Originally posted by tabindex I'd prefer games to bring back the old EQ Legends server model where players can pay more to play on a server that doesn't have poor people on it.
This made me spit out my coffee laughing.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Theocritus It depends on how you value money...To some people 1K a year is nothing as they will break it down to how much they spend a day gaming and say "well its ONLY 3 dollars a day!"...... Some people make/have alot of money to waste and others dont.
It is also about the perceived value of a game.
I spend more than 1k on toy collection every year because i value those toys, and there is no cheaper competition.
However, there are so many F2P MMO, and you have to ask if a sub game is worth $15 more a month compared to game B. I *can* afford $15 a month but why should i pay when a F2P game provides as much fun?
If i would have to feel bad about 50-200$ a year for 1 MMO i would stop playing all together and start working again for i must have done something wrong in my live....
It is my choice anyway and i don't think i can be milked if i choose to spend the money if i would be forced to play 1 MMO no matter if i want to or not than it would be different.
I understand that a lot of ppl love the B2P model and thats fine but claiming that we who still pay a sub are getting milked is ridiculous.
I would always choose a sub over the B2P model if they would offer me the options.(or just get a lifetime sub )
in the past year, I have played AOC (very little), LOTRO and DDO. All of which are free to play.
DDO is a really solid game and a lot of fun.
That said, WOW is simply a magnitude better. I do not have enough hours to play both DDO and WOW a lot.. so for me, the quality of WOW is worth the $15, even though I could have fun for free in DDO.
If I sell you a porsche for $10, but offer to give you a ford Fiesta for free.. which would you take? I guess if you only have $5 to your name, you would say the Fiesta... and then cry that anyone who bought the Porsche is an idiot, right?
Azrile is 100% correct. I play the best games I can, period. If you figure the ammount of time I play MMOs (at least 20 hours a week), we're looking at 20 cents per hour for a subscription. Thats less than I pay for movies, television, books ... pretty much any of my forms of entertainment.
But the question you need to ask youreself, and one it appears the OP has asked, and I know I'm asking now, is what is that $15 a month really buying you? I'm a big WoW fan, but they don't exactly speed new content to you. If anything they are one of the slower companies and providing new content. Certainly much slower than games like Rift and EQ2, to name a couple.
If they are pumping the content out much faster and other companies, such as ANET with GW and now GW2 manage to run their servers and provide new content, then what exactly are you getting for your $15 a month? Now days in WoW you don't even get all the items for free any longer as they sell many of the cooler pets and mounts for extra cash.
Again, not bashing WoW as I played that game for 7 years and loved it, but I am now questioning what they provide to justify the $15 a month?
Generally, I disagree with this statement. There are multiple reasons to pay subscriptions of ten to fifteen dollars a month for an entire year, though I would be hard pressed to find you an example of a currently thriving MMO that's absolutely deserving of the dedication. A game as massive and open as something like UO or EVE online? Totally worth it from my perspective, especially if there's even the slightest bit of transparency regarding what my subscription is being used for in terms of furthering development.
Honestly, if GW2 came with territorial control, a large housing or town building system, or anything that offered some manner of permanence and ownership within their world, I'd rather pay a subscription to help ensure the developers what they need to continue expanding upon the concept. (Guild Wars 2 is just an example)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Or your supporting a developer as you can as you have disposable income and dont have to penny pinch over what MMO to play. I'm not subbed to any I am playing and ejoying GW2 and will make a purchase each month irrespective of if I need it to show my support.
Since I don't WANT to play more than one mmoprg - then I have not felt being 'milked' when I payed more than 50$ / year.
Problem is though mmorpg's for few years already don't bring long-term gameplay and GAME ENVIROMENT I would like.
Since I was able to pay subsciption only becase mmorog's provided me with unique game enviroment.
Now their game enviroment remind me more of lobby multiplayer games with all this 'matchmaking' and combat focus or / and of single player games with solo-orientation and railed dull 'cinematic' experience. Of course they break separate mmorpg virtual world 'bubble' with injecting RL direct connection RMT (cash shops, rmah, gold selling).
So kinda not worth spending on-going money (sub or microtransaction) and in almost all cases not even worth playing.
Since I don't WANT to play more than one mmoprg - then I have not felt being 'milked' when I payed more than 50$ / year.
Problem is though mmorpg's for few years already don't bring long-term gameplay and GAME ENVIROMENT I would like.
Since I was able to pay subsciption only becase mmorog's provided me with unique game enviroment.
I highly doubt there are that many of you. Most people i know play multiple games. Personally, i wouldn't want to be stuck in ONE single MMO. Any game, no matter how good (even WOW), get boring eventually.
I probably won't play ANY sub game after my wow annual pass is up. There is just no point. There are so many different games to play & experience.
While I agree with the general sentiment here, that 15$ isn't that big of a deal, I can't help but wonder what I am getting for my money.
I play WoW and I enjoyed most of my time there. But I feel a little upset when it takes them 9-12 months to release new updates and patches.
ICC lasted a year, DS 11 months. And in that time I gave them at least 150$ (Well not in DS case since I got fed up and quit 5 months ago).
That can really be considered milking.
You're doing it wrong. Find a good guild, sell mount runs, and you can sell the gold thats split between the raiders at around $40-60 a month per raider for a 10 man guild, more for 25. Sure it's frowned upon, but at least you won't say "I keep wasting $15 a month", instead you can say you're making money while playing a game. Even if said amount of money is minor.
If you're lucky... with the way prices are headed that could be a tough feat soon even for sedans.
So basically the OP found a new way to write a long post on how he likes F2P? Yes, there is a big crowd that likes F2P games. F2P and subscription are different models and different approaches. I wouldn't say that because you like F2P, someone playing a sub game is a sucker. Just as me, who only plays sub games, don't refer to the crowd that likes F2P as suckers.
If something is good, I will pay, a sub fee is so small, compared to other things you spend money on imo. If something is not good, I will not pay...
I am not a f2p champion, like the OP, I prefer sub based games with no cash shop, but that seems to not be possible anymore...So atleast no p2w. I do not trust f2p mmos for the most part, when the shop is your only source of revenue, you have to make sure people are using it. I like to know what I am spending, and if it is $15/mo then I know thats it...
I am more concerned with a quality product, than what it is costing me, as in the last 6 years, not much worth a crap has come out imo...I am also part of the thread that if something was mind blowing, I would pay $50/mo, not a year for it....Keep in mind, nothing out comes close to meeting this standard for me. I havent had time to play GW2 to know one way or the other, but it hasn't grabbed me, thought I would include that since someone will bring it up.
People scoff at this, but people pay more than $50 on a phone mo, bundle packages of phone/net/cable, a lot of people pay close to $200 for them a month...So yeah, if it was MIND BLOWINGLY GOOD.....Yeah....current crap....I wont even play if it was free on a lot of it (TOR being the latest in that catagory).
The OP may think all this f2p stuff is making things better, I think things are trending down, but I guess you don't have to put any money out to know something is crap....But a free trial will help with that anyway on a sub game.
Since I don't WANT to play more than one mmoprg - then I have not felt being 'milked' when I payed more than 50$ / year.
Problem is though mmorpg's for few years already don't bring long-term gameplay and GAME ENVIROMENT I would like.
Since I was able to pay subsciption only becase mmorog's provided me with unique game enviroment.
I highly doubt there are that many of you. Most people i know play multiple games. Personally, i wouldn't want to be stuck in ONE single MMO. Any game, no matter how good (even WOW), get boring eventually.
I probably won't play ANY sub game after my wow annual pass is up. There is just no point. There are so many different games to play & experience.
Add me and the wife to the list, we have been playing 1 MMO for 99% of the time, since UO was released. If something is good, thats what you want to play....When something is mediocre, and for the ADD crowd, yeah, I guess you have to mass consume probably... I believe you have stated though, how you pretty much like single player/solo type mmo/games that are basically throw away... So we are on opposite sides of the spectrum.
I would love to find a MMO that I can play for years and enjoy, not Rift (3 months and was forcing myself to play that long, as I had never played anything shorter than 6 months before, so bought a 6 month sub, so I quit with 3 months paid still) and TOR (free month, but I kew I probably wouldn't like it, but bought it to play with friends). Not to kill those games, I got my money worth, but I didn't get the mmo gaming experience that I wanted. I like all aspects, so I like a lot of depth, exploring, large world(s), quality harvesting/crafting....These, you can be max level in a week games just don't do it for me.
Since I don't WANT to play more than one mmoprg - then I have not felt being 'milked' when I payed more than 50$ / year.
Problem is though mmorpg's for few years already don't bring long-term gameplay and GAME ENVIROMENT I would like.
Since I was able to pay subsciption only becase mmorog's provided me with unique game enviroment.
I highly doubt there are that many of you. Most people i know play multiple games. Personally, i wouldn't want to be stuck in ONE single MMO. Any game, no matter how good (even WOW), get boring eventually.
I probably won't play ANY sub game after my wow annual pass is up. There is just no point. There are so many different games to play & experience.
I play multiple games. Just not multiple mmorpg's.
Thing is mmorpg's pure gameplay is not so good, because inseparatable mmorpg features 'pollute it'.
I know several ideas that could make mmorpg's better instantly but at same time they would make them stop being mmorpg's.
Like you said yourself in other thread - transforming mmorpg's in lobby games make their streamlined combat-gameplay more conveniant, more interesting (relatively less time-sinks) and generally better.
More you transform mmorpg's by taking gameplay solutions from lobby-games and single player games, more they are lobby games just with mmorpg tag on them.
It is like taking strategy turn-based game like i.e. Panzer General and changing it's combat into manual demanding, twitch combat taken from e-sport rts games. It might make it's combat more interesting,(at least to some), but at same time game will stop being strategy game. It will be rts game or at best a hybrid.
People don't want to play subscription for current mmorpg's for diffrent reasons, but many people don't want to pay sub for them because their gameplay and gameplay experience are similar to lobby or simple co-op games.
It is same reason why so many devs want to make mmorpg (or just mmo) games sometimes putting 'mmo' tag on games that does not have more 'mmo' features than Quake have.
Because it 'allows' them to add either subcription or microtransactions.
Thing is it work 'both ways'.
People will not pay subsription soon for anything other than game based on 'virtual world' type of concept.
Or for services allowing them to have access to big amount of games ,like PSN Plus but that's offtopic.
Of course virtual world / sandbox games playerbase is niche comparing it to usual mmo / mmorg playerbase.
Most succesful western subscroiption game (EVE) has bit under half a millions subs.
So yeah it is a niche, but a niche that will be able to pay subsciptions. And despite all that's still attractive way to earn money. In some ways it is worse than 'on-going' microtransaction payments, but in other it is better.
While I agree with the general sentiment here, that 15$ isn't that big of a deal, I can't help but wonder what I am getting for my money.
I play WoW and I enjoyed most of my time there. But I feel a little upset when it takes them 9-12 months to release new updates and patches.
ICC lasted a year, DS 11 months. And in that time I gave them at least 150$ (Well not in DS case since I got fed up and quit 5 months ago).
That can really be considered milking.
You're doing it wrong. Find a good guild, sell mount runs, and you can sell the gold thats split between the raiders at around $40-60 a month per raider for a 10 man guild, more for 25. Sure it's frowned upon, but at least you won't say "I keep wasting $15 a month", instead you can say you're making money while playing a game. Even if said amount of money is minor.
I am in a good guild. I have been for the last 5 years. I scored multiple rank 1 WoL records and still hold numerous top 20 positions (evetho I quitted 5 months ago). I am not doing it wrong. I don't care about making money from this game and I doubt anyone does. People just want more content a lot faster and that is it. They've been claiming before every expansion they "WANT and HOPE" to produce updates faster. What does that even mean? If they really wanted to they would be.
in the past year, I have played AOC (very little), LOTRO and DDO. All of which are free to play.
DDO is a really solid game and a lot of fun.
That said, WOW is simply a magnitude better. I do not have enough hours to play both DDO and WOW a lot.. so for me, the quality of WOW is worth the $15, even though I could have fun for free in DDO.
If I sell you a porsche for $10, but offer to give you a ford Fiesta for free.. which would you take? I guess if you only have $5 to your name, you would say the Fiesta... and then cry that anyone who bought the Porsche is an idiot, right?
Azrile is 100% correct. I play the best games I can, period. If you figure the ammount of time I play MMOs (at least 20 hours a week), we're looking at 20 cents per hour for a subscription. Thats less than I pay for movies, television, books ... pretty much any of my forms of entertainment.
But the question you need to ask youreself, and one it appears the OP has asked, and I know I'm asking now, is what is that $15 a month really buying you?
More hourly entertainment than the $30/month I'm paying for cable TV does.
I'm a big WoW fan, but they don't exactly speed new content to you. If anything they are one of the slower companies and providing new content. Certainly much slower than games like Rift and EQ2, to name a couple.
Eh. I played Eve, and... well, I didn't even notice when new content came in, because there was just too much other stuff to do already. I hear they're pretty good about releasing content, but.. well, like I said, I never even noticed.
Whether what WoW provides is worth the $15/month is up to you. It wasn't for me, that's why I quit. If you're paying a subscription fee for a game that you don't actually enjoy, then (and only then) I'd agree with the OP that you're being milked.
Comments
This made me spit out my coffee laughing.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
So OP, who is doing the milking here ?
You play MMO's all year and spend less than $50 ? How many diff games did you play, 4 or 5 mebbe ?
Luckily, you are in the minority. If the average MMO developer earned $10 per player per year, there wouldn't be any MMO's....
It is also about the perceived value of a game.
I spend more than 1k on toy collection every year because i value those toys, and there is no cheaper competition.
However, there are so many F2P MMO, and you have to ask if a sub game is worth $15 more a month compared to game B. I *can* afford $15 a month but why should i pay when a F2P game provides as much fun?
If i would have to feel bad about 50-200$ a year for 1 MMO i would stop playing all together and start working again for i must have done something wrong in my live....
It is my choice anyway and i don't think i can be milked if i choose to spend the money if i would be forced to play 1 MMO no matter if i want to or not than it would be different.
I understand that a lot of ppl love the B2P model and thats fine but claiming that we who still pay a sub are getting milked is ridiculous.
I would always choose a sub over the B2P model if they would offer me the options.(or just get a lifetime sub )
I guess there's only one thing I can say to that.
Moo..
What can men do against such reckless hate?
But the question you need to ask youreself, and one it appears the OP has asked, and I know I'm asking now, is what is that $15 a month really buying you? I'm a big WoW fan, but they don't exactly speed new content to you. If anything they are one of the slower companies and providing new content. Certainly much slower than games like Rift and EQ2, to name a couple.
If they are pumping the content out much faster and other companies, such as ANET with GW and now GW2 manage to run their servers and provide new content, then what exactly are you getting for your $15 a month? Now days in WoW you don't even get all the items for free any longer as they sell many of the cooler pets and mounts for extra cash.
Again, not bashing WoW as I played that game for 7 years and loved it, but I am now questioning what they provide to justify the $15 a month?
Generally, I disagree with this statement. There are multiple reasons to pay subscriptions of ten to fifteen dollars a month for an entire year, though I would be hard pressed to find you an example of a currently thriving MMO that's absolutely deserving of the dedication. A game as massive and open as something like UO or EVE online? Totally worth it from my perspective, especially if there's even the slightest bit of transparency regarding what my subscription is being used for in terms of furthering development.
Honestly, if GW2 came with territorial control, a large housing or town building system, or anything that offered some manner of permanence and ownership within their world, I'd rather pay a subscription to help ensure the developers what they need to continue expanding upon the concept. (Guild Wars 2 is just an example)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Since I don't WANT to play more than one mmoprg - then I have not felt being 'milked' when I payed more than 50$ / year.
Problem is though mmorpg's for few years already don't bring long-term gameplay and GAME ENVIROMENT I would like.
Since I was able to pay subsciption only becase mmorog's provided me with unique game enviroment.
Now their game enviroment remind me more of lobby multiplayer games with all this 'matchmaking' and combat focus or / and of single player games with solo-orientation and railed dull 'cinematic' experience. Of course they break separate mmorpg virtual world 'bubble' with injecting RL direct connection RMT (cash shops, rmah, gold selling).
So kinda not worth spending on-going money (sub or microtransaction) and in almost all cases not even worth playing.
I highly doubt there are that many of you. Most people i know play multiple games. Personally, i wouldn't want to be stuck in ONE single MMO. Any game, no matter how good (even WOW), get boring eventually.
I probably won't play ANY sub game after my wow annual pass is up. There is just no point. There are so many different games to play & experience.
While I agree with the general sentiment here, that 15$ isn't that big of a deal, I can't help but wonder what I am getting for my money.
I play WoW and I enjoyed most of my time there. But I feel a little upset when it takes them 9-12 months to release new updates and patches.
ICC lasted a year, DS 11 months. And in that time I gave them at least 150$ (Well not in DS case since I got fed up and quit 5 months ago).
That can really be considered milking.
You're doing it wrong. Find a good guild, sell mount runs, and you can sell the gold thats split between the raiders at around $40-60 a month per raider for a 10 man guild, more for 25. Sure it's frowned upon, but at least you won't say "I keep wasting $15 a month", instead you can say you're making money while playing a game. Even if said amount of money is minor.
If you're lucky... with the way prices are headed that could be a tough feat soon even for sedans.
So basically the OP found a new way to write a long post on how he likes F2P? Yes, there is a big crowd that likes F2P games. F2P and subscription are different models and different approaches. I wouldn't say that because you like F2P, someone playing a sub game is a sucker. Just as me, who only plays sub games, don't refer to the crowd that likes F2P as suckers.
If something is good, I will pay, a sub fee is so small, compared to other things you spend money on imo. If something is not good, I will not pay...
I am not a f2p champion, like the OP, I prefer sub based games with no cash shop, but that seems to not be possible anymore...So atleast no p2w. I do not trust f2p mmos for the most part, when the shop is your only source of revenue, you have to make sure people are using it. I like to know what I am spending, and if it is $15/mo then I know thats it...
I am more concerned with a quality product, than what it is costing me, as in the last 6 years, not much worth a crap has come out imo...I am also part of the thread that if something was mind blowing, I would pay $50/mo, not a year for it....Keep in mind, nothing out comes close to meeting this standard for me. I havent had time to play GW2 to know one way or the other, but it hasn't grabbed me, thought I would include that since someone will bring it up.
People scoff at this, but people pay more than $50 on a phone mo, bundle packages of phone/net/cable, a lot of people pay close to $200 for them a month...So yeah, if it was MIND BLOWINGLY GOOD.....Yeah....current crap....I wont even play if it was free on a lot of it (TOR being the latest in that catagory).
The OP may think all this f2p stuff is making things better, I think things are trending down, but I guess you don't have to put any money out to know something is crap....But a free trial will help with that anyway on a sub game.
Add me and the wife to the list, we have been playing 1 MMO for 99% of the time, since UO was released. If something is good, thats what you want to play....When something is mediocre, and for the ADD crowd, yeah, I guess you have to mass consume probably... I believe you have stated though, how you pretty much like single player/solo type mmo/games that are basically throw away... So we are on opposite sides of the spectrum.
I would love to find a MMO that I can play for years and enjoy, not Rift (3 months and was forcing myself to play that long, as I had never played anything shorter than 6 months before, so bought a 6 month sub, so I quit with 3 months paid still) and TOR (free month, but I kew I probably wouldn't like it, but bought it to play with friends). Not to kill those games, I got my money worth, but I didn't get the mmo gaming experience that I wanted. I like all aspects, so I like a lot of depth, exploring, large world(s), quality harvesting/crafting....These, you can be max level in a week games just don't do it for me.
I play multiple games. Just not multiple mmorpg's.
Thing is mmorpg's pure gameplay is not so good, because inseparatable mmorpg features 'pollute it'.
I know several ideas that could make mmorpg's better instantly but at same time they would make them stop being mmorpg's.
Like you said yourself in other thread - transforming mmorpg's in lobby games make their streamlined combat-gameplay more conveniant, more interesting (relatively less time-sinks) and generally better.
More you transform mmorpg's by taking gameplay solutions from lobby-games and single player games, more they are lobby games just with mmorpg tag on them.
It is like taking strategy turn-based game like i.e. Panzer General and changing it's combat into manual demanding, twitch combat taken from e-sport rts games. It might make it's combat more interesting,(at least to some), but at same time game will stop being strategy game. It will be rts game or at best a hybrid.
People don't want to play subscription for current mmorpg's for diffrent reasons, but many people don't want to pay sub for them because their gameplay and gameplay experience are similar to lobby or simple co-op games.
It is same reason why so many devs want to make mmorpg (or just mmo) games sometimes putting 'mmo' tag on games that does not have more 'mmo' features than Quake have.
Because it 'allows' them to add either subcription or microtransactions.
Thing is it work 'both ways'.
People will not pay subsription soon for anything other than game based on 'virtual world' type of concept.
Or for services allowing them to have access to big amount of games ,like PSN Plus but that's offtopic.
Of course virtual world / sandbox games playerbase is niche comparing it to usual mmo / mmorg playerbase.
Most succesful western subscroiption game (EVE) has bit under half a millions subs.
So yeah it is a niche, but a niche that will be able to pay subsciptions. And despite all that's still attractive way to earn money. In some ways it is worse than 'on-going' microtransaction payments, but in other it is better.
I am in a good guild. I have been for the last 5 years. I scored multiple rank 1 WoL records and still hold numerous top 20 positions (evetho I quitted 5 months ago). I am not doing it wrong. I don't care about making money from this game and I doubt anyone does. People just want more content a lot faster and that is it. They've been claiming before every expansion they "WANT and HOPE" to produce updates faster. What does that even mean? If they really wanted to they would be.
The Original Post is based on what? That you like DCUO and find that now its free its worth playing.. This is all just an Opinion..
I been paying to play EVE, in-game currency and real currency for almost 10yrs.
If you like a game and it entertains you there are plenty of ways to rationalize, why you do or do not spend money on it.
Its like Eating a Dinner, sure you can go to the soup kitchen and enjoy the ambience and lower end cuisine, you wouldn't find at a McDonalds..
Of course is he saying that $15.00 is too much for him on top of the cost of his internet connection that he used to post this topic?
More hourly entertainment than the $30/month I'm paying for cable TV does.
Eh. I played Eve, and... well, I didn't even notice when new content came in, because there was just too much other stuff to do already. I hear they're pretty good about releasing content, but.. well, like I said, I never even noticed.
Whether what WoW provides is worth the $15/month is up to you. It wasn't for me, that's why I quit. If you're paying a subscription fee for a game that you don't actually enjoy, then (and only then) I'd agree with the OP that you're being milked.
$50 is about: