Originally posted by Terranah This is the first intelligent thing I've heard Smed say since....well, he's never said anything intelligent until now.
Well, he was the one who originally pitched the idea of a 3D MMO to his company, before UO or AC even existed. He also recruited Brad McQuaid. I'd say that was pretty smart.
It's a no brainer that a major part of the issue with longevity these days in mmos is due to the fact it is all scripted content and next to no actual longer term style community/player driven content.
When you churn out mmos akin to single player games, it's no wonder people lose interest in the rapidly.
It makes me laugh to think of how many tens of millions of dollars I could have saved several game companies over the last few years had they sat me down for a chat about MMOs. ROFL.
See, some of you like to sit back and talk about how this website is full of people who complain about everything. I see it differently. I think a lot of the people here are more on the bleeding-edge of MMO gaming, and some of us have seen the writing on the wall for Themepark games for years.
It's true that complainers tend to spend more time on boards, but it's also true that hardcore players and mmo enthusiasts who have been playing for a very long time do as well. If I had a game company, I would have regular online focus groups to discuss mmo gaming in general with the community. It's not hard to weed out people who are just eternally depressed about everything.
I rather like that statement. That may also be one of the reasons why Eve does so well is because of the CSM. True, the effectiveness of the CSM has been mixed at times, and also depends on who you ask, but the very fact that it is there and that CCP both listens to them and directly modifies the game based off of the biggest pain points that the CSM brings to their attention is solid proof that they really do care about their customer base, and are committed to constant improvement based on customer feedback. I honestly think that every single MMO both current and future needs at least that level of live interaction between the game developer and their customers, and it could really help the long-term quality of MMOs.
Originally posted by zethcarn Again talk is cheap. You can't trust Smed any further than you can throw him.
Nevertheless it is illuminating that he has been playing EVE for some years, and not just grinding missions but out here in 0.0 space. At the very least it means that he's been thoroughly exposed to a working model of an MMO experience other than Yet Another Orks And Elves Themepark.
And there are lots of things EVE does really well that would translate well into other games - the EVE economy, the PLEX system (the success of PLEX will surely have stirred Smedley's greedy black heart), tiered security status areas and so on - these could all translate quite well into any MMO genre.
It is a great idea in the right hands,SOE is NOT the right people to do this.I quit EQ2 because their greed was overwhelming.
They created the dungeon maker but all centered around cash shop.So here i was paying a subscription of 15 bucks and they wanted more lol.
I see this more as a very lazy gimmick for developers to cash in on yet even less effort.
You can't plop down an empty map and tell players to fight for resources.I know exactly what would happen >>>botting and tons of it.I also see in the hands of SOE a huge cash shop because resources would run out,then you have to buy from the cash shop or the rmt botters lol.
I would rather see users submit game ideas,then they get posted for players to vote on.Then the staff works with those ideas and puts them on a test server.One month testing then if it gets a finalized postive vote,it makes it into game.
I can download the UDK for free,why would i pay someone like SOE,to let me use the program?As long as you don't profit from the UDK it is free to use.
If i am going to pay someone like SOE,i want them to make the content.If you want 15 bucks a month,.i want the next content to be made with that 15 bucks.That is 180 bucks a year,when i only paid 60 bucks to buy the game that took 4 years to make.
I do not want a developer to plop down an empty game and say here farm some nodes.I could see it go even further,you need to buy a blueprint from the cash shop to make that house lol.You want protrection?Well our cash shop has reinforced walls so your house cannot be destroyed.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm not a fan of when talking heads try to generate BUZZ in their 'announcement' statements AND actually describe the state of mmorpgs seriously:
1) Market
2) Design
It's mashing a lot of different ambitions together. And it's been seen when ppl do this, there's more hype than substance to what they say: More attempt to put the right words in players' ears than actual concrete example pulling it off already?
Because it probably is a good case for sandbox, especially after the latest SWTOR disappointment from profits and players for that direction. Just look at Minecraft's 7m where the community builds stuff that anyone else in the community could build and interact with and see what players have put hours into designing.
The only reason I began to respect Smedley is that he actually admitted to making horrible mistakes with SWG, EQ2 and Vanguard.
I wouldn't buy or trash a game based on the Sony tag, but I would look at it on its own merits. Time will tell if he's full of crap about the PS2 sandbox elements or not. (Sounds unexpectedly awesome I must say)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
You can have good PvE scripted content and still have longevity as well. But you can not give out raid gear like candy on halloween, and expect people to play long. When players can burn to cap in 2 weeks you can expect the longevity to be non existant. When the content is so mind nummingly easy a 5 year old can play, you cant expect longevity. Every single past PvE game or a pve/pvp mix game has been like this from GWII all the way back to a few years post WoW release.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
battles over territory and resources, gathering, player housing and cities outside of a specific zone, crafting.. it all could thrive so well. SWG was an excellent adventure into that territory. It may have been broken by certain changes but the spirit was there.
EVE is even more ambitious and at the higher levels of involvement is spectacular in it's achievements.
I think there is a market..how big, not sure. It's there though!
For those of you interested in sandbox MMOs, you should definitely check out the upcoming game "Origins of Malu".
Here's an article explaining the game's vision and the direction it is currently going (very sandbox-y with player driven content). It was also at PAX just a few weeks ago, and got some very positive responses.
Isn't that what everyone has been begging for on these forums? It's a shame some people rather hold a grudge.
"put down their own bases there and other players can come and obliterate them."
That is fucking awesome! I didn't know PS2 would take it even further than base captures. Smed is doing exactly what some of us "niche" MMO gamers are wanting.
All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.
The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.
Trust not the Smed.
(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)
No there is no untapped market for Sandbox games. sometimes companies make the big mistake of listening too much to what players say they want. Bioware totally fell into this trap. Everyone said hey we don't want endgame grinding and progression like other MMOs have we want a MMO based around story. Well they really got exactly what they asked for and then 3 months in huge drops in subs and game in spinning downwards.
Same thing with Sandbox games, everyone likes the CONCEPT of a sandbox game but most players really don't like the actual reality of playing a sandbox game. Lets face it, there are not as many hardcore MMO players anymore, people are starting to prioritize and lots of the old MMO players are moving into a more casual role. Sandbox games do not work for casual players, it is not that they are harder then themepark games it is just that it takes a lot more time to advance and do things. Now you may not agree with themepark style but the truth is the only Sandbox game that could ever hold over 1M players would be a hybrid sandbox/themepark.
Now in my opinion I feel there is a hugh following that will or want to play a sandbox game, but......for some reason when we look at the more sandboxish MMO's it seems developers aswell certain players feel that PVP makes a sandbox. Obvious a sandbox MMORPG does need PVP, but in a true sandbox game (again in my opinion) everything is optional.
So if a sandbox game has forced PVP then to me it aint a sandbox game because it does not allow me to be free to do what I want but am again forced at the wishes of the developers because they couldn't come up with allot more feature's then take the easy path of PVP so-called content.
It's the dynamics in a player run economy, decay on all weapons/armor which create's a market for those into crafting, housing but fully free so no you need to be in a guild to place a house within the guild base but place a house where you desire.
It has to be a virtual world, where it's obvious that certain things are sci-fi or fantasy, but overall the world needs to act as real as possible and before anyone say's I play game to escape reality let me ask them how many dragons have they slay'd in rl, how many spaceships have they build, how many differerent planets, worlds have they seen in their live.
I just want to immerse myself within a universe or a unknown world in in those worlds there is more to it then war, as we already have so many game genre's that already focus on combat and MMORPG use to be a genre that mixed allot of genre's together.
All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.
The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.
Trust not the Smed.
(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)
False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed. LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players. That failed horrible.
P.S. That is your Opinion and many do not share it. PS2 will be bigger than DUST and PS1 was.
All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.
The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.
Trust not the Smed.
(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)
False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed. LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players. That failed horrible.
Not only that, but Smed has admitted several times it was a huge mistake and that he's sorry and regrets it. If anything were to convince a developer that sandbox is the way to go, it'd be that.
Smedley: [...] At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve.
Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content. We need to be doing both in order to be successful. And that's our plan.
Originally posted by Sephros Player generated objectives are huge in the longevity of a game. Glad someone is starting to read whats been infront of them for a decade or more.
It's Smedley dude. If you were talking to him about peanuts he'd praise the offering peanuts to players in mmorpgs and suggest that SOE is developing in that direction.
I've never seen Smed described so aptly.
Also Mittens isn't a troll, he's a professional bullshitter. There's a difference.
The bullshitter makes money.
I know, that one article made him a millionaire, right?
You probably don't play EVE, or if you do or did, never had anything to do with the GSF; either as an ally member or enemy.
it's actually funny, becaue the people who have the most to say about the guy, never actually have anything to do with him.
Seems a little silly people hate on an avatar and transfer that to the real man, who coinsidentally is raising tens of thousands of dollars for the widow of a real friend of his. I can only imagine the kinds of things you do for people.
All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.
The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.
Trust not the Smed.
(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)
False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed. LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players. That failed horrible.
First, if there is such proof that LA was "responsible" for it, I have never seen it.
Second and more importantly, SOE personel were SOLELY responsible for executing and coding every single thing in SWG and they are wholly responsible for what a buggy, unfinished, broken mess that game was. Twice as much for the NGE, which SOE people programmed 100% of.
Not a single LA person ever wrote a single line of code for SWG, that was all SOE, and frankly the broken, buggy, and unfinished state is a prime reason SWG failed, as much as anything else. And that is all on Smed's management.
I need not also list the numerous lies/misrepresentations Smed has publically made over the years, the list would be too long.
In short, nothing Smed says can be believed with a record like that, and based on SOE's long and undistinguished history, it is very doubtful they could ever make a techinally solid, low bug/exploit game, even if they wanted to.
The chances of any project Smed is ever involved with and coming out well are very small.
And yes, talk, especially from a person with such a terrible record of telling the truth such as Smed, is very cheap, indeed.
Originally posted by bcbully I'm not even a fps player, but ps2 is shaping up to be pretty epic.
Agreed and if EQN is anything like I hope it is I'll have a reason to buy a Station Pass. After watching videos of the environments in PS2 using the Forgelight engine (light projection, realistic morning/evening, etc.) I am really excited for the world that EQN will have.
If you take that game world and add a structured storyline with "emergent gameplay" (which I assume to be player creation tools) that allows some freedom of play I think EQN could be something special. It's certainly the type of game I've been looking to make a home in. You just can't do that anymore in games that develop everything from top to bottom.
My main concerns about the game are combat and questing. Time will tell on these things.
Hey wow, that'a actually something cool from Smed! WTG!
"At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve. Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content."
If only these were golden words imprinted on every room in every MMO studio ever!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Well, he was the one who originally pitched the idea of a 3D MMO to his company, before UO or AC even existed. He also recruited Brad McQuaid. I'd say that was pretty smart.
I rather like that statement. That may also be one of the reasons why Eve does so well is because of the CSM. True, the effectiveness of the CSM has been mixed at times, and also depends on who you ask, but the very fact that it is there and that CCP both listens to them and directly modifies the game based off of the biggest pain points that the CSM brings to their attention is solid proof that they really do care about their customer base, and are committed to constant improvement based on customer feedback. I honestly think that every single MMO both current and future needs at least that level of live interaction between the game developer and their customers, and it could really help the long-term quality of MMOs.
Where's the any key?
Nevertheless it is illuminating that he has been playing EVE for some years, and not just grinding missions but out here in 0.0 space. At the very least it means that he's been thoroughly exposed to a working model of an MMO experience other than Yet Another Orks And Elves Themepark.
And there are lots of things EVE does really well that would translate well into other games - the EVE economy, the PLEX system (the success of PLEX will surely have stirred Smedley's greedy black heart), tiered security status areas and so on - these could all translate quite well into any MMO genre.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
It is a great idea in the right hands,SOE is NOT the right people to do this.I quit EQ2 because their greed was overwhelming.
They created the dungeon maker but all centered around cash shop.So here i was paying a subscription of 15 bucks and they wanted more lol.
I see this more as a very lazy gimmick for developers to cash in on yet even less effort.
You can't plop down an empty map and tell players to fight for resources.I know exactly what would happen >>>botting and tons of it.I also see in the hands of SOE a huge cash shop because resources would run out,then you have to buy from the cash shop or the rmt botters lol.
I would rather see users submit game ideas,then they get posted for players to vote on.Then the staff works with those ideas and puts them on a test server.One month testing then if it gets a finalized postive vote,it makes it into game.
I can download the UDK for free,why would i pay someone like SOE,to let me use the program?As long as you don't profit from the UDK it is free to use.
If i am going to pay someone like SOE,i want them to make the content.If you want 15 bucks a month,.i want the next content to be made with that 15 bucks.That is 180 bucks a year,when i only paid 60 bucks to buy the game that took 4 years to make.
I do not want a developer to plop down an empty game and say here farm some nodes.I could see it go even further,you need to buy a blueprint from the cash shop to make that house lol.You want protrection?Well our cash shop has reinforced walls so your house cannot be destroyed.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm not a fan of when talking heads try to generate BUZZ in their 'announcement' statements AND actually describe the state of mmorpgs seriously:
1) Market
2) Design
It's mashing a lot of different ambitions together. And it's been seen when ppl do this, there's more hype than substance to what they say: More attempt to put the right words in players' ears than actual concrete example pulling it off already?
Because it probably is a good case for sandbox, especially after the latest SWTOR disappointment from profits and players for that direction. Just look at Minecraft's 7m where the community builds stuff that anyone else in the community could build and interact with and see what players have put hours into designing.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The only reason I began to respect Smedley is that he actually admitted to making horrible mistakes with SWG, EQ2 and Vanguard.
I wouldn't buy or trash a game based on the Sony tag, but I would look at it on its own merits. Time will tell if he's full of crap about the PS2 sandbox elements or not. (Sounds unexpectedly awesome I must say)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
oh man, sandbox is so good.
battles over territory and resources, gathering, player housing and cities outside of a specific zone, crafting.. it all could thrive so well. SWG was an excellent adventure into that territory. It may have been broken by certain changes but the spirit was there.
EVE is even more ambitious and at the higher levels of involvement is spectacular in it's achievements.
I think there is a market..how big, not sure. It's there though!
For those of you interested in sandbox MMOs, you should definitely check out the upcoming game "Origins of Malu".
Here's an article explaining the game's vision and the direction it is currently going (very sandbox-y with player driven content). It was also at PAX just a few weeks ago, and got some very positive responses.
"emergent gameplay experiences"
Isn't that what everyone has been begging for on these forums? It's a shame some people rather hold a grudge.
"put down their own bases there and other players can come and obliterate them."
That is fucking awesome! I didn't know PS2 would take it even further than base captures. Smed is doing exactly what some of us "niche" MMO gamers are wanting.
All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.
The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.
Trust not the Smed.
(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)
Now in my opinion I feel there is a hugh following that will or want to play a sandbox game, but......for some reason when we look at the more sandboxish MMO's it seems developers aswell certain players feel that PVP makes a sandbox. Obvious a sandbox MMORPG does need PVP, but in a true sandbox game (again in my opinion) everything is optional.
So if a sandbox game has forced PVP then to me it aint a sandbox game because it does not allow me to be free to do what I want but am again forced at the wishes of the developers because they couldn't come up with allot more feature's then take the easy path of PVP so-called content.
It's the dynamics in a player run economy, decay on all weapons/armor which create's a market for those into crafting, housing but fully free so no you need to be in a guild to place a house within the guild base but place a house where you desire.
It has to be a virtual world, where it's obvious that certain things are sci-fi or fantasy, but overall the world needs to act as real as possible and before anyone say's I play game to escape reality let me ask them how many dragons have they slay'd in rl, how many spaceships have they build, how many differerent planets, worlds have they seen in their live.
I just want to immerse myself within a universe or a unknown world in in those worlds there is more to it then war, as we already have so many game genre's that already focus on combat and MMORPG use to be a genre that mixed allot of genre's together.
False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed. LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players. That failed horrible.
P.S. That is your Opinion and many do not share it. PS2 will be bigger than DUST and PS1 was.
Sooner or Later
Not only that, but Smed has admitted several times it was a huge mistake and that he's sorry and regrets it. If anything were to convince a developer that sandbox is the way to go, it'd be that.
DF Unholy Wars... coming 20th Nov, Sandbox conquest dream
Many people said that 10 years ago. Welcome to where MMOs should have been, Smedley.
I wont buy shit from smed, and his praise and stories are bs like anything he serves.
I know, that one article made him a millionaire, right?
You probably don't play EVE, or if you do or did, never had anything to do with the GSF; either as an ally member or enemy.
it's actually funny, becaue the people who have the most to say about the guy, never actually have anything to do with him.
Seems a little silly people hate on an avatar and transfer that to the real man, who coinsidentally is raising tens of thousands of dollars for the widow of a real friend of his. I can only imagine the kinds of things you do for people.
First, if there is such proof that LA was "responsible" for it, I have never seen it.
Second and more importantly, SOE personel were SOLELY responsible for executing and coding every single thing in SWG and they are wholly responsible for what a buggy, unfinished, broken mess that game was. Twice as much for the NGE, which SOE people programmed 100% of.
Not a single LA person ever wrote a single line of code for SWG, that was all SOE, and frankly the broken, buggy, and unfinished state is a prime reason SWG failed, as much as anything else. And that is all on Smed's management.
I need not also list the numerous lies/misrepresentations Smed has publically made over the years, the list would be too long.
In short, nothing Smed says can be believed with a record like that, and based on SOE's long and undistinguished history, it is very doubtful they could ever make a techinally solid, low bug/exploit game, even if they wanted to.
The chances of any project Smed is ever involved with and coming out well are very small.
And yes, talk, especially from a person with such a terrible record of telling the truth such as Smed, is very cheap, indeed.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Agreed and if EQN is anything like I hope it is I'll have a reason to buy a Station Pass. After watching videos of the environments in PS2 using the Forgelight engine (light projection, realistic morning/evening, etc.) I am really excited for the world that EQN will have.
If you take that game world and add a structured storyline with "emergent gameplay" (which I assume to be player creation tools) that allows some freedom of play I think EQN could be something special. It's certainly the type of game I've been looking to make a home in. You just can't do that anymore in games that develop everything from top to bottom.
My main concerns about the game are combat and questing. Time will tell on these things.
Hey wow, that'a actually something cool from Smed! WTG!
"At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve. Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content."
If only these were golden words imprinted on every room in every MMO studio ever!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert