Originally posted by VirusDancer Originally posted by Z3R01I would have purchased this day one if it was Buy to play.The games not worth a subscription. Honestly I don't think any game on the market is worth a subscription...
Do games offer as much if not more than they did back in 1997? Keeping in mind that while it may be a case of not necessarily liking what they offer...do they offer as much if not more? Did you not pay subs back in 1997? If the answer to both of those is yes, how could you say that no game on the market is worth a sub?
I hate when people make this argument. It doesn't matter what was happening in 1997, TSW is NOT competing with games from 1997. It's competing with games in 2012 and when you take a look at what's out there, no it's not worth a sub fee.
It's Aoc all over again, expect pvp to go untouched while they add a bunch of raids and stuff.
Hasn't swtor and gw2 taught mmo devs Make your endgame for hardcore pveers = fail Make your endgame for everyone else = success
For me, this is true. If they only keep adding raids, I'm not interested.
I like the *potential* this game has for 3-faction pvp and for exploration and for innovation in other aspects of the world. Faction balance, however, is an issue. Why do so many people roll Templar? I'm a Dragon, and it's really a disadvantage now, even the last time I checked on Cerberus Fusang which was today. There was me and one other Dragon and Fusang was totally Templar. It was discouraging because I re-rolled on Cerberus because it was the most balanced server.
I don't need raids. WoW and Rift have that covered and I already have max-level toons over there if I want to pick up grinding for gear again (which I don't because I'm done with that game).
I would have purchased this day one if it was Buy to play.
The games not worth a subscription.
Honestly I don't think any game on the market is worth a subscription...
Do games offer as much if not more than they did back in 1997? Keeping in mind that while it may be a case of not necessarily liking what they offer...do they offer as much if not more? Did you not pay subs back in 1997? If the answer to both of those is yes, how could you say that no game on the market is worth a sub?
Doesn't really matter if they offer the same or more than they did in 97, mainly because there was so little competition, and if you wanted to play an mmo, you had to pay. Today there is much more competition and some of it doesn't require a subscription fee. Thus, in 97 if you wanted to play you paid, today you actually have options if you want to play but don't want a monthly fee.
That avoids the question.
Those games, UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, EVE and even WoW that were good enough have been changed so drastically that they are no longer the same experiences... so no they are not worth the subscription price.
In this day and age with the way the economy is and how much competition the market has to ask for 180+ dollars for one game yearly is assaine.
I don't think any game will ever be worth a subscription fee again.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
Its unfortunately very sad to see this happen. Im not sure how they plan to recover from this, when shakeups like this happen in companies usually projects lifetimes are cut short. Not sure how some folks don't see how losing your lead designer will affect the games future.
Originally posted by Dragonantis Wow, was the game doing that bad, I thought it was good.
Same here. I can look at the game, and see that they've done something that looks "good" to me, but I don't want to buy the game and spend money on a subscription. I haven't nailed down why, but there it is. Probably because I have other games I can play without a subscription.
I did not think the game would sell as poorly as it did though. I thought their predictions based on AoC would be pretty close to what the game actually did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
I have yet to see anything that the F2P and B2P games have done to progress.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
I have yet to see anything that the F2P and B2P games have done to progress.
Its more than the business model. Its the ideas to expand the genre.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
I have yet to see anything that the F2P and B2P games have done to progress.
Its more than the business model. Its the ideas to expand the genre.
Sorry but the people with ideas want to get paid. They aren't going to spend time to work on their craft with no return. I like your thoughts but right now the investment to bring those ideas to the general public cost money. I don't expect any of the F2P or B2P games to really take off. If they were that good one of them would have already dethroned the all mighty sub based titan known as WoW.
Even Eve has a sub and many consider that to be one of the more successful games done by a small company.
Creating MMOs take allot of people to do. Its not like painting, sculpting, writing music that can all be done by one person. And even then once they create the idea it takes the big company with the $$ to bring it to the masses. Just look at why many artists are on board with putting an end to pirated copies of their idea. Without the money to live they cannot continue working on those ideas.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
I have yet to see anything that the F2P and B2P games have done to progress.
Its more than the business model. Its the ideas to expand the genre.
Sorry but the people with ideas want to get paid. They aren't going to spend time to work on their craft with no return. I like your thoughts but right now the investment to bring those ideas to the general public cost money. I don't expect any of the F2P or B2P games to really take off. If they were that good one of them would have already dethroned the all mighty sub based titan known as WoW.
Even Eve has a sub and many consider that to be one of the more successful games done by a small company.
Creating MMOs take allot of people to do. Its not like painting, sculpting, writing music that can all be done by one person. And even then once they create the idea it takes the big company with the $$ to bring it to the masses. Just look at why many artists are on board with putting an end to pirated copies of their idea. Without the money to live they cannot continue working on those ideas.
F2P and B2P have already taken off. Just in other genres more so than in MMOs. There are many mmos that would have died if it weren't for their f2p conversion. What we need is for mmos to come out with these models since release though, like PS2, Neverwinter and GW2.
BTW, I do believe there is still space for subs. But it would need to be an extraordinary mmo these days to justify a price tag.
Originally posted by erictlewis I got a bad fealing that tsw is going to get the axe if this keeps up. I can go hours of gameplay and never see another individual until i head to the loby area of either london or argatha.
Many times after layoffs come server merges.
not much to merge here, thers only 1 server (hardware)
I love the game, hope it doesn´t get hurt by these lay offs.
Still many things to improve in PVP.
Yes, the monthly sub it´s costly, it should be lower, and the discount in longer subscription periods should be bigger.
But i will continue to sub, because it has unique features, love the pve, the combat system is way better than most mmorpg (at least i can move, dodge, and still able to fire, cast). And the wheel is a great idea, just love the system, and we have to think to do the quest, choose the decks, the abilities and so on. It´s a game that makes me think and not just go from hub to hub doing quest that have no meaning to the story.
In before doomsayers and usual pointless mess of people speculating about things they have no idea about.
Anyway, as long as Ragnar remains, there won't be any no big problems with game's direction and game won't be affected that much.
Yeah... because when a developer lays off 50% of it's staff, everything's peachy keen.
TSW didn't make nearly as many sales as they hoped... and now it's got 50% less manpower behind it, pushing forward. Yeah, it's gonna be fine..
/sarcasm
SOE has reduced their entire staff by 50% two times, closing down several of their studios over the past years.... reducing their original staff by a whopping total of 75% !
And except for SWG, all of SOE's own developed games are still up and running.
What funcom should do is continue to cater for its current audience, and build its niche slowly. Do something similar to Eve Online, if you can make your current audience happy you will slowly attract new players.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
8 tiny instanced areas with a lobby and instanced dungeons are not quality and definitely don't make an "MMO."
Originally posted by shinkan What funcom should do is continue to cater for its current audience, and build its niche slowly. Do something similar to Eve Online, if you can make your current audience happy you will slowly attract new players.
I definitely agree with this. Obviously sales projections were wildly optimistic - that's Funcom's problem. However, Ragnar is still committed to monthly updates to slowly expand the range and reach of TSW. There are plenty of very enthusiastic players in this game right now - and Funcom's best bet is to continue investments to TSW to address the concerns of current players and offer incentives to potential players. Naturally this is going to take time.
Martin Bruusgaard's ouster was bad news - I'm sorry to see it happen.
newer games certainly don't appear to be worth the subs these days, while older games that have perhaps stood the test of time.. and perhaps player patience, clearly do.. not so sure how thats going to go with WoW after MoP... as i have a few misgivings about it personally.. but i know for one thing that Eve is definitely more than worth its sub. Cant think of any others offhand at the moment that i'd consider even playing long term let alone paying for the dubious priviledge of. Sign of the times perhaps. though its probably just me getting older
To an extent, it's one of the reasons I asked him about it. Whether it was a subjective dislike of the current games, whether something else had changed, etc, etc, etc.
The games I would not play, I would not play them whether they had a sub or not. For the games that I enjoy, I would rather pay a sub for them and there are several games that I would likely include in annual rotation.
While a game today may not give me UO - I'd be lying to say that games today do not offer just as much in their own way than what UO offered back in the past...many of them offer far more. It may not be my thing, but there's no denying it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
I hate when people make this argument. It doesn't matter what was happening in 1997, TSW is NOT competing with games from 1997. It's competing with games in 2012 and when you take a look at what's out there, no it's not worth a sub fee.
It's Aoc all over again, expect pvp to go untouched while they add a bunch of raids and stuff.
Hasn't swtor and gw2 taught mmo devs
Make your endgame for hardcore pveers = fail
Make your endgame for everyone else = success
For me, this is true. If they only keep adding raids, I'm not interested.
I like the *potential* this game has for 3-faction pvp and for exploration and for innovation in other aspects of the world. Faction balance, however, is an issue. Why do so many people roll Templar? I'm a Dragon, and it's really a disadvantage now, even the last time I checked on Cerberus Fusang which was today. There was me and one other Dragon and Fusang was totally Templar. It was discouraging because I re-rolled on Cerberus because it was the most balanced server.
I don't need raids. WoW and Rift have that covered and I already have max-level toons over there if I want to pick up grinding for gear again (which I don't because I'm done with that game).
Those games, UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, EVE and even WoW that were good enough have been changed so drastically that they are no longer the same experiences... so no they are not worth the subscription price.
In this day and age with the way the economy is and how much competition the market has to ask for 180+ dollars for one game yearly is assaine.
I don't think any game will ever be worth a subscription fee again.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
I spend at least 10 times that on going to the pub, and I only go out once a week.
The market is saturated with players who do not want to pay for quality. They are happy to accept a lesser quality game and when that one has run its course they bounce to the next one.
The worst thing to happen to MMORPGs was for them to go mainstream.
Wow, was the game doing that bad, I thought it was good.
I can't disagree more, thats the problem with the genre. The zealous fans that only want the genre to stay super small and not progress foward. Yes, there are bad things that come from opening up to a wider audience but also a lot of good comes from it. The industry will not grow if it stays stagnet.
Same here. I can look at the game, and see that they've done something that looks "good" to me, but I don't want to buy the game and spend money on a subscription. I haven't nailed down why, but there it is. Probably because I have other games I can play without a subscription.
I did not think the game would sell as poorly as it did though. I thought their predictions based on AoC would be pretty close to what the game actually did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have yet to see anything that the F2P and B2P games have done to progress.
Its more than the business model. Its the ideas to expand the genre.
Sorry but the people with ideas want to get paid. They aren't going to spend time to work on their craft with no return. I like your thoughts but right now the investment to bring those ideas to the general public cost money. I don't expect any of the F2P or B2P games to really take off. If they were that good one of them would have already dethroned the all mighty sub based titan known as WoW.
Even Eve has a sub and many consider that to be one of the more successful games done by a small company.
Creating MMOs take allot of people to do. Its not like painting, sculpting, writing music that can all be done by one person. And even then once they create the idea it takes the big company with the $$ to bring it to the masses. Just look at why many artists are on board with putting an end to pirated copies of their idea. Without the money to live they cannot continue working on those ideas.
F2P and B2P have already taken off. Just in other genres more so than in MMOs. There are many mmos that would have died if it weren't for their f2p conversion. What we need is for mmos to come out with these models since release though, like PS2, Neverwinter and GW2.
BTW, I do believe there is still space for subs. But it would need to be an extraordinary mmo these days to justify a price tag.
not much to merge here, thers only 1 server (hardware)
I love the game, hope it doesn´t get hurt by these lay offs.
Still many things to improve in PVP.
Yes, the monthly sub it´s costly, it should be lower, and the discount in longer subscription periods should be bigger.
But i will continue to sub, because it has unique features, love the pve, the combat system is way better than most mmorpg (at least i can move, dodge, and still able to fire, cast). And the wheel is a great idea, just love the system, and we have to think to do the quest, choose the decks, the abilities and so on. It´s a game that makes me think and not just go from hub to hub doing quest that have no meaning to the story.
Yeah... because when a developer lays off 50% of it's staff, everything's peachy keen.
TSW didn't make nearly as many sales as they hoped... and now it's got 50% less manpower behind it, pushing forward. Yeah, it's gonna be fine..
/sarcasm
SOE has reduced their entire staff by 50% two times, closing down several of their studios over the past years.... reducing their original staff by a whopping total of 75% !
And except for SWG, all of SOE's own developed games are still up and running.
8 tiny instanced areas with a lobby and instanced dungeons are not quality and definitely don't make an "MMO."
I definitely agree with this. Obviously sales projections were wildly optimistic - that's Funcom's problem. However, Ragnar is still committed to monthly updates to slowly expand the range and reach of TSW. There are plenty of very enthusiastic players in this game right now - and Funcom's best bet is to continue investments to TSW to address the concerns of current players and offer incentives to potential players. Naturally this is going to take time.
Martin Bruusgaard's ouster was bad news - I'm sorry to see it happen.
To an extent, it's one of the reasons I asked him about it. Whether it was a subjective dislike of the current games, whether something else had changed, etc, etc, etc.
The games I would not play, I would not play them whether they had a sub or not. For the games that I enjoy, I would rather pay a sub for them and there are several games that I would likely include in annual rotation.
While a game today may not give me UO - I'd be lying to say that games today do not offer just as much in their own way than what UO offered back in the past...many of them offer far more. It may not be my thing, but there's no denying it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%