Originally posted by TruthXHurts It's not just MMO's it's everything. I mean in a world where they advertise 5 hour energy drinks by telling you that "coffee is too hard to make" what chance do we have? If coffee is too hard for you then please just go lay down in the highway.
Yo, Truth, get up and make me a cup of coffee, will ya?
On my third cup already. Didn't have any problems making it.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Just a little Rant but seriously what has become of us, the MMO community, all i see here on this site and many others is whining, complaining, Bickering, Childishness and downright disrespect for people in general.
I am bringning this up because of all the hate there is towards one another and towards the companies that make the games that we play, i see people complaining about how stuff should be better in GW2 yet the game is free to play, what more do you people seriously want?? the Developers owe you guys nothing, why should they justify themselves for you? and the counltess other threads about how this will fail or how long till you think it will fail or whine, whine, whine.
Not that anyone would care but it is not the state of MMO's that is turning me of the Genre but the brat like childish people who are plaguing what was once a great place to enjoy a game and socialize.
I'm sure i will get flamed for this but then again it just proves my point right?
IMO i think alot of us need to pull our heads out of our asses and be greatful for what we get, Especially if it is Free.
Last time I checked GW2 costs $60 bucks to play.
Its not free.
The developers owe us our time and money well spent on a game. Forums are a place to discuss both the good things and the bad of a product we bought. If you dont like it , dont read it.
And yes, it does prove your point when you get flamed, cause clearly you arent "mature" like the rest of the community you bash on.
This is just my opinion (and therefore meaningless), but I think that the reason the "MMO community" seems so crappy now is because of its sheer volume of casual players. I'm not saying the majority of casuals are crappy... but hardcores are a lot more conscientious in games because their reputation matters to them.
There's nothing inherently wrong with being a casual gamer, but in my experience the ones that know they aren't going to see other players as often tend to care less about how they're perceived.
This is just my opinion (and therefore meaningless), but I think that the reason the "MMO community" seems so crappy now is because of its sheer volume of casual players. I'm not saying the majority of casuals are crappy... but hardcores are a lot more conscientious in games because their reputation matters to them.
There's nothing inherently wrong with being a casual gamer, but in my experience the ones that know they aren't going to see other players as often tend to care less about how they're perceived.
Free? Last I checked GW2 cost around $59.99 to play.
Oh yes, and there's this cash shop which while not mandatory, seems to contain items that would be strongly desireable by the average player, such as extra bag space, an even has kick arse armor/weapons one might want to get for around $200.00 for the full set.
Just a small correction. The cash shop doesn't sell armors, or weapons. It sells only a few armor SKINS (remodelled skins from GW1 armors) and TOWN CLOTHING.
You misunderstood that $200.00 for the full set. We're talking about armors and weapons that are ingame, obtainable by ingame means, either with gold, as a drop, or obtained through the mystic forge...
If someone wanted to skip the ingame routes and rightout buy the armor, he'd have to spent a big sum of real money to buy gems, which he would have to exchange for ingame gold.
IDK, it's a good incentive to make players want to actually play the game instead of just buying prestige, or slightly better stats with real money. I thought people didn't like ptw, so isn't this a good thing?
To return to the main topic, the whining doesn't bother me as much as the level of aggression, and all the wishes for "insert name of random new game" to fail. I don't want to overgeneralize, but sometimes it feels like watching a pack of beasts that are constantly tracking their pray, just waiting for the first drop of blood, so they can lunge in. It's a bit unsettling, because it moved from somewhat objective criticism and passion about gaming to a generic "burn it down" stance. That's my impression, at least.
In short, criticism is good, passion is good, but the current attitude doesn't have a particularly positive effect on anyone.
I agree on the reputation thing, but that is also a fault of how the games work nowadays.
If you can just solo your way to the top, why care about what others think about you?
In oldschool MMOs you needed a good reputation, because without grouping you couldn't level effectively. Also, communities were smaller and through the slower progression you kept meeting the same people over and over (nowadays one playsession can put someone far ahead and into an other level range)
Let me clarify. There is nothing wrong with casual players, my guild hosts a few. There is nothing wrong with the younger audience we were all there. Its the ones that demands MMO's be dumbed down so much that content is a joke to get through. Things have become so easy you could probably play the game one handed and do just fine.
Games don't require any sort of thought process anymore.
I agree with you to an extent, but you forgot the part about us Self entitled casuals far and away out numbering the non causal gamers. Oh and our Self entitled casual dollars spend just the same as the non causal dollars...but there is just more of our (self entitled casual gamer) dollars then theirs ( non causal gamers). Game companys are a buisness and as businesses go, it hardly makes sense to go after the smaller slice of the pie.
The only problem is, every industry has to be approached differently. If you were the lead of McDonalds you know your audience are people who are constantly on the move and need food fast, so you aren't going to create a 5star resturaunt environment where they have to sit down of there meal and wait 10-15 minutes for it to be cooked. As a fast food resturaunt you would go out of business. The opposite is true for people who go to those 5 star resturaunts. Create a menu similar to McD's as a 5star and you are going to go out of business/shutdown pretty quick.
The gaming industry translates about the same as those two subcategories in the food industry.
Single Player games are the equivalent of fast food resturaunts. You buy them consume them and move on. Where as a MMORPG would be the 5star, where you sit down, take your time, mingle with friends etc. Kind of a bad analogy I guess since Fast food resturaunts don't exactly promote quality and that isn't true for single player games obviously, but you can see the direction I was trying to take this. The environments are different,e ven though similar in the archtype. To many developers/publishers are not making this distinction between the two.
Right now MMO's are being developed too similar to single player RPGs to hold the interest of people for more then a few months. When MMO's are built to sustain a community again/socialization then we might see the whining go back to how it was 10 years ago...for a short time at least.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'd say it is more of a society thing then a mmo community thing. I myself am a very shades of grey type person, but with a lot people now everything (not just gaming) is completely black or white.
The problem with gamers is they believe they are entitled. Some casual people think they are entitled to get something they haven't worked for. The very vocal hardcore group here think are entitle to exclusive items/content just because they play for multiple hours a day.
UO IMHO had the best formula. It was not easy, but didn't have such a grind until later skill levels. There was no artificial barrier that segregated hardcore and casual player creating first class and second class players.
You are spot on and that's why it's important to talk about communities now. A lot of top notch titles have come out that have not been very conducive to a good community because they didn't need to have one. I'm not sure what the next round of MMOs will be like but I'm willing to bet they are more open with a mind towards social interaction. I personally think this is a great thing for MMOs.
You are spot on and that's why it's important to talk about communities now. A lot of top notch titles have come out that have not been very conducive to a good community because they didn't need to have one. I'm not sure what the next round of MMOs will be like but I'm willing to bet they are more open with a mind towards social interaction. I personally think this is a great thing for MMOs.
So long as its social interaction through the game and not social interaction through an outside source like facebook or twitter, like some companies are doing.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Just a little Rant but seriously what has become of us, the MMO community, all i see here on this site and many others is whining, complaining, Bickering, Childishness and downright disrespect for people in general.
I am bringning this up because of all the hate there is towards one another and towards the companies that make the games that we play, i see people complaining about how stuff should be better in GW2 yet the game is free to play, what more do you people seriously want?? the Developers owe you guys nothing, why should they justify themselves for you? and the counltess other threads about how this will fail or how long till you think it will fail or whine, whine, whine.
Not that anyone would care but it is not the state of MMO's that is turning me of the Genre but the brat like childish people who are plaguing what was once a great place to enjoy a game and socialize.
I'm sure i will get flamed for this but then again it just proves my point right?
IMO i think alot of us need to pull our heads out of our asses and be greatful for what we get, Especially if it is Free.
I have to agree with OP (although you made a mistake saying something bad about GW2 *points at the millions of flame posts about to get posted, and have been already posted lol*). The majority of the MMO community, whether they admit it or not, came from World of Warcraft, after MMOs went mainstream. They never had to ask for help with something, or band together to go kill some ganksquad or griefer. Most of them probably don't even know what a griefer is, it's not a type of gryphon XD. Back on topic, The majority of today's players would absolutely hate the classic MMOs. They'd complain that everything takes too long to do, and why the heck can't I fly anywhere! What they don't understand is that's at the core of every MMO made (well almost). MMOs aren't about bragging rights. They're not even about the endgame. They're about the journey of your character. Today's MMOs are catered to RTS and FPS players, where everything is done in under 30 minutes or less. There is no more leveling for a year, and still only be halfway done with the game, like the really old 2D MMOs. Today's MMOs are all about endgame, and that's what's wrong with them. Making an MMO based on the end, when an MMO should never ever ever ever have an ending, is what makes alot of them bad. You beat the mega-bad baddy and the game is over, and there's no point to continue.
Edit: And in today's MMO, that's all done in a matter of weeks. not even months, let alone years.
Well most MMO players are growing up and getting too involved with RL cause they have families now or busy with school. Not just the MMO community but the whole online community. Since it's become more accessible to the world it's beginning to fill up with stupid self entitled kids. It's really sad... but it's true.
I have to agree with OP (although you made a mistake saying something bad about GW2 *points at the millions of flame posts about to get posted, and have been already posted lol*). The majority of the MMO community, whether they admit it or not, came from World of Warcraft, after MMOs went mainstream. They never had to ask for help with something, or band together to go kill some ganksquad or griefer. Most of them probably don't even know what a griefer is, it's not a type of gryphon XD. Back on topic, The majority of today's players would absolutely hate the classic MMOs. They'd complain that everything takes too long to do, and why the heck can't I fly anywhere! What they don't understand is that's at the core of every MMO made (well almost). MMOs aren't about bragging rights. They're not even about the endgame. They're about the journey of your character. Today's MMOs are catered to RTS and FPS players, where everything is done in under 30 minutes or less. There is no more leveling for a year, and still only be halfway done with the game, like the really old 2D MMOs. Today's MMOs are all about endgame, and that's what's wrong with them. Making an MMO based on the end, when an MMO should never ever ever ever have an ending, is what makes alot of them bad. You beat the mega-bad baddy and the game is over, and there's no point to continue.
Edit: And in today's MMO, that's all done in a matter of weeks. not even months, let alone years.
I agree with this post.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I started to write something... i guess my opinion in the matter. But i stopped myself. I often do. I often find myself in the middle of a write-up, then i suddenly stop and think "Why am i doing this? Even if a write a 100% bulletproof sollution to world hunger, i'll get either shot down or ignored. These people don't want sollutions, mind-expanding discussions, friends or a better world. I don't know what they want... do they even don't know what they want? Do i know what i want? Why am i even here?".
I'm here because i LOVE games. Not because i hate them.
You are spot on and that's why it's important to talk about communities now. A lot of top notch titles have come out that have not been very conducive to a good community because they didn't need to have one. I'm not sure what the next round of MMOs will be like but I'm willing to bet they are more open with a mind towards social interaction. I personally think this is a great thing for MMOs.
So long as its social interaction through the game and not social interaction through an outside source like facebook or twitter, like some companies are doing.
I don't mind 3rd party involvment as long as it's tapping into the main game and not making a seperate one from it. This would seperate the community and would be bad. That said if I know I won't be able to log in one evening but have a few minutes at lunch it would be nice to tap into guild chat and say hello.
+1 it is so obvious when someone has came from a background like wow. A couple of obvious indicators are complaining about cashshops in games like gw2, or complaining that other player can get access to gear really quickly. They don't get it, they don't get it's ok to play with people with better gear, or that it's rewarding that things are not instantly accessible and that long term goals are satisfying.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by charlizd Just a little Rant but seriously what has become of us, the MMO community, all i see here on this site and many others is whining, complaining, Bickering, Childishness and downright disrespect for people in general.I am bringning this up because of all the hate there is towards one another and towards the companies that make the games that we play, i see people complaining about how stuff should be better in GW2 yet the game is free to play, what more do you people seriously want?? the Developers owe you guys nothing, why should they justify themselves for you? and the counltess other threads about how this will fail or how long till you think it will fail or whine, whine, whine.Not that anyone would care but it is not the state of MMO's that is turning me of the Genre but the brat like childish people who are plaguing what was once a great place to enjoy a game and socialize.I'm sure i will get flamed for this but then again it just proves my point right?IMO i think alot of us need to pull our heads out of our asses and be greatful for what we get, Especially if it is Free.
So this is really another "i like GW2 so everyone else should" right? Your title hints at a genuwine concern for the mmo community but it's really a stealth thread about GW2.
Again ill ask the question that has been asked a few times in your thread: which part of GW2 is free?
pretty much this. Because the OP's logic wouldn't apply to most mmo out there that launched bad and unplayable. Look at Vanguard, dark and light, DDO. The op acts as if the community suppose to kiss ass to bad products. Name another industry that functions like that. And you wonder why the genre is so fucked up.
I started to write something... i guess my opinion in the matter. But i stopped myself. I often do. I often find myself in the middle of a write-up, then i suddenly stop and think "Why am i doing this? Even if a write a 100% bulletproof sollution to world hunger, i'll get either shot down or ignored. These people don't want sollutions, mind-expanding discussions, friends or a better world. I don't know what they want... do they even don't know what they want? Do i know what i want? Why am i even here?".
I'm here because i LOVE games. Not because i hate them.
I have noticed the same and have done the same things many times. People are not interested in finding solution. They want to hop up on their soap box. Yell about how great their opinions are to find like minded people and scream at the that have the opposite opinion.
I started to write something... i guess my opinion in the matter. But i stopped myself. I often do. I often find myself in the middle of a write-up, then i suddenly stop and think "Why am i doing this? Even if a write a 100% bulletproof sollution to world hunger, i'll get either shot down or ignored. These people don't want sollutions, mind-expanding discussions, friends or a better world. I don't know what they want... do they even don't know what they want? Do i know what i want? Why am i even here?".
I'm here because i LOVE games. Not because i hate them.
I have noticed the same and have done the same things many times. People are not interested in finding solution. They want to hop up on their soap box. Yell about how great their opinions are to find like minded people and scream at the that have the opposite opinion.
Are you Venger Satanis?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Free? Last I checked GW2 cost around $59.99 to play.
Oh yes, and there's this cash shop which while not mandatory, seems to contain items that would be strongly desireable by the average player, such as extra bag space, an even has kick arse armor/weapons one might want to get for around $200.00 for the full set.
Don't forget they moved stuff you get by default in P2P products such as inventory space, bank space, etc into the cash shop. Not to mention the ability to turn RL money directly into in-game currency.
P2P is still far superior for quality and fairness,
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I started to write something... i guess my opinion in the matter. But i stopped myself. I often do. I often find myself in the middle of a write-up, then i suddenly stop and think "Why am i doing this? Even if a write a 100% bulletproof sollution to world hunger, i'll get either shot down or ignored. These people don't want sollutions, mind-expanding discussions, friends or a better world. I don't know what they want... do they even don't know what they want? Do i know what i want? Why am i even here?".
I'm here because i LOVE games. Not because i hate them.
I have noticed the same and have done the same things many times. People are not interested in finding solution. They want to hop up on their soap box. Yell about how great their opinions are to find like minded people and scream at the that have the opposite opinion.
Finding solutions? Forums are not about finding solutions. 99% of the posters here are NOT developers and they have no say in actual game development. There is no solution to be found. The only control most of us have .. is to decide what game to buy/play .. and you really don't need a forum to do that.
Comments
On my third cup already. Didn't have any problems making it.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Last time I checked GW2 costs $60 bucks to play.
Its not free.
The developers owe us our time and money well spent on a game. Forums are a place to discuss both the good things and the bad of a product we bought. If you dont like it , dont read it.
And yes, it does prove your point when you get flamed, cause clearly you arent "mature" like the rest of the community you bash on.
This is just my opinion (and therefore meaningless), but I think that the reason the "MMO community" seems so crappy now is because of its sheer volume of casual players. I'm not saying the majority of casuals are crappy... but hardcores are a lot more conscientious in games because their reputation matters to them.
There's nothing inherently wrong with being a casual gamer, but in my experience the ones that know they aren't going to see other players as often tend to care less about how they're perceived.
ding ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Just a small correction. The cash shop doesn't sell armors, or weapons. It sells only a few armor SKINS (remodelled skins from GW1 armors) and TOWN CLOTHING.
You misunderstood that $200.00 for the full set. We're talking about armors and weapons that are ingame, obtainable by ingame means, either with gold, as a drop, or obtained through the mystic forge...
If someone wanted to skip the ingame routes and rightout buy the armor, he'd have to spent a big sum of real money to buy gems, which he would have to exchange for ingame gold.
IDK, it's a good incentive to make players want to actually play the game instead of just buying prestige, or slightly better stats with real money. I thought people didn't like ptw, so isn't this a good thing?
To return to the main topic, the whining doesn't bother me as much as the level of aggression, and all the wishes for "insert name of random new game" to fail. I don't want to overgeneralize, but sometimes it feels like watching a pack of beasts that are constantly tracking their pray, just waiting for the first drop of blood, so they can lunge in. It's a bit unsettling, because it moved from somewhat objective criticism and passion about gaming to a generic "burn it down" stance. That's my impression, at least.
In short, criticism is good, passion is good, but the current attitude doesn't have a particularly positive effect on anyone.
EDIT: typo amuch
I agree on the reputation thing, but that is also a fault of how the games work nowadays.
If you can just solo your way to the top, why care about what others think about you?
In oldschool MMOs you needed a good reputation, because without grouping you couldn't level effectively. Also, communities were smaller and through the slower progression you kept meeting the same people over and over (nowadays one playsession can put someone far ahead and into an other level range)
The only problem is, every industry has to be approached differently. If you were the lead of McDonalds you know your audience are people who are constantly on the move and need food fast, so you aren't going to create a 5star resturaunt environment where they have to sit down of there meal and wait 10-15 minutes for it to be cooked. As a fast food resturaunt you would go out of business. The opposite is true for people who go to those 5 star resturaunts. Create a menu similar to McD's as a 5star and you are going to go out of business/shutdown pretty quick.
The gaming industry translates about the same as those two subcategories in the food industry.
Single Player games are the equivalent of fast food resturaunts. You buy them consume them and move on. Where as a MMORPG would be the 5star, where you sit down, take your time, mingle with friends etc. Kind of a bad analogy I guess since Fast food resturaunts don't exactly promote quality and that isn't true for single player games obviously, but you can see the direction I was trying to take this. The environments are different,e ven though similar in the archtype. To many developers/publishers are not making this distinction between the two.
Right now MMO's are being developed too similar to single player RPGs to hold the interest of people for more then a few months. When MMO's are built to sustain a community again/socialization then we might see the whining go back to how it was 10 years ago...for a short time at least.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'd say it is more of a society thing then a mmo community thing. I myself am a very shades of grey type person, but with a lot people now everything (not just gaming) is completely black or white.
The problem with gamers is they believe they are entitled. Some casual people think they are entitled to get something they haven't worked for. The very vocal hardcore group here think are entitle to exclusive items/content just because they play for multiple hours a day.
UO IMHO had the best formula. It was not easy, but didn't have such a grind until later skill levels. There was no artificial barrier that segregated hardcore and casual player creating first class and second class players.
You are spot on and that's why it's important to talk about communities now. A lot of top notch titles have come out that have not been very conducive to a good community because they didn't need to have one. I'm not sure what the next round of MMOs will be like but I'm willing to bet they are more open with a mind towards social interaction. I personally think this is a great thing for MMOs.
So long as its social interaction through the game and not social interaction through an outside source like facebook or twitter, like some companies are doing.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Amen brother, amen!
I have to agree with OP (although you made a mistake saying something bad about GW2 *points at the millions of flame posts about to get posted, and have been already posted lol*). The majority of the MMO community, whether they admit it or not, came from World of Warcraft, after MMOs went mainstream. They never had to ask for help with something, or band together to go kill some ganksquad or griefer. Most of them probably don't even know what a griefer is, it's not a type of gryphon XD. Back on topic, The majority of today's players would absolutely hate the classic MMOs. They'd complain that everything takes too long to do, and why the heck can't I fly anywhere! What they don't understand is that's at the core of every MMO made (well almost). MMOs aren't about bragging rights. They're not even about the endgame. They're about the journey of your character. Today's MMOs are catered to RTS and FPS players, where everything is done in under 30 minutes or less. There is no more leveling for a year, and still only be halfway done with the game, like the really old 2D MMOs. Today's MMOs are all about endgame, and that's what's wrong with them. Making an MMO based on the end, when an MMO should never ever ever ever have an ending, is what makes alot of them bad. You beat the mega-bad baddy and the game is over, and there's no point to continue.
Edit: And in today's MMO, that's all done in a matter of weeks. not even months, let alone years.
GEMS which allows you to buy alot more.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree with this post.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I started to write something... i guess my opinion in the matter. But i stopped myself. I often do. I often find myself in the middle of a write-up, then i suddenly stop and think "Why am i doing this? Even if a write a 100% bulletproof sollution to world hunger, i'll get either shot down or ignored. These people don't want sollutions, mind-expanding discussions, friends or a better world. I don't know what they want... do they even don't know what they want? Do i know what i want? Why am i even here?".
I'm here because i LOVE games. Not because i hate them.
I don't mind 3rd party involvment as long as it's tapping into the main game and not making a seperate one from it. This would seperate the community and would be bad. That said if I know I won't be able to log in one evening but have a few minutes at lunch it would be nice to tap into guild chat and say hello.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So this is really another "i like GW2 so everyone else should" right? Your title hints at a genuwine concern for the mmo community but it's really a stealth thread about GW2.
Again ill ask the question that has been asked a few times in your thread: which part of GW2 is free?
pretty much this. Because the OP's logic wouldn't apply to most mmo out there that launched bad and unplayable. Look at Vanguard, dark and light, DDO. The op acts as if the community suppose to kiss ass to bad products. Name another industry that functions like that. And you wonder why the genre is so fucked up.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I have noticed the same and have done the same things many times. People are not interested in finding solution. They want to hop up on their soap box. Yell about how great their opinions are to find like minded people and scream at the that have the opposite opinion.
Are you Venger Satanis?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Don't forget they moved stuff you get by default in P2P products such as inventory space, bank space, etc into the cash shop. Not to mention the ability to turn RL money directly into in-game currency.
P2P is still far superior for quality and fairness,
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Finding solutions? Forums are not about finding solutions. 99% of the posters here are NOT developers and they have no say in actual game development. There is no solution to be found. The only control most of us have .. is to decide what game to buy/play .. and you really don't need a forum to do that.
Of course it is about airing one's opinion.