Originally posted by Cyrael As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.
You find DPS boring, others find exclusively playing a support class utterly boring. Sorry, but MY idea of playing a Heroic Fantasy MMO is NOT standing at the back in a fancy frock, trying not to get hit, and healing the guy over there who is having all the fun of fighting the mob, toe to toe. If you want to play a dedicated support class you'd better change games, and leave the game to people who like it.
As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.
my ele plays almost pure support in dungeons.. the option is there and very viable just varies on class
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Damage output and enemy health pools are way too big for a support-less full dps group to possibly expect to survive (at least on dungeons), you NEED support be it in the condition of buffs, conditions, combo fields on top of the basic healing and kiting if you wish to make a dungeon run spending less in repairs than you gained in loot.
I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.
To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.
What weapons are you using? I'll break down my guardian support. I'll Highlight the support focused skills for you in each.
Weapons Staff/Hammer and Scepter/Shield or Scepter/Focus and Mace.
Skill 2 - Ord that does damage to enemies it passes through, can be detonated to heal allies.
Skill 3 - Places a symbol on the ground that damages enemies, gives allies swiftness and acts as a combo field.
Skill 4 - AoE heal for allies and self, AoE 3 stacks of might for allies for each pulse for a total of 12 or 15 stacks of might.
Skill 5 - Creates a line enemies can't cross. This is awsome in dungeons with corridors. We can hit you but you can't hit us.
Hammer
Skill 1 - 3rd attack in the chain creates a symbol of protection
Skill 2 - AoE damage
Skill 3 - Sends out wave that immobilizes all enemies in a line it hits.
Skill 4 - Kock Back
Skill 5 - Creates a ring that foes can not cross.
Scepter
Skill 1 - Long range damage
Skill 2 - Targeted AoE damage
Skill 3 - Immobolizes and makes enemy vulnerable
Focus
Skill 4 - Passes a ray over enemies and allies in front of you. Damages and Blinds enemies, gives regen and removes one condition from allies.
Skill 5 - Shield that blocks 3 attacks.
Shield
Skill 4 - Give up to 5 allies protection and damage enemies.
Skill 5 - Creates a dome that pushes back enemies and protects those inside from projectiles.
Mace
Skill 1 - 3rd attack in chain heals nearby allies.
Skill 2 - Smash a symbol into the ground that damages enemies and regens allies
Skill 3 - Surround yourself and nearby allies with a protective shield. Damagae enemies that strike protected allies. Give allies protection if not struck.
Now that is simply weapons, I haven't even gone into my support traits and utility skills. I can trait all symbols to heal allies, I can trait my virtue passives to be given to allies, I can use shouts and concecration and medetation skills to heal, buff, remove conditions.
I can support just fine without waiting on cooldowns. Though I'm not simply sitting in the back...
Now with the first 5 slots covered it seems there is a ton of support with just 2 weapon sets. We haven't gotten into utility skills, virtues or traits yet. Would you like me to break down the support possibilities there?
The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.
Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.
Discuss...
completely disagree. even at lvl 35 dungeons you very much need support roles.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
No, they exist on here. Your mashing together cc and support though. You typicalyl don't see a 'support' role in this game providing much in terms of CC and vice versa. They can share one fo those aspects, but they often are limited with a bit longer cd.
nah i support role on my engineer all the time with explosives. I do think it's odd that they put the trait to make explosives heal players in with the alchemy tree instead of the explosives tree. would go along way to improving the skills if they switch that one thing out.
There's pleanty of healing gear all over the place even dropping off mobs.
Healing doesn't all you to do what people do in other games which is just stand there and look at bars all day tho. That's why they made healing either have to be aimed in a direction or be in an AOE because players would just abuse the gameplay by standing there like they were on their phone.
It's a good system. However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.
The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.
Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.
Discuss...
Agree...and becomes boring and even 10x more simplified than lets say wow...that has many roles, not boring, has more than 5 attack skills ...etc...
The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.
Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.
Discuss...
Agree...and becomes boring and even 10x more simplified than lets say wow...that has many roles, not boring, has more than 5 attack skills ...etc...
This is only an "opinion" of someone that lacks understanding in the system
GW2 can be as simple as a WoW rotation spam if you don't understand it, but a great deal more complex if you learn it.
I definitely think they left the option in play to be a support role. I can easily rig up a support role engineer. Really depends on your traits , gear and general understanding of the Combo system. The Dual Engineer support .. amazing, just amazing!
The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.
Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.
Discuss...
You couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, certain classes EXCEL at support, and are a huge benefit to have in groups. Namely:
Guardians, Necromancers, Elementalists, and Mesmers.
Every class can support, though. However, what you need to realize is that support in this game isn't as simple as 'i'm a support role, take me and win'. There are different types of support, just as there are different types of damage, and different ways to defend / build for survivability. Skill synergy is what rules this game, as opposed to blanket archetypes.
For example, when I run dungeons & tend to go w/ a conditions / well based necro build. I specialize in AoE conditions management & healing, as well as doing some decent AoE dmg. Not only do a bring a ton of AoE healing, but I also bring useful support abilities like vulnerability stacking (increases how much dmg things take), converting boons on enemies into conditions, and converting conditions on allies into boons. I also bring useful CC in the form of fears, cripple, and chills. The support isn't so powerful that my allies can just faceroll their keyboards and win, but it makes fights a lot more manageable, and gives people quite a long time to recover from bad situations or mistakes.
Another example would be anti-projectile support. Some classes (like mesmers) can toss out tons of skills & aoe that reflects projectiles back at enemies. Mesmers in particular are so good at this, that they can keep it going for almost the entire fight. However, it does absolutely nothing against melee, or explosive specced enemies. This is where synergy is really important, because every spec has a weakness, and where one person's weakness is, another person can makeup that difference. I.E. You may have a mesmer who's great at dealing w/ enemy ranged attackers, but terrible against melee. In which case, you may bring with you a thief or a guardian to occupy the melee enemies, or keep them blinded.
- Granted, most skills have some type of damage component (even if small). However there is quite a large difference between a support skill's damage, and a damage-heavy skill's damage. My warrior may throw down a 100blades for 4-8k dmg, however my necro may toss out an AoE well that only does 2-4k damage, but also heals everyone in the group for 1-2k, and makes all the enemies take 10% more damage for the next 10 seconds. The warrior's going to be the one burning down the target, while the necro is assisting across the board, giving people more chances to stay alive, as well as negating a lot of what the enemies are doing.
However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.
I see that soooo often. There's a certain type of player in MMOs who, in a group, just wants "to get their gun off and bask in the glory". It's usually THEM whining about the lack of a support class, because it means they have to start thinking.
However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.
I see that soooo often. There's a certain type of player in MMOs who, in a group, just wants "to get their gun off and bask in the glory". It's usually THEM whining about the lack of a support class, because it means they have to start thinking.
They're also typically the first ones to rage quit in dungeons & sPvP.
GW has always been a game that favors more balanced setups (or group compositions). GW2 is no different in that regard. If you're going to go super glass cannon DPS (as most people tend to do), then it's extremely important that you both have someone up front taking most of the hits, but are also a good enough player to avoid getting shot at the whole fight.
I think that some players (especially those who like to complain, it seems) are pretty close-minded when it comes to defining roles. If a character does damage, he's DPS to them. In that sense, all characters in GW2 are DPS characters. That doesn't mean there's no build diversity or that you can't focus on support skills, dealing damage at the same time.
Besides, heals are far from the only support skill type. Buffs and debuffs are very important, too, and most professions have a lot of both.
Support roles in this game exist, but no role exists without damage. Eveyone in your group will be targetting the boss at some point. I play an elixer support engineer, and it works pretty well. I'm able to heal pretty consistently, but if I spend a moment just sitting there waiting for cooldowns, I'm doing something wrong. But my support does help all the other players.... soo..... not sure where I'm going with this.
Eliminated dedicated support classes? From their game, yes.
Eliminated the ability for people to play support roles? No. Plenty of support options are present for those that want to help out in support roles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Seems to depend on class, but what bugs me is that for most classes, you have to gimp yourself and spec everything into support, to make it worth trying to play that way. It's not like you can just swap weapons to swap roles, the way I'd expected. So of course, not many want to do that.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Originally posted by Vhaln Seems to depend on class, but what bugs me is that for most classes, you have to gimp yourself and spec everything into support, to make it worth trying to play that way. It's not like you can just swap weapons to swap roles, the way I'd expected. So of course, not many want to do that.
game does need a trait saving system.. something similar to Rifts role system where you can switch from trait setups outside combat without having to go and respec at a trainer every time.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
game does need a trait saving system.. something similar to Rifts role system where you can switch from trait setups outside combat without having to go and respec at a trainer every time.
I'm pretty sure they've said they are working on this (Nadia prolly already has the quote bookmarked )
I remember reading that it wasn't working to the level they wanted it but GW1 has a Build Manager I fully expect to see one added to GW2 as well.
Eliminated as exclusive role maybe. But building in some support is very viable imo. Especially if you look at teams (for dungeons or PVP) it can be very useful to look at what your team as a whole brings as support. Complementing skills can be very efficient then.
But I guess the mindset of players also matter. Players in my guild don't like dying, so if we complete a dungeon by respawning all the time, we failed it. The deathpenalty does not matter in this. So we always find a way to prevent this from happening again.
I can imagine that on an individual level many players think that only dps matters in GW2. Especially if you only take part in zergs in WvWvW and DE's. This is also one thing I don't like in GW2. That you can earn a gold participation medal for failing an event. And not failing even though you tried, but because you simply ignored the objective and just spammed your AOE to tag as many mobs as possible.
Comments
You find DPS boring, others find exclusively playing a support class utterly boring. Sorry, but MY idea of playing a Heroic Fantasy MMO is NOT standing at the back in a fancy frock, trying not to get hit, and healing the guy over there who is having all the fun of fighting the mob, toe to toe. If you want to play a dedicated support class you'd better change games, and leave the game to people who like it.
my ele plays almost pure support in dungeons.. the option is there and very viable just varies on classI angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
in any other game, only on raids would you not attack in some form. This is no different.
i think the biggest culture shock isnt that former support players have less to do..its that former dps players have alot more to do.
if you think about the class makeup in any game it turns out like 70% dps 30% tanks and healers usually, so really they just removed that 30% crutch
i think it needs some improvements, but its certainly a good start.
I remember back in eq where a warrior had what? taunt/kick and maybe bash if they were big.
give it a chance to grow.
What weapons are you using? I'll break down my guardian support. I'll Highlight the support focused skills for you in each.
Weapons Staff/Hammer and Scepter/Shield or Scepter/Focus and Mace.
Staff
Skill 1 - Mid ranged Light AoE Damage, nothing spectacular.
Skill 2 - Ord that does damage to enemies it passes through, can be detonated to heal allies.
Skill 3 - Places a symbol on the ground that damages enemies, gives allies swiftness and acts as a combo field.
Skill 4 - AoE heal for allies and self, AoE 3 stacks of might for allies for each pulse for a total of 12 or 15 stacks of might.
Skill 5 - Creates a line enemies can't cross. This is awsome in dungeons with corridors. We can hit you but you can't hit us.
Hammer
Skill 1 - 3rd attack in the chain creates a symbol of protection
Skill 2 - AoE damage
Skill 3 - Sends out wave that immobilizes all enemies in a line it hits.
Skill 4 - Kock Back
Skill 5 - Creates a ring that foes can not cross.
Scepter
Skill 1 - Long range damage
Skill 2 - Targeted AoE damage
Skill 3 - Immobolizes and makes enemy vulnerable
Focus
Skill 4 - Passes a ray over enemies and allies in front of you. Damages and Blinds enemies, gives regen and removes one condition from allies.
Skill 5 - Shield that blocks 3 attacks.
Shield
Skill 4 - Give up to 5 allies protection and damage enemies.
Skill 5 - Creates a dome that pushes back enemies and protects those inside from projectiles.
Mace
Skill 1 - 3rd attack in chain heals nearby allies.
Skill 2 - Smash a symbol into the ground that damages enemies and regens allies
Skill 3 - Surround yourself and nearby allies with a protective shield. Damagae enemies that strike protected allies. Give allies protection if not struck.
Now that is simply weapons, I haven't even gone into my support traits and utility skills. I can trait all symbols to heal allies, I can trait my virtue passives to be given to allies, I can use shouts and concecration and medetation skills to heal, buff, remove conditions.
I can support just fine without waiting on cooldowns. Though I'm not simply sitting in the back...
Now with the first 5 slots covered it seems there is a ton of support with just 2 weapon sets. We haven't gotten into utility skills, virtues or traits yet. Would you like me to break down the support possibilities there?
completely disagree. even at lvl 35 dungeons you very much need support roles.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
nah i support role on my engineer all the time with explosives. I do think it's odd that they put the trait to make explosives heal players in with the alchemy tree instead of the explosives tree. would go along way to improving the skills if they switch that one thing out.
There's pleanty of healing gear all over the place even dropping off mobs.
Healing doesn't all you to do what people do in other games which is just stand there and look at bars all day tho. That's why they made healing either have to be aimed in a direction or be in an AOE because players would just abuse the gameplay by standing there like they were on their phone.
It's a good system. However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.
Agree...and becomes boring and even 10x more simplified than lets say wow...that has many roles, not boring, has more than 5 attack skills ...etc...
This is only an "opinion" of someone that lacks understanding in the system
GW2 can be as simple as a WoW rotation spam if you don't understand it, but a great deal more complex if you learn it.
You couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, certain classes EXCEL at support, and are a huge benefit to have in groups. Namely:
Guardians, Necromancers, Elementalists, and Mesmers.
Every class can support, though. However, what you need to realize is that support in this game isn't as simple as 'i'm a support role, take me and win'. There are different types of support, just as there are different types of damage, and different ways to defend / build for survivability. Skill synergy is what rules this game, as opposed to blanket archetypes.
For example, when I run dungeons & tend to go w/ a conditions / well based necro build. I specialize in AoE conditions management & healing, as well as doing some decent AoE dmg. Not only do a bring a ton of AoE healing, but I also bring useful support abilities like vulnerability stacking (increases how much dmg things take), converting boons on enemies into conditions, and converting conditions on allies into boons. I also bring useful CC in the form of fears, cripple, and chills. The support isn't so powerful that my allies can just faceroll their keyboards and win, but it makes fights a lot more manageable, and gives people quite a long time to recover from bad situations or mistakes.
Another example would be anti-projectile support. Some classes (like mesmers) can toss out tons of skills & aoe that reflects projectiles back at enemies. Mesmers in particular are so good at this, that they can keep it going for almost the entire fight. However, it does absolutely nothing against melee, or explosive specced enemies. This is where synergy is really important, because every spec has a weakness, and where one person's weakness is, another person can makeup that difference. I.E. You may have a mesmer who's great at dealing w/ enemy ranged attackers, but terrible against melee. In which case, you may bring with you a thief or a guardian to occupy the melee enemies, or keep them blinded.
- Granted, most skills have some type of damage component (even if small). However there is quite a large difference between a support skill's damage, and a damage-heavy skill's damage. My warrior may throw down a 100blades for 4-8k dmg, however my necro may toss out an AoE well that only does 2-4k damage, but also heals everyone in the group for 1-2k, and makes all the enemies take 10% more damage for the next 10 seconds. The warrior's going to be the one burning down the target, while the necro is assisting across the board, giving people more chances to stay alive, as well as negating a lot of what the enemies are doing.
I see that soooo often. There's a certain type of player in MMOs who, in a group, just wants "to get their gun off and bask in the glory". It's usually THEM whining about the lack of a support class, because it means they have to start thinking.
They're also typically the first ones to rage quit in dungeons & sPvP.
GW has always been a game that favors more balanced setups (or group compositions). GW2 is no different in that regard. If you're going to go super glass cannon DPS (as most people tend to do), then it's extremely important that you both have someone up front taking most of the hits, but are also a good enough player to avoid getting shot at the whole fight.
Considering support specs will deal 80 to 90% of the sustained damage of glass cannon specs not speccing for support is crippling yourself.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I think that some players (especially those who like to complain, it seems) are pretty close-minded when it comes to defining roles. If a character does damage, he's DPS to them. In that sense, all characters in GW2 are DPS characters. That doesn't mean there's no build diversity or that you can't focus on support skills, dealing damage at the same time.
Besides, heals are far from the only support skill type. Buffs and debuffs are very important, too, and most professions have a lot of both.
Eliminated dedicated support classes? From their game, yes.
Eliminated the ability for people to play support roles? No. Plenty of support options are present for those that want to help out in support roles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
game does need a trait saving system.. something similar to Rifts role system where you can switch from trait setups outside combat without having to go and respec at a trainer every time.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I'm pretty sure they've said they are working on this (Nadia prolly already has the quote bookmarked
)
I remember reading that it wasn't working to the level they wanted it but GW1 has a Build Manager I fully expect to see one added to GW2 as well.
Premise of this thread is quite wrong, when you run into a support specced Ele in WvW or sPvP you should know it. I have seen and its quite useful.
There are also a number of bunker buidls as well. They just behave differently than many people expect.
Eliminated as exclusive role maybe. But building in some support is very viable imo. Especially if you look at teams (for dungeons or PVP) it can be very useful to look at what your team as a whole brings as support. Complementing skills can be very efficient then.
But I guess the mindset of players also matter. Players in my guild don't like dying, so if we complete a dungeon by respawning all the time, we failed it. The deathpenalty does not matter in this. So we always find a way to prevent this from happening again.
I can imagine that on an individual level many players think that only dps matters in GW2. Especially if you only take part in zergs in WvWvW and DE's. This is also one thing I don't like in GW2. That you can earn a gold participation medal for failing an event. And not failing even though you tried, but because you simply ignored the objective and just spammed your AOE to tag as many mobs as possible.