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Pathfinder Online, why it will fail, and why you shouldn't give them any money...
Dulu
Member UncommonPosts: 58
So, I was checking out Pathfinder Online... They have no game footage on display yet, but they're asking for money. Apparently, investors only want to invest in a company that is going the "traditional route" and making games like "WoW 1.5" (Their words, video attached)
Well, I did some research on the company, and this is what I found... Apparently, they are hiring, but only people who have worked on plopping out the same old trash we've seen for literally the past 5 years. They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW, or is a fresh Grad like myself.
I just found it funny. These people are not interested in making a revolutionary game. They want to make money. They can't get investors, so they want YOU to give them your money.
Job Posting for Game Designer, PVE:
"we're particularly interested in applicants who have worked on an MMO that was actually shipped and operated as a live game.
Knowledge of the Pathfinder intellectual property is a plus but not a requirement. A history as a tabletop hobby gamer is also a plus, not a requirement.
Candidate should be able to show a prior work on scripted multi-part encounter designs
What are my new job responsibilities?
- Design create immersive and interesting missions and quests for characters involved in many different kinds of activities including crafting, transportation, diplomacy, harvesting, territorial defense, exploration and monster hunting
What are my new job requirements?
- Prior experience working with a shipped videogame title
- Ability to clearly communicate needs and processes to programmers and artists
What would set me apart from other candidates?
- Prior experience working on an MMO operating in a live environment in the past 5 years
- Previous work developing components for a large videogame title especially an MMO"
Comments
I think you read way to much in to it. OFc they are looking for people who have some REAL experience seeing as how many so called MMO's that never see the light of day.
That was in my mind a pretty standard job advertisment. And if you have the skills and can back that up you still have a good chance. But the fact is that "game developer" are dime a dossen these days due to every college and university offering some form of courses in game design.
This have been a good conversation
I watched the video and read your post adn checked out their "job postings", and it sounds like to me, that they are just trying to get people who are expirenced in making an MMO.
I think you are misreading them wrong, or are just upset that they won't consider you?
I think you are right about them not having game footage yet though, they should have some sort of video demo so people can see what their vision is before they decide to invest.
Phlacc, read my post again.
I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.
Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.
They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."
They simply don't jive.
Do you understand that the coder isn't what makes the game revolutionary? The designer does that. It doesn't matter if you were a coder on a WoW clone or on ATITD, you aren't the designer. And furthermore having made such a mainstream MMO says nothing about your desires anyways. I know many people who worked on commercial titles who hated it and wanted to make cool games but they weren't lead designers so they didn't have a choice.
I am somewhat suspicious of Pathfinder. Generally you need a working demo or in progress engine like Repopulation has before you start begging for cash.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
Do you understand this is the job posting for the DESIGNER? Not the CODER.
Read the post.
Experience in the past 5 years means you are in touch with how things work today - as opposed to 10 years ago. A lot has changed since then: the technology and how things are run and made. And demanding that they've shipped a finished product is a huge thing since practically anyone can start something but never finish it. They want someone who has experience in carrying the product through from development to launch.
You're a grad student. Likely you have no experience of the sort.
I also think Pathfinder Online is fishy, but your reasons are just... forget it. Just think it through before you get worked up about nothing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
[mod edit] The add asked for a game designer not a lead designer. They need someone who has done this before in a recent game to do all the grunt work for them.They dont want to babysit you. They cant afford to have anyone untested at all, and the last thing they probabally want is a visionary to collide with their current visionary. You seem like trouble to me already. I wouldnt hire you if this is what happens everytime something doesnt go your way.
suck it up, get some experience, probabally as a tester and make some of your own designs and submit them to companies.
if your designs are good, someone will catch on to them.
[mod edit]
How old are you? jokes a side have you ever been in a job interview and they did not want relevant past experience?
Q: Do you have any relevant programming experience?
A: Yes back in 1972 i used to program COBOL apps
Q: What have you done since?
A: I've been a professional dog walker
Do you think this will get you hired? Any company which is hiring needs people with relevant experience, the fact that they've worked on games you might not like does not matter, heck even if they took the lead designer of WoW and made him make a new game it does not mean it will be WoW 2.0.
People with the right skills, and good ideas can make any thing they want it might be WoW 2.0, it might not be, but the fact that they are hiring people with relevant experience has nothing to do with it.
As others have said, you are reading way too much into it. They didn't say they wanted only people with experience the past five years but that it would be a plus to have had experience working on MMOs in the past five years as well as the other credentials.
Look, we get it - you feel they don't want you and you're upset. However you've got a very apparent sour grapes thing going on here. Personally, I put a lot more credence in the past history, past successes and present development blogs/articles of the team than in the very odd takeaway you present here from one misinterpreted job description.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Let me break this down one final time.
This company is saying "We want to revolutionize the MMO market. We want to make something unlike anything ever released".
Then, when you dig deeper, they are explicitly stating they will ONLY hire designers who have experience making the very thing they are trying to revolutionize.
Do you people want the same DESIGNER who worked on Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc designing new games?
Does no one on this site have a sense of irony, or a hypocrisy detector?
[mod edit]My gripe has nothing to do with not being hired as the PVE designer for some trash game, which is clearly a scam to make money.
My gripe is that they're advertising one thing, and then doing the complete opposite. They're lying to people to get money.
Yeah asking for a guy to designe quests that actually worked on another game before is a horrible decision...
Specific quests and PVE encounters are not whats wrong with games these days, in fact that's the only thing that is keeping some games today alive.
WoW's problems have nothing to do with the quality of specific quests, and PVE encounters those for the most part have actually significantly improved over the years, while the whole experience of the game has diminished atleast in the eyes of "hardcore" fans.
I don't think any one would complain if you could still get some of the really cool quests and encounters we got with the expansions if the game was still as hard and demanding as it was during vanilla, and TBC.
P.S. i would suggest to you to go outside, get some real job exprience, and then complain.
I'm not seeing anything that is "clearly" them saying want someone who can create another WoW clone.
The experience working in the past 5 years, to me, is them saying "is up-to-date and knowledgable about modern technologies and methods applied to developing and running a MMORPG in the last 5 years." Things change and progress and they would, logically, want someone whos experience and knowledge of the field isn't out-dated and irrelevant.
If I saw something like "experience and working knowledge of popular, casual friendly MMOs of the last 5 years, specifically World of Warcraft, Warhammer, Lord of The Rings, etc" then I could agree that, yes, that does seem a bit fishy.
But I don't see that.
They're placing a desired window on when the applicant actually worked in the field.
For example. I used to be a web designer. I got out of the field when HTML 3.0 was just gaining presence. I haven't looked at it since. If I applied for a job that required knowledge and hands-on experience of HTML 5.0 and other current technologies, I'd be up the creek. I clearly wouldn't fit their requirements. Anything I could contribute would be out-dated the moment I wrote the first line of HTML or CSS.
I think it's the same thing here.
I agree with others in this thread, OP. I think you're reading far too much into it, and barking up the wrong tree.
That is because you think designer actually design game.
The actual job for a designer is to make sure the game works.
They dont' need ideas. Internet is full of ideas. Look around this forum. It is full of people who think they should be game designer.
Didn't watch the video, maybe it says it there.
But nowhere in your post showing the job description do they state, "They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW..." As you imply.
Where did you get that from?
So far everything else seems pretty reasonable.
I see nothing wrong with that job application. They're looking for expierenced people. People who have expierence have worked on games before, specifically MMOs. And they don't want someone who just programs in their basement claiming they've worked on a MMO. They want known and shipped titles as references.
A person who created WoW can go on to make a different MMO with the expierence they've gained. It doesn't take some fresh 22 year old out of college who wants everyone to listen to their ideas to do it. Fact is, in the game industry, game designer is not a entry level position. You work either in QA, Sound, Art, or Programming, get expierence and hope someone likes you so you can become a designer on the next title.
They are not. They are simply looking for a person who has up to date experience in the field - and that means in the last 5 years. Past that is no longer up to date.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
To the OP. Read this guys reply. You dont' just walk in to a game studio and say I should be the game designer. You get experience in the field doing entry level position first.
The "technology" have also changed substantialy in the past 5 years. Besides the actually game design, you need to have knowledge on the tools that creat game.
They just said a game that has shipped. . that could be anything. I messed around with Unity and developed a few mobile and web apps that were multiplayer etc. I have a friends who basically has designed an entire MMO etc. and messed around. The more we play around the more we realize how much we still need to learn. They want someone who has worked on a "shipped" game because they will have experienced the entire process. Mortal Online "shipped" etc. It doesn't mean WoW over again - it means actual experience with the entire process of making an MMO.
Also there are many people out there who would happily play a WoW 1.5. . many people enjoy WoW (I am not one of them).
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Umm sure.
#1 the game will more likely actually make it to launch due to real world experience, granted theres something to be said for fresh out of school enthusiasm but alot of times exprience trumps out.
#2 just because they worked on a previous game title means they can only make the same thing, really? What school did you go to where once one has worked on something their mindset and vision is locked into just that one view? people change, and Learn and sometimes they learn from experience how to get things done and what things just won't work no matter how good they look in your imagination.
#3 they probably already have more then a few fresh out of school ideology filled inexperienced devs they need someone with experience to anchor them and make sure the game actually makes it to launch. Saying they should only hire new fresh out of school or older devs with no current experience seems a bit nieve to me
They are asking for designers with experience. It doesn't specifically say "wow". And even if they get wow designers (and Im' sure they would love to have them) that doesn't mean those designers are going to steer their project toward "a wow clone". I listened to the video and there is absolutely nothing that says what you are claiming. They keep saying sandbox, making games that players want to play, that the players need to let them know what they want, etc.
The entire video was gone through and absolutley nothing you are claiming is there.
They want experienced people. GOOD. Then they are going to be a better comapny for it and actually attract investors if they show they have experienced people.
So please, point us to where they say they are only hiring so they can create another game of the same type.
Just because someone designed for warhammer, AoC or any other game does't mean they can't design another type of game.
For some reason you think that the only thing a designer can do is "one type of game".
edit: as far as the 100k investment, I can only say that there are mutal funds that require high minimum investments. There are funds that reward investors with reduced fees if they put down 100k as a minimum.
One reason for the high investment is to draw serious investors. It is a larger commitment for someone to put down a large amount of money.
Some funds dont' like smaller investors as they don' want these investors putting in money and then selling off stock as it can impact the fund. I'm not sure how this equates to a company other than they are looking for serious investors.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Can't get the skills without already having the skills. That's the life of a millennial. Watch the US economy really tank when the baby boomers retire, and the majority of those left in the workforce are millennials working minimum wage jobs trying to pay of mountains of student loan debt.
That said, I'm interested in the game, but Pathfinder Online probably will fail. I've said this before, but MMOs are expensive, and even triple A publishers frequently run out of funding for the game and have to shut down the service. How can I honestly expect that an indy company that doesn't even have enough cash to begin development will be any less of a failure?
Territorial defense sounds good
I would like to add 2 points....
1. We are capitalists, in a capitalist world, if you think game makers are into charity, you are sadly mistaken.
2. for what it is worth, Pathfinder took the torch that Wizards of the Coast crapped on when they made 4th edition & have made a great table top rp game, Wizards has been allowing crap games to be made for years on the D&D name.
I hope they make a great game, only time will tell I guess.