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Do mmorpgs need to die? AKA MMORPG phoenix
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Problem is they are not dead, far from it. EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.
I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.
Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play.
Games have always been about problem solving, using your brain to over come the problems (levels, bosses, puzzles, etc) that the game has to offer. PAC MAN is a great example, the game was all problem solving and if PAC MAN was made today they would have a path that highlighted the safest path for each level.
The game would hold your hand and not allow you to fail unless you did not follow their instructions.
EQ1 had some of the best zones and encounters of any MMO to date. Nothing comes even close to the Raid zone Candy land on the moon. Nothing has even come close to that raid event. Even on farm status you could still wipe if not everyone was paying attention which is how it should be. SSRA Emp fight was another fun raid that even on farm status required everyone to be on the same page or it was a wipe.
Raids and group Dungeons should never get to the point where you can win without trying because you know the events inside and out. EQ1 even if you had done the raid or group event hundreds of times, it still required you to be on your "Game" to win or you could wipe.
In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.
Sooner or Later
LOL .. you like take a number and do nothing for 30 min then spend 1 min to kill a boss? I will pass. LFD running dungeon is 100x more fun than EQ camping for me.
No .. today's MMO has MUCH better risk vs reward. You risk wasting time to respawn, and the reward is killing the boss. You don' t risk losing days of progress.
EQ is wrong on risk vs reward, is wrong on camping, is wrong on fast travel, is wrong on no easy fast grouping.
I am very glad those days are gone and hopefullyl never returns. At the same time, if you like to play EQ type very boring (to me) games, be my guest. Just that i will never play such a game again.
Nope. Those 2 games are old ideas in term of gameplay. Camping in EQ is horribly. Waiting is horribly. Grinding is horrible. Combat has very little complex mechanics compared to today's games (like procs, CDs, rotation, synergies with different mechancis ...).
I wouldn't play it even if the graphics is updated. There are much better games.
Answer to the OP > No,
My belief is even if MMO's were to die, it would not fill the void that most people are looking to fill with something like the old MMO's (UO, EQ, SWG, Vanilla WOW).
In fact, UO is still running, how come the masses aren't playing it? Their lies the answer, Nobody wants to GO BACK!
What needs to happen is MORE crappy MMO's need to come out, to the point were people become indifferent (not bored or pissed or angry, but truly indifferent) about the MMO scene all together and then and only then will we see the true "next gen" MMO's.
Just like downloading music use to be, a small group of people with computers started sharing music, more people got into it, then even more, then Napster came, the masses started downloading and then laws started coming out and we went through the period were everyone was trying to find an alternative to Napster, all these pear to pear came out and then.... itunes came.
We are now in the period were everyone is trying to find an alternative.
itunes is what we need for MMO's. We need something new, something revolutionary and not something old and rehashed that everyone has fond memories of but is not willing to go back to or stick with.
I have a strong belief that the "next gen" MMO's are not here yet, they are coming. I have faith!!!
You think vanilla WoW was an original? There is a huge black hole in your knowledge sir, there was absolutely ZERO original about WoW.
Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. Paying attention to mob aggro ranges, pathign patterns, and mob densities in a given area were crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.
The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.
Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases.
BTW..Torchlight is not an MMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.
I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many turn to as your rebuttal when they can't come up with good reasons. I tried going back to EQ...but it is just so outdated now I can't do it. But the community there is still outstanding.
But I couldn't stay not because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running AND putting out expansions after 14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So many have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.
Out of all the TV shows I've watched over the years, a few have been great, some ok and the vast majority junk.
Out of all the movies I've seen, a few are great, some ok and the vast majority junk.
Out of all the music I've heard, a small percentage is great, some ok and the vast majority junk.
Out of all the mmo's I've played, a few have been great, some ok and the vast majority junk.
To me, saying that mmo's need to die is like wishing they'd stop making bad tv shows, movies and music.
I fit this whole issue into my 10% theory. Only 10% of anything is worth your time, the rest of it is junk. And the reason we can't stop it? My 10% doesn't necessarily overlap with anyone elses, and very few would exactly overlap me. So to someone, somewhere out there, what I call junk is in someone elses 10% 'great'.
Can we ban together and try an organized and collective effort at improving mmo's? Nope. Because thankfully, we all have our own opinions.
1000x harder is not more fun.
I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.
D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.
Doing nothing is not fun.
So you think better game play is standing around town using the LFG tool to find groups to level over going out into the world finding a group and hunting mobs? So a lobby game style game is a better MMO then using the world to level?
Camping required a lot of thinking, finding the right place, keeping up with the spawns, not pulling to many, aggro management. All played a huge factor in a good group, bad group or average group.
WOW was simply, follow the waypoints on the map and you cannot fail, if you do, hurry back, nothing lost for dying. Dungeons in WOW have to have "Hard Modes" to keep people running them or they would be too easy. EQ1 had no need for that as dungeons were hard to begin with and only got easy once you learned them. Crazy concept.
So its clear you are a game that wants instant gradification, no work, just reward. You want to be using "Epic" loot but do not want to put forth the effort that should be required to EARN them. WOW just handed them out for being there, EQ made you EARN them.
Much like today in kids sports, everyone gets a trophy for playing today, how wrong and stupid, it does not teach kids anything. Back in my day (Only 30 years old), yu got a trophy for winning and if you lost, you got to watch the other team with the trophy and you used that to work harder for next time, to train harder, to work harder and win next time.
I want to EARN my rewards, not just get them for showing up. EQ1 had the best quests ever. EPIC weapon quest where the best thing in MMOs and they are long gone because of people like you crying about how much effort they required. That was the point, they were EPIC (Rare) items.
EQ1, you replaced weapons and armor every few months if you were lucky, you got attached to Armor and weapons, each had a fun story of how you got it. In games like WOW, gear means nothing, no storys behind them, they are replaced as fast as you get them.
You people have enough of your instant gradificationg games, why can't those that want to use their brain and EARN their rewards have a game? Why do you feel that your way is the only way? Are you threated by players that want to EARN their own way and not get every handed to them on a silver platter?
Sooner or Later
Funny...because I never wasted time when I logged in. In dungeon crawls, sure...you had to meditate...but here's the kicker....you talked to other players and got to know them and have good conversations and make friends. I don't consider that time wasted. You explore, craft...I don't consider that time wasted if your into it. I never ran out of things to do in my time online in EQ...right up until I finally called it quits...mainly because I entered the military. I just don't see where is time wasted unless you allow it with your own in-game actions?
D3 is not even comparable to EQ1, not even the same genre but hey keep missing the point and using pointless examples.
D3 is not even as good as D2. Anyone that spend time playing D2 will agree with me. D3 is a garbage game and they keep making it easier and easier in every patch because people like you cry about how hard inferno and hell modes were.
Why did you waste time do nothing in EQ? When I wanted to go kill something I did, when I wanted to craft I did. No different then any game in that reguard.
D3 is an action game, EQ1 is an MMORPG. Way different type of games. D3 is worst then D2. compare apples to apples. Torchlight is way better then D3.
Harder does equal more fun. Harder means more effort required to Win and is more fun when you do win. Winning without trying is no fun. Winning every time is not fun. Failure makes winning better and always has.
Sooner or Later
Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.
Old school gamer here from days of UO.
I like modern MMOS. Change is way of life and i am not a teenager anymore. So new casual style stuits me perfectly.
You're kidding, right? Brains?
I played UO from release and my sub it still active to this day, fifteen years later. I play occasionally when the nostaligia bug hits me. However, I'm not going to hype older games because of some dissatisfaction with modern MMOs. You didn't need to use your brain to play games like UO and EQ. Not in their current state and certainly not back then. Unless you consider the act of plopping your ass into a chair for the majority of your life just to mash the same keystrokes over and over as using your brain. It dosn't matter if its 1-2-3 or "I wish to lock this down", it's still repetitive, mindless drivel.
I've noticed a trend in people on these forums to equate 'hard' with 'time-consuming'. UO/EQ were not hard. They did however, suck your life away.
No thank you, never again.
I do not, I played WoW for awhile but never touched SWTOR. I am playing EQ1 and GW2 currently. GW2 has amazing dungeons.
Sooner or Later
Really? "I win" button? Did you finish all the WOW hard mode raids? Those are so hard that Blizz has to nerf them constantly.
And yet they're still easier than just about any raid in EverQuest or DAoC.
WoW raid strategy = hurl yourself at the encounter over and over and over until you discover its timing gimmick. No penalty for failure so who cares.
And only 2% of players were ever successful in Sunwell. So apparently it does not work for 98% of the players ... too difficult.
And so what they are easier than EQ and DAoC which make the games too difficult? The right difficulty is fun. Too difficult (or too time consuming) is not. Too easy is not.
In fact, best system is D3 1.05 with difficulty levels you can tune. Having a raid that only 0.01% of the player can do is just waste of resources.
Wow, Diabo3, Borderland 2, DCUO, DDO, STO ... all better games. Won't touch EQ with a ten foot pole. If you like to take a number and waste 90% of your time waiting for spawns, be my guest and don't count me in.
Wow. When I read it, it was a pretty mind blowing, and courageous, question; Do MMORPGs need to die. Jinkies.
I didn't really appreciate to whole "Oh let true fans be left and they get good games" yabbyabba. I assume you, as anyone, have a dislike for people on MMORPGs who have extremely poor attitudes and so forth. No surprise, we've all seen it. Zergs, yawn.
It would be pretty impressive to see it die, in the way that seeing a massive building getting demolished. Whether that's good or bad for the genre itself is very much open to interpretation, I figure.
MMORPG phoenix... The idea is very nifty.
Now see? By stopping there, you missed most of my comment - the part where I said that older gamers are working 40+ hours and need more flexibility in order to have family time, to step away without getting other people killed if you just noticed your kid is shaving the cat or some other semi-emergency. You missed the part where I said there's no reason that there can't be room for all of us, AND the part where I suggested to the OP that he start a kickstartr campaign to fund the kind of game he's looking for.
My kinship is full of over-30's (age, not levels). Some find time to do proper Raids, and enjoy the hell out of them. Others fellow with kin members who understand that home/family has to come first even if it means the fellowship has to take a break from time to time. Still others mostly solo, and lend a hand when needed. We ALL enjoy the hell out of the community we've formed. We've adapted as our game of choice has changed, and yes, 5 years later we're still playing. I just wonder why the OP doesn't understand that a for-profit company would not want to alienate the majority of its paying subscribers just because a small group of players miss the "good old days".
Thanks for showing you know absolutely nothing about EQ. Waiting for spawns hasn't been a thing in what, 8 years? And most of the games you listed aren't MMOs, which is what we're comparing here.