Something you need to remember. This is a B2P game. Once you buy it, they have there money and don't really need an end game to entice you to keep playing since there are no monthly fees. The jouys of B2P. Rinse and repeat when the next expansion comes out.
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I've seen this post so many times in various flavors.
Here's the rub - Money runs out. No income (well none from the game) in development means investors need to be paid. Server costs, ongoing staff of 100? 200? (anyone know?), more advertising etc.
This type of game (box buy) needs people playing so that the average X% will buy from the cash shop. If 'they got your money after the box' was all they were after, the game could die right now. The cash shop has to thrive to be able to remain a money making venture. If they made 2 million box sales and 50K active players remained because the game was crap, it would not (in the most likely scenarios) be viable. Only the beancounters know what % they expect to buy gems and how many will repeat on a monthly basis etc.
Sure people leaving is built into their averages but they have to retain players, or more specifically players interest and desire to log in to retain ongoing CS sales and continue to make money.
My bad. I forgot the cash shop was there to keep money coming in between expansions. That means the games designed to make you want to spend money in the cash shop, but you don't have to which is why I fogot about it. Still the CS doesn't give you anything else to do once you have reached your goals. Unless of course spending money is what you enjoy.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I don't know if it's too easy, I think it's too automated. Dragon's Lair the mmo. The final fight verse Zytan is a perfect example of this. It's like an interactive movie at times.
Dragon's Lair was hard to a kid like me lol. GW2 could be hard to some people I guess.
Something you need to remember. This is a B2P game. Once you buy it, they have their money and don't really need an end game to entice you to keep playing since there are no monthly fees. The joys of B2P. Rinse and repeat when the next expansion comes out.
From what I have found the game seems focused on sPVP. If that isn't your thing then it's probably best to find another game as this one may not keep your attention long. Im only playing because I was given GW2 as a gift otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with it.
Pretty much my impression of the game. They've released what amounts to a standard video game, which just happens to have multi-player content and a cash shop to help bring in additional revenue.
I wish a developer who actually understands the experience MMORPGs as a genre was intended to be would step up and make a proper MMORPG again. Even Blizzard understood it with Vanilla WoW and TBC. That's directly attributable to its main creators being big EQ and UO fans when they created it. Though it was still easier and faster than most MMOs to come before it, WoW was a much more challenging and interesting game back then. Of course, they've since lost the plot as well and have gone for the "make it as fast and easy as possible, while throwing as many hokey achievement grinds at people as we can to keep them playing".
If anyone's considering coming back with hyperbolic retorts about people living in their basements playing 24/7, or how it was so horrible that it could take a year to cap a character in one of those older MMOs... If you never actually played those games in their hey-day, and you didn't actually experience first-hand the kind of communities they had and the way people approached them (hint: they weren't "all about end-game" to players back then), keep your remarks to yourself, because it'll only demonstrate your ignorance on the topic.
I mean this game has been out for 2 months and most ppl are at engame alrdy.Hardcore gamers have alrdy made full sets of exotic gear, caped several crafts, and prolly 100% map completion. I thought mmo's where about the journey getting to cap and once you reach cap new stuff whould open up for maxed players.
I'm more of a casually player myself, and i've alrdy reached lvl 80 and 70% map completion. In other mmo's i spent literally months just to reach level cap. This game i swear i broke my record for reaching cap and i wasn't even trying.
How is this game gona keep us playing if everything comes to ez and quick?
PS. MMO's like eq, wow, uo, ffxi, to name a few lasted years, how in the world will this game live up to thoughs if ppl run outa things to do. Those games you never ran outa things to do.
What you complain about was a major selling point from start of GW2 development. Thats properly why you get thosse hillarious offtopic coments.
The answer to your question is called horisontal progression. And it is a fair question for anyone if GW2 has enough of that to their liking.
But rest asured that ArenaNet will keep on adding things to do in this game. If those fit what your like is another story.
I'm not sold on this one yet. GW2 has cosmetic progression, if that can be callled progression. Forgive for saying, TSW has horizontal progression, where you continue to learn abilities for the life of you character. These abilities don't make you better, but the make you more flexible. EVE does as well with all the skills you can learn.
True, nothing new. This problem is common to all new games. Get to level cap in a couple of weeks playing casually, end of free month and you are already bored, look for new game. It's not only GW2, it's virtually any recent game.
Dont forget people complaining about how grindy the game is as well...
You cant both have little grind and 6 months to levelcap or more, it just isnt possible.
The real problem is that MMOs changed so casual players can play them as well but most of us here didnt really change. You shouldnt play any "modern" MMO long term the same way you played EQ, AC, Lineage or M59.
GW2 is an excellent game and does what it should great but if you cap out in a few weeks you are playing it too much. Yeah, I do have an 80 myself with most of the gear exoctic so maybe I shouldnt be preaching, but the fact is that modern MMOs are made for people who also have a life and can kick in an hour or 2 every day instead of a full days work like EQ.
The thing is that old MMO players are in minority today. And we should maybe take a hint and play less, or play several games beside each other.
True, nothing new. This problem is common to all new games. Get to level cap in a couple of weeks playing casually, end of free month and you are already bored, look for new game. It's not only GW2, it's virtually any recent game.
Dont forget people complaining about how grindy the game is as well...
You cant both have little grind and 6 months to levelcap or more, it just isnt possible.
The real problem is that MMOs changed so casual players can play them as well but most of us here didnt really change. You shouldnt play any "modern" MMO long term the same way you played EQ, AC, Lineage or M59.
GW2 is an excellent game and does what it should great but if you cap out in a few weeks you are playing it too much. Yeah, I do have an 80 myself with most of the gear exoctic so maybe I shouldnt be preaching, but the fact is that modern MMOs are made for people who also have a life and can kick in an hour or 2 every day instead of a full days work like EQ.
The thing is that old MMO players are in minority today. And we should maybe take a hint and play less, or play several games beside each other.
The alternative is to make alts.
Ehh? i play 2 hours a day and maybe 3 to 4 hrs on weekends and it took me 18 days to hit lvl 80. You don't need to play a lot to hit 80 in GW2 because the leveling curve is designed to be fast on purpose. GW2 has the fastest leveling i have experinced of all the modern MMOS and yes it is on purpose.
No bully. Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
Keep in mind that under the current diminishing return system on dungeons, you can only run an explorable dungeon path once per day, before getting hit by DR and receive 1/3 the reward for the remainder of the day. That basically means that you can run a dungeon three times per day before you get penalised for running it more. Yet, you need the runs to buy the specific dungeon armor set.
Of course they boosted the number of tokens for the first run so running the same path 3 times actually give more tokens now than before.
Ah, and the path never goes under 20 tokens a run (except if you are finishing it super fast which strongly indicates an exploit or bug or even simply an Anet oversight9.
But running the 3 different paths instead of the same path will yield even more.
How about ... no?
Before the DR changes each path (no matter how long) rewarded 40 tokens. Which means that with the curent system you need three runs to cover the old two.
Running the three different paths and stop there does give more than it used to, so you are rewarded with more if you run the three paths and stop, than with the previous system. The difference however is that the three paths are different in difficulty and time required, so we'll need to talk with specific dungeons in mind to calculate how much of an actual gain running these three paths are compared to the old system of running the easiest multiple times.
Anet is just trying to slow people down. DR in karma and gold rewards, extremely low honor badges drop rate, DR in in dungeon tokens. It's not the first mmorpg that has mechanics that try to artificially slow the players down. It's just that they didn't expect that people will be done with the content as fast as they did.
At this point if you want a good laugh (or get some lessons on how to artificially hype your community over your product) you can watch the manifesto.
How about yes?
Lets see.
AC - Used to be 5 tokens per chest (and it was either 15 0r 20 total).. Now 60 tokens.
That is extra 40 tokens per path.
What Anet is trying to do is prevent optimal ways of playing that emerge either by exploits (meaning some would either reap the rewards of those exploits) or deviating from Anet design.
If Anet want to slow players they can simply cap people absolute gains or lock dungeons - they cap gains for repeated activities.
Anet is simply admitiing they can't possibly guarantee that there is no exploits or that any change they make won't break somehing, so they have a safety net in case shit happens,
What happens when one path is much easier than another? People farm it and the other paths will simply not be played - bad design. Anet way isn't perfect, but at least it makes other paths rewarding and reward players capable of tackling tougher challenges.
DR allows a player to play witout worrying about trading freedom for max rewards.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by ShakyMo No bully. Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?
Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.
I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....
Originally posted by ShakyMo No bully. Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?
Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.
I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....
TSW isn't a horizontal progression game.
All of these games are gated, some are harsher when it comes to the gating than others, but all are gated.
But if you consider crafting in TSw is a way of allowing horizontal progression then in GW2 with my 2nd I can go to any area in the game and be successful since I can level by crafting with the materials gathered by my first character.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)
Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.
I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)
If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.
Something you need to remember. This is a B2P game. Once you buy it, they have their money and don't really need an end game to entice you to keep playing since there are no monthly fees. The joys of B2P. Rinse and repeat when the next expansion comes out.
From what I have found the game seems focused on sPVP. If that isn't your thing then it's probably best to find another game as this one may not keep your attention long. Im only playing because I was given GW2 as a gift otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with it.
Not quite. Look at the world map. Stare at it a bit - there are many places that ccan be added in. Like in GW1, with Sorrow's Furnace, which was added 6 months after release of Prophecies, they added in a new area.
Your B2P explanation is old and stale and does not cover A.Net. They have a history of adding thing into the game as they did with GW1.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No bully. Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?
Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.
I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....
TSW isn't a horizontal progression game.
All of these games are gated, some are harsher when it comes to the gating than others, but all are gated.
But if you consider crafting in TSw is a way of allowing horizontal progression then in GW2 with my 2nd I can go to any area in the game and be successful since I can level by crafting with the materials gathered by my first character.
seriously man? my point with crafting in TSW is that you can craft anything and there is no leveling system involved. In other words (Barney speaking now), you will NEVER level one single level while crafting...you can craft ANYTHING as long as you have the materials.
Your alt can't make anything they want in GW2 at anytime...they first must level their crafting up.
As for your alt leveling through crafting....they still HAVE to level....nice try
True, nothing new. This problem is common to all new games. Get to level cap in a couple of weeks playing casually, end of free month and you are already bored, look for new game. It's not only GW2, it's virtually any recent game.
Dont forget people complaining about how grindy the game is as well...
You cant both have little grind and 6 months to levelcap or more, it just isnt possible.
The real problem is that MMOs changed so casual players can play them as well but most of us here didnt really change. You shouldnt play any "modern" MMO long term the same way you played EQ, AC, Lineage or M59.
GW2 is an excellent game and does what it should great but if you cap out in a few weeks you are playing it too much. Yeah, I do have an 80 myself with most of the gear exoctic so maybe I shouldnt be preaching, but the fact is that modern MMOs are made for people who also have a life and can kick in an hour or 2 every day instead of a full days work like EQ.
The thing is that old MMO players are in minority today. And we should maybe take a hint and play less, or play several games beside each other.
The alternative is to make alts.
I am playing, as you say, a couple of hours per day but I still got to level 80 in about a month. So even for a casual gamer like me, GW 2 is far too easy to cap.
And before someone asks, no I dont have 100% map completion or finished every dungeon. But so what? I have to finish every mundane activity the MMORPG has before I can say I am bored? No.
So GW 2 is far to easy to cap and does not offer much once you do cap. After getting exotic gear, there is not much to improve in that, skill points stopped mattering when I got the skills I needed at level 50 or so and WvW is an endless squirrel wheel of flipping points back and forth.
So even for a casual gamer like myself, GW 2 does not offer more than a month or two of quality game play.
Originally posted by ShakyMo The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)
Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.
I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)
If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.
vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game. I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects. Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game. GW2's progression on all levels is vertical. Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.
You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No bully. Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?
Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.
I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....
TSW isn't a horizontal progression game.
All of these games are gated, some are harsher when it comes to the gating than others, but all are gated.
But if you consider crafting in TSw is a way of allowing horizontal progression then in GW2 with my 2nd I can go to any area in the game and be successful since I can level by crafting with the materials gathered by my first character.
seriously man? my point with crafting in TSW is that you can craft anything and there is no leveling system involved. In other words (Barney speaking now), you will NEVER level one single level while crafting...you can craft ANYTHING as long as you have the materials.
Your alt can't make anything they want in GW2 at anytime...they first must level their crafting up.
As for your alt leveling through crafting....they still HAVE to level....nice try
TSW has realitivly flat verticle progession after egypt, and horizpntal progression that seems endless through the ability wheel. Add in the thousands of pieces of clothes and all the faction and deck clothing items.
Of the games released in the last 4 years TSW has the most horizonal progression through the ability wheel alone, not even countting the cosmetics, which is the most of any game since, since, ever? CoH maybe?
To say anything else is either a lack of understanding what horizontal progression is, or just not being honest.
btw you don't need 10.4 to do any of the nightmare content.
Originally posted by ShakyMo The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)
Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.
I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)
If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.
vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game. I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects. Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game. GW2's progression on all levels is vertical. Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.
You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.
You obviously didn't play GW1. The other chapters didn't increase your level either but did increase in difficulty. This is what A.Net did with GW1 and that was BEFORE Age of Conan - nice try.
In game like gw2, coh or daoc, the graph would be at 45 degrees until you just fractionaly passed max level, then it would flatten out in the case of gw2, or drop to like 10 degrees in the case of daoc (because of renown)
In a vertical themepark like wow you get the same 45 degrees until full level, then you get this stepping thing where its flat then suddenly shoots up at like 80 degrees, with a step for each tier of gear, and new steps with each expansion
Thirdly you have sandboxes like eve where its a curve that goes mostly vertical at the start then goes mostly horizontal
Tsw falls easily into the second category, although many if us thought before release it would be like the third.
It had no more normal levels that's true. It introduced a whole new set of levels with that alternate advancement thing It also introduced new tiers of gear (but Aoc was already in its way to generic wowclonedom before that when Craig Morrison room over)
Want an example if horizontal expansion City of villains All the daoc expansions except trials of Atlantis (which did add new tier of gear) All the gw1 expansions except eye of the north, which added new levels, but still had the easily obtainable max gear, grinded gear just looked better thing Every eve expansion
Originally posted by ShakyMo Imagine a graph of time played vs power
In game like gw2, coh or daoc, the graph would be at 45 degrees until you just fractionaly passed max level, then it would flatten out in the case of gw2, or drop to like 10 degrees in the case of daoc (because of renown)
In a vertical themepark like wow you get the same 45 degrees until full level, then you get this stepping thing where its flat then suddenly shoots up at like 80 degrees, with a step for each tier of gear, and new steps with each expansion
Thirdly you have sandboxes like eve where its a curve that goes mostly vertical at the start then goes mostly horizontal
Tsw falls easily into the second category, although many if us thought before release it would be like the third.
Your correct about this. This is not TSW though. TSW is much much flater more like 1 tier split into .1 .2 .3 .4. It's like a 500 ap difference or about 200 dps. You don't even need it to do the content. Yes there is verticle progression in TSW. No one ever said there wasn't
And why are you leaving out all the horizontal progression in TSW? By the time you reach "end game" in TSW you will most likley only have 30% of the wheel complete. Not only is the other 70% horizontal, it's active. You can use it.
For those who just want cosmetics, thats there too in abundance. Much more than the competition,
Originally posted by ShakyMo The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)
Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.
I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)
If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.
vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game. I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects. Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game. GW2's progression on all levels is vertical. Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.
You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.
Wait what? You seemed so rigid in your definition of horizontal progresson tell you said AoC. RotGS added a faction system which is just another form of vertical progression on top of the leveling system. A very grindy one at that. Or did you mean something else?
Bully, well you can repeat the whole gear grind twice again If you want heal, tank and dps gear (with pvp gear being a mix of tank and either of the other two) - well more if you want hit based,pen based,crit based etc..
Another flaw with tsw imo, as the gear dependancy in the game discourages experimentation with the skill wheel, you have to stay in a narrow set of builds that go with your gear.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 Oh no!I have briefly visited every illustrated point on the map, done the dungeon storymodes once, tried the odd explorable mode and found it too hard, levelled to 80 and bought myself a set of craftable exotics.What IS there left to do!!!!!!?????Allow me to explain with an illustration.I go to Rome to see the city........ do I;(a) climb to the top of the tallest building by the most direct route, take in every view from the top and then get on the return plane and go home, complaining my visit was unfulfilling; or(b) walk down every street, take in a range of cafes, restaurants, museums, the roman ruins, the Vatican, art galleries and theatres et al and enjoy an immersion in Italian culture and history.... no prizes for the right answer....
Comments
My bad. I forgot the cash shop was there to keep money coming in between expansions. That means the games designed to make you want to spend money in the cash shop, but you don't have to which is why I fogot about it. Still the CS doesn't give you anything else to do once you have reached your goals. Unless of course spending money is what you enjoy.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I don't know if it's too easy, I think it's too automated. Dragon's Lair the mmo. The final fight verse Zytan is a perfect example of this. It's like an interactive movie at times.
Dragon's Lair was hard to a kid like me lol. GW2 could be hard to some people I guess.
Pretty much my impression of the game. They've released what amounts to a standard video game, which just happens to have multi-player content and a cash shop to help bring in additional revenue.
I wish a developer who actually understands the experience MMORPGs as a genre was intended to be would step up and make a proper MMORPG again. Even Blizzard understood it with Vanilla WoW and TBC. That's directly attributable to its main creators being big EQ and UO fans when they created it. Though it was still easier and faster than most MMOs to come before it, WoW was a much more challenging and interesting game back then. Of course, they've since lost the plot as well and have gone for the "make it as fast and easy as possible, while throwing as many hokey achievement grinds at people as we can to keep them playing".
If anyone's considering coming back with hyperbolic retorts about people living in their basements playing 24/7, or how it was so horrible that it could take a year to cap a character in one of those older MMOs... If you never actually played those games in their hey-day, and you didn't actually experience first-hand the kind of communities they had and the way people approached them (hint: they weren't "all about end-game" to players back then), keep your remarks to yourself, because it'll only demonstrate your ignorance on the topic.
I'm not sold on this one yet. GW2 has cosmetic progression, if that can be callled progression. Forgive for saying, TSW has horizontal progression, where you continue to learn abilities for the life of you character. These abilities don't make you better, but the make you more flexible. EVE does as well with all the skills you can learn.
Dont forget people complaining about how grindy the game is as well...
You cant both have little grind and 6 months to levelcap or more, it just isnt possible.
The real problem is that MMOs changed so casual players can play them as well but most of us here didnt really change. You shouldnt play any "modern" MMO long term the same way you played EQ, AC, Lineage or M59.
GW2 is an excellent game and does what it should great but if you cap out in a few weeks you are playing it too much. Yeah, I do have an 80 myself with most of the gear exoctic so maybe I shouldnt be preaching, but the fact is that modern MMOs are made for people who also have a life and can kick in an hour or 2 every day instead of a full days work like EQ.
The thing is that old MMO players are in minority today. And we should maybe take a hint and play less, or play several games beside each other.
The alternative is to make alts.
Ehh? i play 2 hours a day and maybe 3 to 4 hrs on weekends and it took me 18 days to hit lvl 80. You don't need to play a lot to hit 80 in GW2 because the leveling curve is designed to be fast on purpose. GW2 has the fastest leveling i have experinced of all the modern MMOS and yes it is on purpose.
Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.
In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.
Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.
How about yes?
Lets see.
AC - Used to be 5 tokens per chest (and it was either 15 0r 20 total).. Now 60 tokens.
That is extra 40 tokens per path.
What Anet is trying to do is prevent optimal ways of playing that emerge either by exploits (meaning some would either reap the rewards of those exploits) or deviating from Anet design.
If Anet want to slow players they can simply cap people absolute gains or lock dungeons - they cap gains for repeated activities.
Anet is simply admitiing they can't possibly guarantee that there is no exploits or that any change they make won't break somehing, so they have a safety net in case shit happens,
What happens when one path is much easier than another? People farm it and the other paths will simply not be played - bad design. Anet way isn't perfect, but at least it makes other paths rewarding and reward players capable of tackling tougher challenges.
DR allows a player to play witout worrying about trading freedom for max rewards.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?
Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.
I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....
HAHAHA! I agree
TSW isn't a horizontal progression game.
All of these games are gated, some are harsher when it comes to the gating than others, but all are gated.
But if you consider crafting in TSw is a way of allowing horizontal progression then in GW2 with my 2nd I can go to any area in the game and be successful since I can level by crafting with the materials gathered by my first character.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.
I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)
If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.
Not quite. Look at the world map. Stare at it a bit - there are many places that ccan be added in. Like in GW1, with Sorrow's Furnace, which was added 6 months after release of Prophecies, they added in a new area.
Your B2P explanation is old and stale and does not cover A.Net. They have a history of adding thing into the game as they did with GW1.
seriously man? my point with crafting in TSW is that you can craft anything and there is no leveling system involved. In other words (Barney speaking now), you will NEVER level one single level while crafting...you can craft ANYTHING as long as you have the materials.
Your alt can't make anything they want in GW2 at anytime...they first must level their crafting up.
As for your alt leveling through crafting....they still HAVE to level....nice try
I am playing, as you say, a couple of hours per day but I still got to level 80 in about a month. So even for a casual gamer like me, GW 2 is far too easy to cap.
And before someone asks, no I dont have 100% map completion or finished every dungeon. But so what? I have to finish every mundane activity the MMORPG has before I can say I am bored? No.
So GW 2 is far to easy to cap and does not offer much once you do cap. After getting exotic gear, there is not much to improve in that, skill points stopped mattering when I got the skills I needed at level 50 or so and WvW is an endless squirrel wheel of flipping points back and forth.
So even for a casual gamer like myself, GW 2 does not offer more than a month or two of quality game play.
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vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game. I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects. Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game. GW2's progression on all levels is vertical. Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.
You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.
TSW has realitivly flat verticle progession after egypt, and horizpntal progression that seems endless through the ability wheel. Add in the thousands of pieces of clothes and all the faction and deck clothing items.
Of the games released in the last 4 years TSW has the most horizonal progression through the ability wheel alone, not even countting the cosmetics, which is the most of any game since, since, ever? CoH maybe?
To say anything else is either a lack of understanding what horizontal progression is, or just not being honest.
btw you don't need 10.4 to do any of the nightmare content.
You obviously didn't play GW1. The other chapters didn't increase your level either but did increase in difficulty. This is what A.Net did with GW1 and that was BEFORE Age of Conan - nice try.
In game like gw2, coh or daoc, the graph would be at 45 degrees until you just fractionaly passed max level, then it would flatten out in the case of gw2, or drop to like 10 degrees in the case of daoc (because of renown)
In a vertical themepark like wow you get the same 45 degrees until full level, then you get this stepping thing where its flat then suddenly shoots up at like 80 degrees, with a step for each tier of gear, and new steps with each expansion
Thirdly you have sandboxes like eve where its a curve that goes mostly vertical at the start then goes mostly horizontal
Tsw falls easily into the second category, although many if us thought before release it would be like the third.
VERTICAL EXPANSION
It had no more normal levels that's true.
It introduced a whole new set of levels with that alternate advancement thing
It also introduced new tiers of gear (but Aoc was already in its way to generic wowclonedom before that when Craig Morrison room over)
Want an example if horizontal expansion
City of villains
All the daoc expansions except trials of Atlantis (which did add new tier of gear)
All the gw1 expansions except eye of the north, which added new levels, but still had the easily obtainable max gear, grinded gear just looked better thing
Every eve expansion
Your correct about this. This is not TSW though. TSW is much much flater more like 1 tier split into .1 .2 .3 .4. It's like a 500 ap difference or about 200 dps. You don't even need it to do the content. Yes there is verticle progression in TSW. No one ever said there wasn't
And why are you leaving out all the horizontal progression in TSW? By the time you reach "end game" in TSW you will most likley only have 30% of the wheel complete. Not only is the other 70% horizontal, it's active. You can use it.
For those who just want cosmetics, thats there too in abundance. Much more than the competition,
Wait what? You seemed so rigid in your definition of horizontal progresson tell you said AoC. RotGS added a faction system which is just another form of vertical progression on top of the leveling system. A very grindy one at that. Or did you mean something else?
Another flaw with tsw imo, as the gear dependancy in the game discourages experimentation with the skill wheel, you have to stay in a narrow set of builds that go with your gear.
I logged in just to say I enjoyed this analogy.