Originally posted by cmorris975 In what way was the original Darkfall a themepark? My idea of a themepark has themed zones, usually instances and is heavily quest driven.
well you have one character which you develop using skills you buy and unlock to level them up.
Yup one char per account so that your actions can be tracked by the community. Not sure what your point on skills is? Every game I have ever played has had some sort of skill system so whats your point?
similar to how Weapon skill system in WoW use to work. this isnt very Sandbox, since a themepark MMO or RPG can have this same thing. You get access to all the skills. Its just like a Themepark with large level grind. "You can get everything, but just have to put in the task of leveling up to get it all"
thats not sandboxy. Themeparks do that as well...
LOL nothing like wow. You level skills by using that skill not by grinding mobs for xp so you can "level". What you use is what you "skill" up. Yes you can learn everything but it would take a long time, which is why specializations have been added. These are temporary specializations NOT CLASSES and can be easily changed to fit your mood.
The PvE, well what PvE content do I make? The PvE is boring and dull. I am forced to play the PvE that the developers have made and only what they made. (Which is dull and lame compared to most any other MMO's PvE content) Even Runescape had better PvE than this. I cant make my own PvE at all. Everything is Developer made, but terrible all at the same time.
not very sandbox like, since themeparks also do this.
So this statement guarantees your troll status. The pve in Darkfall is the best in the business, if you like very smart ai, and non-scripted encounters. NPCs in Darkfall call for help, hide, heal, use ranged, basically do whatever they can to make life more diffucult for you. THEY DO NOT JUST STAND THERE AND LET YOU KILL THEM LIKE IN %99 of all other mmos.
As far as creating your own pve content people do it all the time in Darkfall. They do all kinds of events with different objectives, basically whatever they can think up.
The Aim based combat,,,, um, Tera has this as well, which is a themepark, nuff said on that,,,,
PvP is nothing but a massive guild/alliance battle for premade cities with fixed developer upgrades. Calling Guild City battles sandbox, is like calling Halaa and Wintergrasp in WoW sandbox. The same concept, just across more factions( which in this case is the guild/alliances). Not sandbox at all about this.
not sure what FFA has to do with being sandbox, since themepark MMO aslo have this....
Actually kinda close on this one. The close part being the word MASSIVE, if you have never experienced a fully open world siege battle then you really are missing out. THERE ARE NO instances, this means you can chase someone for hours on end without ever switching zones or waiting on a loading screen. Comparing the size and scale of darkfall to ANY themepark mmo on the market is the real joke here. Darkfall's map size is absolutely massive. To use your wow analogy think the entire world of warcraft all continents, subcontinents, zones, whatever all rolled up into ONE zone and then multiply that size by about 3 and now we are talking about the size of the world of Darkfall.
again, what are the Sandbox elements?
Exploration? Yeah cause you cant explore in a themepark MMO,,,,, isnt this what GW2 been getting all the good news about, was its exploration options? not very sandbox like....
Exploration is alive and well in the world of Darkfall. Your argument fails miserably in the fact that it does not take into account the actual size of the world. Darkfall is something like 10x bigger than gw2......more exploration? Darkfall is MASSIVE it would take a dedicated explorer months and months to see it all.
again,,, what was the sandbox elements in Darkfall 1?
I look at Wurm Online, I look back at Darkfall 1.....
look back at Wurm Online, look back at Darkfall 1, still not seeing the sandbox in this.
Look at WoW/Rift/AoC/Warhammer/GW2/Vanguard, than look back at Darkfall1. Oh now I see a connection....
Darkfall 1 is an open ended endgame themepark.
You progress, and once you hit endgame, you do whatever.
Sandbox is all about player made content. Which you have none in Darkfall at all.
Again look at Wurm Online and come back to Darkfall1 with that same statement that its a Sandbox... lol
You are a troll, you spout nonsense and should not be taken seriously. You do not know what you are talking about and are simply a Darkfall hater. Move along we don't want your kind here.
You can't have an "open ended themepark" just like you can't have a "public instance".
curious as to what you consider Skyrim if you had to clasify it.. it's very open ended you pretty much can do what you want or you can follow the storyline but i wouldn't say it's a sandbox or a straight themepark.. feels like an open ended themepark to me:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by ShakyMo Skyrim is a hybrid, more in sandbox direction since hearthfire.
which to me would fit the open-ended themepark classification:) but hybrid would work just as well.. just found it funny because how he stated it sounded like he was saying you couldn't have a themepark/sandbox hybrid
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You can't have an "open ended themepark" just like you can't have a "public instance".
Thank you,
Fuck Darkfall is a fucking Sandbox whole heartedly, just because it didnt have every fuckin Element of Sandbox that you wanted in it doesnt make it any less of a Sandbox.
I never played it, but from what I gather you can form your own guild towns and stuff in df. (And invade those of other guilds) You can also build big ships and stuff?
Doesn't sound very wow like to me.
Sandbox uo, eve, perpetuum Hybrid swg / ac
Not sure where DF falls, hybrid it sandbox though
P.s. open ended themepark is daoc definetly, gw2 maybe, EQ maybe.
I'm not sure most theme parks are themeparks any more anyway. Most of them once you level turn into god awful lobby games / cooprpg like gw1 - e.g. swtor, lotro, Aoc, wow, tsw,+ rift & aion sorta
Originally posted by ShakyMo An open ended themepark would be something like daoc, possibly gw2
DF is surely a sandbox or at least a hybrid like swg & ac.
This threads just full of weird, along with the obligatory strained comparisons to the likes of counterstrike and call of duty from our hardcore pve "friends"
Didn't you call Skyrim a themepark? Pretty sure you did.
Game will be as much a sandbox as the current DF, which is to say, not much of one.
I can play the game any way I want. My first character I just did quests and crafting, selling to people and finding the best mining spots and going out to fish.
After the US server went up I created and archer/ranger and would make camp fires and skin animals. I would use the "use flag" system to create my own quests and hand them out to noobies. The rewards were battle bags.
How is that not a sandbox?
You can do pretty much the same in LOTRO. Does it make LOTRO a sandbox too?
You are not free to go anywhere in LotRO. It is instanced, zoned, and locked out based on what quests you have.
You cannot use every item and armor in LotRO.
You cannot go out fishing/treasure hunting in LotRO, as it has no boats. You can fish on the shore, but that's about it.
You cannot create your own quests in LotRO.
You cannot attack anyone you want in LotRO.
You cannot use any skill you want in LotRO.
In LotRO you have a linear class, a linear quest progression, a linear zone progression, a linear raid progression, the game has very hard coded rules on what you can do and when you can do them.
Darkfall is not the deepest sandbox, but it is indeed a sandbox.
Originally posted by Kuinn You cant build sandcastles in it, so it's a sandlessbox :P
i see what you did there
Darkfall is my defenition of a real sandbox. can't really explain why... but i defenatly think its the best FFA pvp full loot game out there, the sheer feeling you get while playing the game as opposed to other liner theme park mmos really makes you understand that nothing is safe, and that good people is what my idea of sandbox is all about.
Darkfall is doing big steps in themepark direction since the the third expansion and this expansion will be a big step in that same direction.
The developers unfortunately decided to betray their ideals and to create just a big PvP arena and not a living sandbox experience from the looks of it and the information available at this point.
pitty it had potential to become a real good MMORPG but now at best it will be a good PvP arena with has to compete with CS and other shooter.
This quote from the community Q&A (don't forget they add also global AH and instant travel to your body afer dead) reveals their mindset and reveals at that, that they absolutely have no clue or desire to develop a complex and meaningfull sandbox game.
Judging by announced Darkfall Unholy Wars features, and the recent video interview, Darkfall Unholy Wars appears to be taking the direction of a 'PvP arena' game rather than a complete sandbox MMORPG. Could you clear up any confusion regarding this? Will Darkfall Unholy Wars no longer be the sandbox game the original developers set out to create, but instead just become a 'PvP arena' game?
That impression may have been given because we are trying to make the PvP aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars and especially medium to large scale battles more accessible. Because of that some new features we have announced may have given you that impression. At the same time though, all the sandbox features are still there intact and quite a few have been improved. Sieging with all the politics involved for example is still a very important aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars. The addition of the conquest system that blends villages to the whole territory control aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars is also intended to improve the sandbox aspect of the game. There is also a completely new feature, that we are very excited about, that will allow clans to play the part of merceneries in sieges. In short, someone that considers the current Darkfall to be a sandbox game will find Unholy Wars to be even more so.
They even made the new world smaller igonring the exploration type of playstyle or those who would love to hunt for remotely hideout. Howe sandboxy is to cut landmass. I have never see in my live a developer cutting landmass, any serious developer is putting additional landmass and new regions in a expansion .
I'm confused, Darthraiden. First, weren't you one of DF's biggest supporters for a very long time? Strange to see you on the other side of the fence all of a sudden.
Second, how can you quote that entire interview excerpt you include and then still come out saying "See? They're making it more themepark like"? Did you even read the entire thing you quoted, or are you only focusing on the parts that support your argument? Are you just ignoring it? That's a serious question, because I can't fathom how you take all they describe and still get "more themepark" from it. Are you being sarcastic and I'm just totally missing it?
As for making the world smaller being a bad thing... I think it's a good thing. You could reduce Agon's overall size by 1/3 and it would still be a massive world with tons to explore. The thing is, in my opinion, DF's landmass was one of its problems in current DF because the distances are so great that it really separates people. A MMORPG that relies on community interaction (be it for PvP or for trade, or what-have-you) really benefits from people being able to meet up and do things without having to first travel for up to an hour or more. There's a point where "tons of landmass to explore" becomesa hindrance rather than a benefit.
If DF had managed to bring in tons of players where every area was healthily populated, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But that wasn't the case. You could run for an hour in that game and not see another soul.
Originally posted by cmorris975 In what way was the original Darkfall a themepark? My idea of a themepark has themed zones, usually instances and is heavily quest driven.
well you have one character which you develop using skills you buy and unlock to level them up.
similar to how Weapon skill system in WoW use to work. this isnt very Sandbox, since a themepark MMO or RPG can have this same thing. You get access to all the skills. Its just like a Themepark with large level grind. "You can get everything, but just have to put in the task of leveling up to get it all"
thats not sandboxy. Themeparks do that as well...
The PvE, well what PvE content do I make? The PvE is boring and dull. I am forced to play the PvE that the developers have made and only what they made. (Which is dull and lame compared to most any other MMO's PvE content) Even Runescape had better PvE than this. I cant make my own PvE at all. Everything is Developer made, but terrible all at the same time.
not very sandbox like, since themeparks also do this.
The Aim based combat,,,, um, Tera has this as well, which is a themepark, nuff said on that,,,,
PvP is nothing but a massive guild/alliance battle for premade cities with fixed developer upgrades. Calling Guild City battles sandbox, is like calling Halaa and Wintergrasp in WoW sandbox. The same concept, just across more factions( which in this case is the guild/alliances). Not sandbox at all about this.
not sure what FFA has to do with being sandbox, since themepark MMO aslo have this....
again, what are the Sandbox elements?
Exploration? Yeah cause you cant explore in a themepark MMO,,,,, isnt this what GW2 been getting all the good news about, was its exploration options? not very sandbox like....
again,,, what was the sandbox elements in Darkfall 1?
I look at Wurm Online, I look back at Darkfall 1.....
look back at Wurm Online, look back at Darkfall 1, still not seeing the sandbox in this.
Look at WoW/Rift/AoC/Warhammer/GW2/Vanguard, than look back at Darkfall1. Oh now I see a connection....
Darkfall 1 is an open ended endgame themepark.
You progress, and once you hit endgame, you do whatever.
Sandbox is all about player made content. Which you have none in Darkfall at all.
Again look at Wurm Online and come back to Darkfall1 with that same statement that its a Sandbox... lol
Your argument that "themeparks do that as well" is a complete joke.
Guess what: Minecraft now has experience and WoW no longer has Weapon skill levels
No player made content? What about the tournaments, the treasure hunts, the player made quests, the sieges and diplomacy, the spying, the stealing, hell, the fun hulk races?
Sieges themselves are all player generated content. You're given the freedom to build and attack cities, and players use this. Just like any sandbox.
Originally posted by DavisFlightYou are not free to go anywhere in LotRO. It is instanced, zoned, and locked out based on what quests you have.
It is only done differently but that does not make Darkfall a sandbox.
Equipment restriction or character skills are just a matter of class system. Irrelevant. Whether you have boats or not, is just a feature. Irrelevant. Your own quests is just a replacement for lack of market and economy features. Irrelevant. PVP, irrelevant.
Darkfall is no more sandbox than LOTRO is.
The only true difference is that Darkfall has an open world and skill system. Besides that, it is just a PVP arena with persistent world.
You are not free to go anywhere in LotRO. It is instanced, zoned, and locked out based on what quests you have.
It is only done differently but that does not make Darkfall a sandbox.
Equipment restriction or character skills are just a matter of class system. Irrelevant. Whether you have boats or not, is just a feature. Irrelevant. Your own quests is just a replacement for lack of market and economy features. Irrelevant. PVP, irrelevant.
Darkfall is no more sandbox than LOTRO is.
The only true difference is that Darkfall has an open world and skill system. Besides that, it is just a PVP arena with persistent world.
you're obviously confused; what you call simply features are some of the fundamental aspects of 'sandboxes'. LoTRO is not a sandbox by any stretch of the definition. it's a themepark, and a boring one at that.
I find it immensely irritating when people call sandbox games themeparks. Sure DF didnt have every feature under the sun yet in no way shape or form was it anything like a themepark.
2/10 for making me reply.
The main feature of a sandbox is player created content. DF surely do have some of that but it is rather limited.
If Skyrim is a typical sandbox as some people here say then yes it is. If you see Minecraft as the typical sandbox then it isnt.
The question is really how much player created content a game needs to have to be a sandbox?
If FFA PvP would be sandboxy then AoC would be a sandbox as well. And you could easily add full loot to that game as well, still wouldnt make it a sandbox. And we seen none instanced themeparks as well, Lineage is a good and pretty large example.
A certain percentage player created content is the only unique thing, question is just how much it needs. AoC have after all its guildcities, but they are not enough. Vanguard go a step further and is really not that far from DF even if it have a lot more quests.
Darkfall is what i refer to as a limited sandbox, not a full sandbox. Its like being given a bag of sand to do a few things with, rather than an entire sandbox.
As far as character goes, yes that is very sandbox. You can build up any skill of your choosing, wear any types of armor and weapons with no restrictions, etc.
As far as "content" such as where you go and what you do, that is pretty much all up to you (as long as you can handle the challenge of the tougher mobs, but it is not limited by level, mainly player skill). Same with things like sieges. That all revolves around the players, ad they occur when players dictate, not when a game dictates.
But the world itself is not sandbox. You have no actual impact on the world itself. Bases / holdings are static and predetermined. You cannot come up with this really cool idea for a base and then design & build it your way. It is all predetermined by the devs what you can build and where, and it basically consists of having the resources and choosing to build it, but not where and how.
Same goes for housing. You cannot build a house. You buy an already existant house.
You also dont impact other aspects of the world such as chopping down trees, terraforming etc. Nothing you do in the game actually has an effect on the world itself. You can choose how to play through what exists, but you in no way alter what exists.
Darkfall 1 barely had any sand in the box. I don't see what DF 2.0 is offering as adding much more sand. It more about the Clan warefare and control of land having much less down time system, but like DF1 AV has no proper meains to combat cheating. Cheating will ruin the balance of this game just as it did in DF 1.0. The only way DF 1.0 had a handle on cheaters is when the population fell so low it hard not to notice anybody doing it.
It was always a sandbox game, just didnt have that many sandbox features... it was not a themepark thats for sure lol..
You could do what you want, your clan could build up a city, you could own a house and much more.. sure those cities and houses where fixed but still they are sandbox features. Could have been done better yes but thats besides the point.
DF:UW will be more of the same but im happy with that..
Why are people even bothering to respond to this horse sht? As Unholy Wars nears release and over the early part of it's life cycle, we are going to see more and more numbnuts coming out of the woodwork trying to troll the place out.
Just ignore them or respond in kind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by Biskop @ GdemamiHow would you define a sandbox?
Definition would be probably difficult to put together but it can be described as clockwork.
Darkfall, just like LOTRO and many other games, offer you to all kinds of gears and cogs but they do not make a clockwork. There is a fundamental layer missing in those games that would connect all game elements together.
That is what makes the game non-linear, many options but still pursuing same goal.
Definition would be probably difficult to put together but it can be described as clockwork.
Darkfall, just like LOTRO and many other games, offer you to all kinds of gears and cogs but they do not make a clockwork. There is a fundamental layer missing in those games that would connect all game elements together.
That is what makes the game non-linear, many options but still pursuing same goal.
Neither Darkfall nor LOTRO have that.
You said exactly nothing with that.
"Not clockwork" and "missing a fundamental layer" but not naming it, still mentioning DF in the same token as LOTRO. Sure seems like strong arguments there.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
curious as to what you consider Skyrim if you had to clasify it.. it's very open ended you pretty much can do what you want or you can follow the storyline but i wouldn't say it's a sandbox or a straight themepark.. feels like an open ended themepark to me:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
which to me would fit the open-ended themepark classification:) but hybrid would work just as well.. just found it funny because how he stated it sounded like he was saying you couldn't have a themepark/sandbox hybrid
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Thank you,
Fuck Darkfall is a fucking Sandbox whole heartedly, just because it didnt have every fuckin Element of Sandbox that you wanted in it doesnt make it any less of a Sandbox.
You can also build big ships and stuff?
Doesn't sound very wow like to me.
Sandbox uo, eve, perpetuum
Hybrid swg / ac
Not sure where DF falls, hybrid it sandbox though
P.s. open ended themepark is daoc definetly, gw2 maybe, EQ maybe.
I'm not sure most theme parks are themeparks any more anyway. Most of them once you level turn into god awful lobby games / cooprpg like gw1 - e.g. swtor, lotro, Aoc, wow, tsw,+ rift & aion sorta
Didn't you call Skyrim a themepark? Pretty sure you did.
Game will be as much a sandbox as the current DF, which is to say, not much of one.
You are not free to go anywhere in LotRO. It is instanced, zoned, and locked out based on what quests you have.
You cannot use every item and armor in LotRO.
You cannot go out fishing/treasure hunting in LotRO, as it has no boats. You can fish on the shore, but that's about it.
You cannot create your own quests in LotRO.
You cannot attack anyone you want in LotRO.
You cannot use any skill you want in LotRO.
In LotRO you have a linear class, a linear quest progression, a linear zone progression, a linear raid progression, the game has very hard coded rules on what you can do and when you can do them.
Darkfall is not the deepest sandbox, but it is indeed a sandbox.
i see what you did there
Darkfall is my defenition of a real sandbox. can't really explain why... but i defenatly think its the best FFA pvp full loot game out there, the sheer feeling you get while playing the game as opposed to other liner theme park mmos really makes you understand that nothing is safe, and that good people is what my idea of sandbox is all about.
I'm confused, Darthraiden. First, weren't you one of DF's biggest supporters for a very long time? Strange to see you on the other side of the fence all of a sudden.
Second, how can you quote that entire interview excerpt you include and then still come out saying "See? They're making it more themepark like"? Did you even read the entire thing you quoted, or are you only focusing on the parts that support your argument? Are you just ignoring it? That's a serious question, because I can't fathom how you take all they describe and still get "more themepark" from it. Are you being sarcastic and I'm just totally missing it?
As for making the world smaller being a bad thing... I think it's a good thing. You could reduce Agon's overall size by 1/3 and it would still be a massive world with tons to explore. The thing is, in my opinion, DF's landmass was one of its problems in current DF because the distances are so great that it really separates people. A MMORPG that relies on community interaction (be it for PvP or for trade, or what-have-you) really benefits from people being able to meet up and do things without having to first travel for up to an hour or more. There's a point where "tons of landmass to explore" becomes a hindrance rather than a benefit.
If DF had managed to bring in tons of players where every area was healthily populated, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But that wasn't the case. You could run for an hour in that game and not see another soul.
Your argument that "themeparks do that as well" is a complete joke.
Guess what: Minecraft now has experience and WoW no longer has Weapon skill levels
Hmm..still not sure if you are trolling or not
No player made content? What about the tournaments, the treasure hunts, the player made quests, the sieges and diplomacy, the spying, the stealing, hell, the fun hulk races?
Sieges themselves are all player generated content. You're given the freedom to build and attack cities, and players use this. Just like any sandbox.
It is only done differently but that does not make Darkfall a sandbox.
Equipment restriction or character skills are just a matter of class system. Irrelevant.
Whether you have boats or not, is just a feature. Irrelevant.
Your own quests is just a replacement for lack of market and economy features. Irrelevant.
PVP, irrelevant.
Darkfall is no more sandbox than LOTRO is.
The only true difference is that Darkfall has an open world and skill system. Besides that, it is just a PVP arena with persistent world.
How would you define a sandbox?
you're obviously confused; what you call simply features are some of the fundamental aspects of 'sandboxes'. LoTRO is not a sandbox by any stretch of the definition. it's a themepark, and a boring one at that.
The main feature of a sandbox is player created content. DF surely do have some of that but it is rather limited.
If Skyrim is a typical sandbox as some people here say then yes it is. If you see Minecraft as the typical sandbox then it isnt.
The question is really how much player created content a game needs to have to be a sandbox?
If FFA PvP would be sandboxy then AoC would be a sandbox as well. And you could easily add full loot to that game as well, still wouldnt make it a sandbox. And we seen none instanced themeparks as well, Lineage is a good and pretty large example.
A certain percentage player created content is the only unique thing, question is just how much it needs. AoC have after all its guildcities, but they are not enough. Vanguard go a step further and is really not that far from DF even if it have a lot more quests.
Darkfall is what i refer to as a limited sandbox, not a full sandbox. Its like being given a bag of sand to do a few things with, rather than an entire sandbox.
As far as character goes, yes that is very sandbox. You can build up any skill of your choosing, wear any types of armor and weapons with no restrictions, etc.
As far as "content" such as where you go and what you do, that is pretty much all up to you (as long as you can handle the challenge of the tougher mobs, but it is not limited by level, mainly player skill). Same with things like sieges. That all revolves around the players, ad they occur when players dictate, not when a game dictates.
But the world itself is not sandbox. You have no actual impact on the world itself. Bases / holdings are static and predetermined. You cannot come up with this really cool idea for a base and then design & build it your way. It is all predetermined by the devs what you can build and where, and it basically consists of having the resources and choosing to build it, but not where and how.
Same goes for housing. You cannot build a house. You buy an already existant house.
You also dont impact other aspects of the world such as chopping down trees, terraforming etc. Nothing you do in the game actually has an effect on the world itself. You can choose how to play through what exists, but you in no way alter what exists.
It was always a sandbox game, just didnt have that many sandbox features... it was not a themepark thats for sure lol..
You could do what you want, your clan could build up a city, you could own a house and much more.. sure those cities and houses where fixed but still they are sandbox features. Could have been done better yes but thats besides the point.
DF:UW will be more of the same but im happy with that..
"Darkfall is just the same as LOTRO or WOW".
"Darkfall is a pvp arena game".
Why are people even bothering to respond to this horse sht? As Unholy Wars nears release and over the early part of it's life cycle, we are going to see more and more numbnuts coming out of the woodwork trying to troll the place out.
Just ignore them or respond in kind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Definition would be probably difficult to put together but it can be described as clockwork.
Darkfall, just like LOTRO and many other games, offer you to all kinds of gears and cogs but they do not make a clockwork. There is a fundamental layer missing in those games that would connect all game elements together.
That is what makes the game non-linear, many options but still pursuing same goal.
Neither Darkfall nor LOTRO have that.
You said exactly nothing with that.
"Not clockwork" and "missing a fundamental layer" but not naming it, still mentioning DF in the same token as LOTRO. Sure seems like strong arguments there.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."