Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sick and tired of solo-centric rubbish, where have all the REAL MMOs gone?

2456

Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,063
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    No, it's not bad design, just design you don't care for.

    I like MMO's with heavy interdependency mechanics built into them, not only for combat but for other activities such as crafting.

    You don't, and while it's clear your preferences are in the majority, doesn't mean they are any better than mine.

    But this isn't the solo vs grouping thread so I don't want to get it shut down by carrying on that debate here.

    As pointed out by others, this interdependent game design seems to have vanished for good, but who knows, perhaps one of the indy titles out there like Repopulation might surprise us all.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • lifeordinarylifeordinary Member Posts: 646
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    No, it's not bad design, just design you don't care for.

    I like MMO's with heavy interdependency mechanics built into them, not only for combat but for other activities such as crafting.

    You don't, and while it's clear your preferences are in the majority, doesn't mean they are any better than mine.

    But this isn't the solo vs grouping thread so I don't want to get it shut down by carrying on that debate here.

    As pointed out by others, this interdependent game design seems to have vanished for good, but who knows, perhaps one of the indy titles out there like Repopulation might surprise us all.

     

    I used to care for it a lot actually. Have you played FFXI? yeah it was my all time favorite forced grouping MMO.

    But now times have changed for me. I log in and off several times a day. I run business from home and i can not deal with MMOS which force you into grouping. Solo option allows a lot of casual players like me to play on their own terms.

    A good MMO is one which gives you more choices / options  and not take it away. So yes it is a bad design.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    Alas, I fear, this. :(

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    hope not, dont mind wandering around in a big online city, but to be FORCED to group up in order to get something done at all? rather not.

    MMO's where you cant even do 1 simple  mission without getting a cookie cutter group together......aarrhh.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    Sorry, I can't agree here. People NEED obstacles to overcome. Some solo content, ok. But people need a bit a kick in the butt and forced to stuff for their own good, like grouping.

     

    "The problem with freedom is, that people make the wrong choices."

    - Odo, Deep Space 9

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary Member Posts: 646
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

     

     

    Originally posted by Elikal
     

    "The problem with freedom is, that people make the wrong choices."

    - Odo, Deep Space 9

     

     

    Yeah so your solution is to take the freedom away? nice way of thinking there. 

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

     

    The idea to make grouping voluntary is as absurd as making paying taxes voluntary.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite Member Posts: 879
    Not a fan of forced grouping. A proportional dose of group-oriented content though is welcome.
  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

     

     

    Originally posted by Elikal
     

    "The problem with freedom is, that people make the wrong choices."

    - Odo, Deep Space 9

     

     

    Yeah so your solution is to take the freedom away? nice way of thinking there. 

    Well, YOU take people freedom away just the same, only reverse, by enforcing solo. See my post above why.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • KalafaxKalafax Member UncommonPosts: 601
    Just to be clear, not many of the old school MMOs had forced grouping of any sort, just because todays themepark games are pieces of crap doesnt mean its because things can be solo'd, really tired of the MMOers thinking that you need to group up for games because its an MMO, thats a complete Themepark state of mind.

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary Member Posts: 646
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

    Lets chalk it up to personal experince shall we? i have been grouping up a lot in GW2 and TSW when i can afford the committment and solo when i can't. I have never found anyone not willign to group up only because it can be soloed. Well theer are lot of things that can be soloed but at the same time lot of things you can not. 

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer Member Posts: 415

    IMO, it depends on how this "forced grouping" is handle.

    For example, a hardcore survival pve mmo where you can kill most enemies on your own but will run out of ammo, potions, etc faster and, of course, will have nobody to help you. Grouping isn't "mandatory" but a huge boost.

    Having to wait around 1 hour for another guy with another role to fill the party for half an hour of fun, just no.

    I DO want player interdependency, but there's a limit to everything. It will always depend on how the game structures it's content.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

    Lets chalk it up to personal experince shall we? i have been grouping up a lot in GW2 and TSW when i can afford the committment and solo when i can't. I have never found anyone not willign to group up only because it can be soloed. Well theer are lot of things that can be soloed but at the same time lot of things you can not. 

    Well, lucky you. *shrug*

    Generally, with each new MMO I felt more alone. I recall how easy it was to meet new people in the old MMOs, because you NEEDED help. Necessity makes allies. If humans were totally self-reliant in RL, I guess they would simply die out, because way too few people are not egocentric. *shrug* Or you bring in RL friends, but none of mine plays MMOs, anbd guilds these days (sorry) are TEH SUXXOR.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    MMOs have never been solo-centric. They've only become more solo-friendly. Anyone who says they're solo-centric is a drama queen. And "real MMOs" only exist in your head.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu Member Posts: 336

    Vanguard? Oh, you did not play it? Why?

    The thing that I do not understand is, why there are still some people complaining about today's MMOs, because they are to easy, solo-friendly and casual. There are and always have beed MMOs which try to aim a more hard-core and sandbox oriented community. Just play those games a shut up!

     

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    But but...they all force me to get 'experience' and gear and stuff. 

    Beware of generalization.

    Ummm nowdays MMOS give you option to either solo or form groups for loot and experince. So no i m not forced into getting XP if that is how you feel it would be better to stop playing games all together. Because experince gain is basis of progression for MMOS.

    Yes, that was rather the point.

    You see, it all depends on how much you're willing to expand the definition of that word "forced".

    Clearly, no guns are ever pointed at gamers heads.  Just as clearly, all MMO activities are voluntary, to varying levels.  Thats, you know, part of the game.

    The only power anyone has in situations like these is the ability to cast a wallet vote.  That's the extent that "forced" ever forces anybody, forced to seek a new title to play.

    But rhetoric, apparently, is powerful enough to convince some users to cast that vote.  Sometimes, as SOE found out, a rather significant number of somebodies.

    You can't prove that you were right, or wrong, regardless of which way you chose to vote in 2004-05.

    But the market can prove, to investors, that one choice "forces" a pretty significant number of players to leave.

    No game thus far has managed to prove to investors that the inverse is also true.  (Proving that would involve starting with a non-interactive game, adding some "forced" grouping, and seeing a significant increase in subs...)

    Until one does, it remains only an old-timer attractive theory.

    Less stringent evidence?  A "forced" grouping game opening to a bigger audience that a "solo" game?  That would probably serve to convince the bean-counters that the theory has some actual substance (more than lots of yackyack).

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

    Lets chalk it up to personal experince shall we? i have been grouping up a lot in GW2 and TSW when i can afford the committment and solo when i can't. I have never found anyone not willign to group up only because it can be soloed. Well theer are lot of things that can be soloed but at the same time lot of things you can not. 

    Well, lucky you. *shrug*

    Generally, with each new MMO I felt more alone. I recall how easy it was to meet new people in the old MMOs, because you NEEDED help. Necessity makes allies. If humans were totally self-reliant in RL, I guess they would simply die out, because way too few people are not egocentric. *shrug* Or you bring in RL friends, but none of mine plays MMOs, anbd guilds these days (sorry) are TEH SUXXOR.

    Most MMO's that were released in the last couple of years, didnt really have any kind of real social aspects, i wouldnt say they were 'solo orientated' but they certainly didnt give people a reason to play together, maybe it is just pandering to the solo crowd, but i think its also one of the primary reasons why there hasnt been a game released in the last few years that has managed to achieve any kind of player retention, they play, they consume all the solo content thats available, and they move on, games don't really seem to be designed with longevity in mind, its do all the content and then wait for the next expac, theres no player interdependance anymore, the only games that have any kind of real community, and by that i mean people you see regularly rather than just random strangers you can chat to occasionally, are pretty much in the past, SWG certainly had a great player community, as does Eve, but i can't think of any game offhand that encourages players to interract exact on a very basic and very temporary for that matter, basis. Forced grouping though, is not the same thing as having a game that encourages players to work together even if its not combat related. image

  • YinlorYinlor Member Posts: 55
     
     
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

     

    The idea to make grouping voluntary is as absurd as making paying taxes voluntary.


    Couldn't have put it better myself, this is the main problem I have been trying to get across.

    When I sat around in WoW and similar games, every time I asked for grouping I just get scornful remarks about how I can solo

    I remember in the TERA beta, I had gotten to the end of the tutorial island and was given a group quest, which greatly excited me, until I asked in the chat channel for a party only to be greeted by "no point, you can solo that"

    Providing an option in fact doesn't provide an option at all, it encourages solo play, unless you greatly hinder the solo experience to almost completely and utterly force grouping, the general playerbase will ALWAYS solo because it's easier.

    I empaphise with those who have busy schedules to adhere to, I have been in that situation myself many-a-time for periods of my life, which is why I'm not calling for group-oriented MMOs to become the norm, but for them to simply EXIST once again. Let the solo players play their easy, pointless crap games that may as well be single-player, I'm sick and tired of being forced to be part of that experience as well because nobody will make a game that's any different or more challenging.

     
  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    I think MMO'ers are socially defective by default. So, providing them with every opertunity to be cooperative with each other in game is halariously ironic.

    image

  • muffins89muffins89 Member UncommonPosts: 1,585
    when mmo's were new,  so was socializing on the internet with people from all over the world.  those days are gone.  that epic feeling of omg im playing a game and talking to someone who's also playing only they are 3000 miles from me is gone.  mmo's are less social because of technological advances.  people dont play mmo's as part of their social agendas anymore.  they have facebook,  google +,  youtube,  etc.  for that.  mmo's are less social because people have other ways to connect with people.  a large percentage of people are playing these games for entertainment,  not for socialization.  people want to log in,  run a dungeon,  pvp,  quest,  etc.  and log out.  they are not there to socialize.  they have facebook for that.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,063
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Nope, those days are pretty much gone, doubtful we'll ever see a title with forced grouping at it's core again.

    And thank GOD for that. Any game that forces you into any activity is bad design.

    most new mmo's forcing us to play solo,too ,with asocial peoples

    Actually most new MMOS gives you a choice. Either solo or form parites to get better xp and loot. GW2 and TSW are perfect example where you can solo but grouping has more rewards.

    What is wrong with having more options in terms of playing a game?

    No they don't. Not in real.

    You know what happens when I ask in a chat channel, whether someone wants so accompany me in my soloable quests?

    "They can be done alone." from 100 people.

    Allowing soloing, is NOT more options, because 99.9% WILL solo what they CAN solo, and if you seek company, good riddance, because you won't find any. Humans are basically seeking the path of the least resistance, and that is soloing. They will solo, even if they enjoy grouping more, because of the flaws of human nature.

    So no, it is NOT more options, it de facto enforces soloing.

     

    The idea to make grouping voluntary is as absurd as making paying taxes voluntary.

    OK, quoting that one for awhile, nice work.  image

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,063
    Originally posted by Mahavishnu

    Vanguard? Oh, you did not play it? Why?

    The thing that I do not understand is, why there are still some people complaining about today's MMOs, because they are to easy, solo-friendly and casual. There are and always have beed MMOs which try to aim a more hard-core and sandbox oriented community. Just play those games a shut up!

     

    Cmon now, while Vanguard does strongly encourage grouping, it lacks strong tools and a solid player base to actually make grouping practical.  (nor really rewarding either)

    The title has a lot wrong with it outside of this that keeps people from playing it.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035

    maybe its time to take a different look at it.

    make players not just the agressors but also the defenders.

    if theres a legion of orks at the gate, you will team up..or lose your city.

     

  • AZHokie54AZHokie54 Member UncommonPosts: 295
    Originally posted by rungard

    maybe its time to take a different look at it.

    make players not just the agressors but also the defenders.

    if theres a legion of orks at the gate, you will team up..or lose your city.

     

    Original Rift, but typical MMO player these days whined about it.

Sign In or Register to comment.