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If a real gamer made a complete concept from start to finish, would it possible get chance of being

mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

Because I am prepared to do just that, from theory, to concept, to mechanics, to interface design, to story, to lore, to create the most amazing MMORPG ever on paper.

Would people be interested in following this conceptualization, let's say both here and on Youtube?

Regards,
Mike Cackle

My YouTube Channel

«13456

Comments

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Most of these indie companies are just that. Unfortunately it takes a lot of capital to really do anything all that great. If y have money or investors that you can pitch it to then go for it. 
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,057
    The best games change and hopefully improve as they are developed based on player feedback.  Your idea almost certainly would not result in a good game. 
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Developers are real gamers too.
  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Most of these indie companies are just that. Unfortunately it takes a lot of capital to really do anything all that great. If y have money or investors that you can pitch it to then go for it. 

    Well, I myself have no interest in getting the game truly made as I know I won't have the funding or graphical expertise to get it done.. I am more intersted in a fanbase following the concept as it grows and debate my conceptualization. The idea is to build awareness to developers to understand the things needed to succeed based on a true gamers experience. Which is knowledge and understanding of what fun is gaming is truly about.

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    The best games change and hopefully improve as they are developed based on player feedback.  Your idea almost certainly would not result in a good game. 

    [mod edit]. Contradictive, and I disagree. Solid concepts created before actuall design don't need to change. Sold concepts have rasons why to be a certain way.. Sadly you are being fooled by companies coming out with concepts based on IP and doing no groundwork in their games. Thus have to change because they were not thought out completely.

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    The problem is that everyone and his neighbor's dog has ideas for games.  Many people have good ideas, even.  What's scarce is people who can implement the ideas and actually make the game work.  If someone wanted to create an MMORPG, he probably has ideas of his own that he likes better than yours.  That's why they're his ideas.  Why would he want to ditch that and create an MMORPG based on your ideas?  Unless, of course, you're the one actually developing the game.
  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    The problem is that everyone and his neighbor's dog has ideas for games.  Many people have good ideas, even.  What's scarce is people who can implement the ideas and actually make the game work.  If someone wanted to create an MMORPG, he probably has ideas of his own that he likes better than yours.  That's why they're his ideas.  Why would he want to ditch that and create an MMORPG based on your ideas?  Unless, of course, you're the one actually developing the game.

    I am not talking about an spewing out ideas here, im talking about the entire game conceptualized on paper, from summary to goals, to entire system development, including itemization, inventory, skills, lore, bestiary,  and everything you can possibly think of, in what could take years to achieve.

    Everyone talks about what his or her dream game would be like... I want to take that idea to the level light years beyond those basic thoughts, so I was asking if there would be those to listen and perhaps support, otherwise there is no sense in me to start recording :D

     

     

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,057
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    The best games change and hopefully improve as they are developed based on player feedback.  Your idea almost certainly would not result in a good game. 

    Contradictive, and I disagree. Solid concepts created before actuall design don't need to change. Sold concepts have rasons why to be a certain way.. Sadly you are being fooled by companies coming out with concepts based on IP and doing no groundwork in their games. Thus have to change because they were not thought out completely.

    You sound clueless and very naive about modern game development.

     

    If you want someone to make a game based on your design, start small and work for others in the industry.  Show people you are competent and you'll get bigger games to work on and someday maybe you can make your own.

     

    Otherwise you need to be able to suppport yourself as you design your own game from scratch with no funding.

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    The best games change and hopefully improve as they are developed based on player feedback.  Your idea almost certainly would not result in a good game. 

    Sadly, That sounds like the quote of a loser. Contradictive, and I disagree. Solid concepts created before actuall design don't need to change. Sold concepts have rasons why to be a certain way.. Sadly you are being fooled by companies coming out with concepts based on IP and doing no groundwork in their games. Thus have to change because they were not thought out completely.

    You sound clueless and very naive about modern game development.

     

    If you want someone to make a game based on your design, start small and working for others in the industry.  Show people you are competent and you'll get bigger games to work on and someday maybe you can make your own.

     

    Otherwise you need to be able to suppport yourself as you design your own game from scratch with no funding.

    Nowhere near clueless, your just missing the point, nothing unusual on a gamer forum :D

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    The best games change and hopefully improve as they are developed based on player feedback.  Your idea almost certainly would not result in a good game. 

    Sadly, That sounds like the quote of a loser. Contradictive, and I disagree. Solid concepts created before actuall design don't need to change. Sold concepts have rasons why to be a certain way.. Sadly you are being fooled by companies coming out with concepts based on IP and doing no groundwork in their games. Thus have to change because they were not thought out completely.

    You sound clueless and very naive about modern game development.

     

    If you want someone to make a game based on your design, start small and working for others in the industry.  Show people you are competent and you'll get bigger games to work on and someday maybe you can make your own.

     

    Otherwise you need to be able to suppport yourself as you design your own game from scratch with no funding.

    Nowhere near clueless, your just missing the point, nothing unusual on a gamer forum :D

    My topic title may have missed the mark I was aiming for, but atlas, was nothing but a setup...

    As I am already well started with the concept :D

    Let the fun begin...

    Codename Cackle

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151

    My goal here along with creating a MMORPG completely, will be a nice framework for those looking HOW TO CREATE A MMORPG. Its complex, more than you can possibly imagine, one thought in the future can change everything done in the past... A framework of how this and that works shown in public for the public for anyone to consume and utilize, would be an amazing asset to alleviate newcomer mistakes.. And I am going to try and make this happen.

    Prepare yourselfs, for "Codename Cackle" An upcoming podcast of the complete conceptulization of a MMORPG

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    You will find that almost everything changes between the idea conception to implementation.  Everything.  Novels, paintings, design documents, games, applications, research papers... 

    There is very very little that actually remains the same by the end of the project as the idea you first put forward.  The basics may be the same and the general idea may be the same but the specifics are often very very different.  You will find that one system doesn't work well or counters another.  You will find that there are holes in your plan that need to be filled up but conflict with another idea.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_221/6582-Why-Your-Game-Idea-Sucks

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/128569/Opinion_No_One_Cares_About_Your_Cool_Game_Idea.php

     

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499

    If you're really capable of specifying everything in complete detail, then you're capable of making a game.  After all, what is coding a game apart from specifying exactly how everything needs to work?  There is a little bit of work in converting that to a language that computers can understand (though high level languages will do most of the work for you here) and in optimizing things for good performance.  But it's mostly about specifying how everything needs to work in complete detail.

    Coding a game forces you to fill in the details in ways that writing a document lets you gloss over.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by mikecackle

    I am not talking about an spewing out ideas here, im talking about the entire game conceptualized on paper, from summary to goals, to entire system development, including itemization, inventory, skills, lore, bestiary,  and everything you can possibly think of, in what could take years to achieve.

    Everyone talks about what his or her dream game would be like... I want to take that idea to the level light years beyond those basic thoughts, so I was asking if there would be those to listen and perhaps support, otherwise there is no sense in me to start recording :D

    That's not light years beyond. It's a small step in the right direction. We can tell you that there's a huge difference between your idea on paper and a professional dev's idea on paper. We can tell you there's a massive difference between writing it on paper and making it actually work in a game environment. The light years leap is making it work and making it FUN, too.

    You're not going to believe it, though.

     

    Plumbers, engineers, interior decorators... you could do their jobs...easy! After all, you've more than likely drawn a detailed sink once, right?

     

    "everything you can possibly think of"

    Everything you can possibly think of. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Can you post photos of your tabletop walkthroughs of the gameplay or the results of those tests?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    You will find that almost everything changes between the idea conception to implementation.  Everything.  Novels, paintings, design documents, games, applications, research papers... 

    There is very very little that actually remains the same by the end of the project as the idea you first put forward.  The basics may be the same and the general idea may be the same but the specifics are often very very different.  You will find that one system doesn't work well or counters another.  You will find that there are holes in your plan that need to be filled up but conflict with another idea.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_221/6582-Why-Your-Game-Idea-Sucks

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/128569/Opinion_No_One_Cares_About_Your_Cool_Game_Idea.php

     

    I can say that the hardest thing I am struggling with is in my design is taking my core gameplay idea's and merging them into the lore / story line.

    It is very amazing at how simple and basic ideas just become so very complex to implement when you say, "okay there are these races, this is going on" but the gameplay you conceptualize does not always work out to support your exact idea in your head with the lore and politics that need to bring the communities inside together for conflict.

    All these struggles will be part of the podcasts and basic theory discussions to coninue. I am strong into the theory of why I am doing this and why THIS HAS TO BE THIS WAY, and somtimes you have to step backwards. I have re-written my game now 55 times at least by now. Its frustrating but if you wish to achieve greatness, attention to detail is a must and sacrifices must be made. It is those that can direct the proper choices and changes that become great game developers. Because it is very easy to lose focus and commitment as time is lost, and projects area bigger than a single entity...

    From these experience others will gain the groundwork of the challenges and obstacles to overcome.

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Member CommonPosts: 1,122

    I had an idea once.  It's called the "Jump to Conclusions Mat".  I could have made millions :(  Then some stupid movie stole my idea and made fun of it.  Anyhoo

    Best of luck to you Mike!  Ideas are always where great games begin.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499

    A lot of the details that need to be filled in don't become obvious until you have a game working with a lot of features already implemented.  Once you have the game sitting there, it's completely obvious that you have some major components that are completely missing, but you didn't realize it while writing a document.

    There are also a lot of things that on paper, look like they should work flawlessly.  But once you implement them, it's obvious that they're completely broken.  It's unlikely that you'll ever detect that while the ideas are just on paper, but they could force enormous redesigns of large swaths of content once you try to implement them.

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489

    You get a proper manifesto done.

    Get some tech specs, concept art, and story boarding done.

    Yeah. It's actually not that hard to put your work in front of a publisher.

    There's a lot of space in between those lines for the reality of it all, but at it's most base it can happen. Just have to put real effort in to it and understand that networking is key.

    Networking with people that is, not servers.

    a yo ho ho

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    A lot of the details that need to be filled in don't become obvious until you have a game working with a lot of features already implemented.  Once you have the game sitting there, it's completely obvious that you have some major components that are completely missing, but you didn't realize it while writing a document.

    There are also a lot of things that on paper, look like they should work flawlessly.  But once you implement them, it's obvious that they're completely broken.  It's unlikely that you'll ever detect that while the ideas are just on paper, but they could force enormous redesigns of large swaths of content once you try to implement them.

    Quizzical has some great advice there, Mike.

    You've got everything written out, so now it's time to start trying out what you've created. GameMaker is a great free tool for testing out ideas. You could even raid your board games for dice and pieces to start testing it out that way. Have other people playtest the various systems in your game. See what they are doing and find out WHY they are doing it. How you may perceive the mechanics being used could be radically different from how others actually use them.

    You'll find you have a ton of refining to do at that level. After that, it's getting the various elements to work together in the same enviroment. Test, change, refine.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489

    I want to offer a fast track to this study tho:

    Create an IP elsewhere first.

    Novel, cartoon, comic book, pen & paper game that appeals and resonates with the core gaming community. Then sell the IP to become a MMO. 

    IP MMOs are all over the flippin' place.

    a yo ho ho

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by mikecackle

    Everyone talks about what his or her dream game would be like... I want to take that idea to the level light years beyond those basic thoughts, so I was asking if there would be those to listen and perhaps support, otherwise there is no sense in me to start recording :D

    You sound like you'd be unwilling to accept any answer but "yes".

    When you're creating for a paycheck, that's an extremely bad habit.

    How do you react to editors?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • mikecacklemikecackle Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    A lot of the details that need to be filled in don't become obvious until you have a game working with a lot of features already implemented.  Once you have the game sitting there, it's completely obvious that you have some major components that are completely missing, but you didn't realize it while writing a document.

    There are also a lot of things that on paper, look like they should work flawlessly.  But once you implement them, it's obvious that they're completely broken.  It's unlikely that you'll ever detect that while the ideas are just on paper, but they could force enormous redesigns of large swaths of content once you try to implement them.

    Quizzical has some great advice there, Mike.

    You've got everything written out, so now it's time to start trying out what you've created. GameMaker is a great free tool for testing out ideas. You could even raid your board games for dice and pieces to start testing it out that way. Have other people playtest the various systems in your game. See what they are doing and find out WHY they are doing it. How you may perceive the mechanics being used could be radically different from how others actually use them.

    You'll find you have a ton of refining to do at that level. After that, it's getting the various elements to work together in the same enviroment. Test, change, refine.

     

    Yeah, understood. I have 15 years of data programming experience, in which I always believed in a more procedural base approach of building projects unlike todays more object orientated rail based systems. It leads to a modular approach in development that provides a very stable backbone. Things take a bit longer to develop this way but are so much worth it and mistakes don't happen and you never code yourself into a corner. (things are done, tested and completed, and moved to the next problem) So that has helped tons with the initial design of the game.

    And no I have not everthing written out yet :D Its a major task with tons yet to do, but i have hundreds of hours of theory and design completed, as well as lore and other stuff...

    Regards,
    Mike Cackle

    My YouTube Channel

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Member Posts: 127

    No, not at all. It's all about the Benjamins and you just need to be a big name or some big funds.

     

    After that you can do anything you want.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Ooh yay, it's time for Death by Powerpoint!

    /popcorn  Ready!  Roll film!

    er...wait...no film? Just a cover slide?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by mikecackle
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    A lot of the details that need to be filled in don't become obvious until you have a game working with a lot of features already implemented.  Once you have the game sitting there, it's completely obvious that you have some major components that are completely missing, but you didn't realize it while writing a document.

    There are also a lot of things that on paper, look like they should work flawlessly.  But once you implement them, it's obvious that they're completely broken.  It's unlikely that you'll ever detect that while the ideas are just on paper, but they could force enormous redesigns of large swaths of content once you try to implement them.

    Quizzical has some great advice there, Mike.

    You've got everything written out, so now it's time to start trying out what you've created. GameMaker is a great free tool for testing out ideas. You could even raid your board games for dice and pieces to start testing it out that way. Have other people playtest the various systems in your game. See what they are doing and find out WHY they are doing it. How you may perceive the mechanics being used could be radically different from how others actually use them.

    You'll find you have a ton of refining to do at that level. After that, it's getting the various elements to work together in the same enviroment. Test, change, refine.

     

    Yeah, understood. I have 15 years of data programming experience, in which I always believed in a more procedural base approach of building projects unlike todays more object orientated rail based systems. It leads to a modular approach in development that provides a very stable backbone. Things take a bit longer to develop this way but are so much worth it and mistakes don't happen and you never code yourself into a corner. (things are done, tested and completed, and moved to the next problem) So that has helped tons with the initial design of the game.

    And no I have not everthing written out yet :D Its a major task with tons yet to do, but i have hundreds of hours of theory and design completed, as well as lore and other stuff...

    Wait... 15 years as a data programmer. So you're an adult?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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