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Games getting soft?
sargon5
Member Posts: 10
Anyone else feel like MMORPGs are too concerned with carebears? I've found that each generation of games gets weaker and weaker in regards to PVP. I miss games like M59 where you could kill people and they would feel it. They would beg you for their items back, they would hate you for years. It gave the PVP meaning. The games that come out now are made for girls that don't like to lose their pretty pixels. When I PVP I want to have something on the line, not just a few gold, not just a 30 second want. I want hours of grind on the line if I lose. I want my items to be taken from me. I want to feel it. I want the thrill of totally screwing up someone's day and beating my enemies right off the game. I want people to know if they get on my bad side there are consequences. Not just oh boy, that guy doesn't like me, well even if I die, so what, he doesn't get anything and I don't lose anything. We need at least some new servers for people who like to grief and mess up people's days like myself.
Love you all,
Sargon
Comments
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Here's the thing...I'll agree, but i'm also going to disagree here. I like the PvP system (mostly) that Shadowbane has set up. Fully open PvP once your off the "training island". The difference, is that you lose XP and your inventory when you die, but you don't lose what your equipped with. I like that system better...because while I want to have risk, I don't want to lose something I worked months to get and then have an unlucky death. Risk is good, but to much risk just drives people away.
That, and as much as I like open PvP...I hate griefers. Seriously, why screw somebody over that's 30 levels under you? For shits and giggles? You won't have any competition in the game if people leave because you run them off. I like open PvP (almost) as much as the next guy, but I don't like when massive level chars make it so I can't actually play to get to the real PvP.
Personally I just like realism I guess. I mean people 30 levels above you f^$% with you all the time in RL
and they take your stuff too lol.
I just always look back to UO year one and ask myself why was it that I always played with my heart in my mouth ? Why was that the most exciting and exhausting gaming I have ever done ? The answer is because everything was on the line everytime you left town. You just cant beat that level of play for creating a genuine sense of involvement. Unfortunately greifers are part of that equation...
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Personally I just like realism I guess. I mean people 30 levels above you f^$% with you all the time in RL
and they take your stuff too lol.
I just always look back to UO year one and ask myself why was it that I always played with my heart in my mouth ? Why was that the most exciting and exhausting gaming I have ever done ? The answer is because everything was on the line everytime you left town. You just cant beat that level of play for creating a genuine sense of involvement. Unfortunately greifers are part of that equation...
Thing is, I understand the occasional griefer. What kills me is that, at least nowadays, you CANT leave town without being surrounded by griefers. They just camp and wait for you to come out, and there's nothing you can do about it, ever. Open PvP is fine, but without any form of control at all, it can get fairly out of hand. EVE seemed to have the right idea...the more you kill characters, the more bounty ended up on your head, and everybody knew when you entered a sector. It's realistic to :P You kill people, you get in trouble with the law.
Personally I just like realism I guess. I mean people 30 levels above you f^$% with you all the time in RL
and they take your stuff too lol.
I just always look back to UO year one and ask myself why was it that I always played with my heart in my mouth ? Why was that the most exciting and exhausting gaming I have ever done ? The answer is because everything was on the line everytime you left town. You just cant beat that level of play for creating a genuine sense of involvement. Unfortunately greifers are part of that equation...
Thing is, I understand the occasional griefer. What kills me is that, at least nowadays, you CANT leave town without being surrounded by griefers. They just camp and wait for you to come out, and there's nothing you can do about it, ever. Open PvP is fine, but without any form of control at all, it can get fairly out of hand. EVE seemed to have the right idea...the more you kill characters, the more bounty ended up on your head, and everybody knew when you entered a sector. It's realistic to :P You kill people, you get in trouble with the law.
Yes I am all in favour of some sort of consequences.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Funny, I was just about to raise a topic on the opposite opinion.
If you have a look at the poll on this site the numbers run approx 50/50 on those who like PvP and those who don't, so who you gonna please. I think a solution like WoWs with different servers for different playstyles is the best overall.
Plus, I just don't see what joy people get from killing a player that is more than 1 or 2 levels below them, no accomplishment there.
PS. I'm a huge fan of that WoW video where that lvl 60 rogue (with crappy skill, mind you) sneak attacks a lvl 54 hunter (sitting eating with no pet out) and the hunter runs, but gradually kills him by jump turning and firing his gun repeatedly while the rogue struggles to catch him...ahahah...beautiful and served the dang sneaky wussy rogue right! If that's what "PvP" is...sneaking up on someone and stabbing them in the back...then I think the whole thing blows.
its exactly because that is an unpopular opinion that the number of games where you can pvp any where any time and lose our items for reckless killing are going down every day.
In principle, I agree with the original poster. As people pointed out, reality falls short.
What happens in open PvP is it really boils down to survival of the fittest. In these games, fittest often means whoever levels up first and invests time to build/join a guild and stake his claim. These hardcore players then make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to compete because they don't want to lose their superior position.
Yes, that's real life, but it can be a hellish gaming experience for the less than fit and newer players. It is very much the case that the small percentage of players at the top rule and have fun, while the majority of players are forced to endure quite a number of bad experiences in order to reach the top.
One problem is that unlike real life, there is a very limited number of activities to do ingame. The hardcore players play so many hours that many end up doing stupid griefing acts just because they are bored.
Yes, I really miss the excitement and adrenaline from a good pvp fight that has consequences. BUT I don't miss stupid griefers and all the time wasted.
It's a thin line and most mmorpg's can't handle it, so they take the safe route and go carebear.
Actually, it's more carbearish to go PvP only in games that rely entirely on stats and equipment and require not one ounce of skill on the part of the player. Who's got more game, a the world champion of Age of Mythology or the highest level character on World of Grindage 2? 'Nuff said.
I have to agree that MMORPG's are certainly getting easier to the point of being pointless
The death penalty system and ease of leveling in WoW is pathetic to say the least.
However, a game that caters for people who need to treat other players in such a way that ....
and who ....
isn't the kind of game I would be interested in.But so what ? - there must be thousands of players out there who crave a totally open FFA style MMORPG.
I think the only reason there are so few is that the sales departments can promise vast profits from carebare style games aimed at crap players ( I'm back to WoW here folks
) but they can only guarantee a relatively small income from FFA PvP style games aimed at social missfits.
This is one of the most common debates on all MMORPG forums and I for one doubt there will ever be a game that can cater to both camps.
The closest yet is DAoC and to be honest I feel that any PvPer who can't find what they need in DAoC can only be a frustrated griefer.
Well at least this PvP vs Carebear thread is a bit more civil than the other 500. I would like PvP if the griefers didnt ruin it. If people would stay within their role and not kill indescriminantly then I'd like PvP. But it ends up being just an opportunity for some pre-teen griefer that has RL issues to ruin the game for others.
The closest thing to PvP that I like is RvR. I mean if I'm an Elf and I come across an Orc player then it makes sense for him to attack me. But it's just plain silly that if I'm an Elf and I have to be worried about getting attacked by other Elf players the minute I step outside town. That doesnt seem much like reality at all.
imho griefing is not pvp its just griefing.
if you have to ruin other people's playing time to have fun or feel good about yourself im sorry but i pitty you.
im all for open pvp and looting but there needs to be a way to prevent grieving somehow. i like the ideas darkfall has if it ever comes out, people with still be able to open pvp and loot everything but you will be hated by all the npc ran city's and it will be difficult to survive. also in that game even if you lose all your items they will be easy to get back from what i can see.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
But it's just plain silly that if I'm an Elf and I have to be worried about getting attacked by other Elf players the minute I step outside town. That doesnt seem much like reality at all.
Actually, that seems very real to me. It's human nature to look to the "other" guy being out to get you. But it's your own kind that's more likely to put a knife in your back. Why? Because they think you trust them of course. Also, in a community with even a little bit of diversity there's always some member of the "other" demographic you can pin it on. Especially if you're "kind" happens to be the majority. This is one of those uncomfortable crossovers with RL that we tend to ignore when we say "it's only a game."
The good old time ...
I'm a solo player, yet, there has been only 1 mmorpg that i played where i actually bothered to make or join a group. UO.
I see people stating that you can't leave town because of pk'ers. Well, there is a solution to that. Make a group, and kick some PK behind. No problem leaving town. Hell, going solo out of town in UO was a experience by itself... The constant fear of a PK hiding in the shadows, constantly looking around when you are attacking a monster, that a PK'er won't jump you when you are low on health. Not unlike today, where you set up your macro's to auto heal you, and let the fight go in auto mod, while you get some coffee.
Getting rushed by a PK'er ( or multi ) and surviving is a adrenaline rush by itself.
These days, mmorpgs are more like a macro program. Set up your macro, and come back to claim the spoils. I'm rather amazed to see so many developers nerve PvP, so that a bunch of people can level up in a month or 2 to the max, gain zillions of gp's, and then quit the game because they have nothing left to do.
A simple jail & punish system can prevent the world from being overrun by PK'ers, but how many mmorpgs even bother? Yea, on UO player run shards i see similar systems ( and they actually work, proving its possible ).
Even more amazing is seeing how developers claim how they are going to create a free world, no restrictions, bla bla bla during beta time ... but when push comes to shove, they all start limiting there worlds the closer they get to a release date. Hell, limiting is more easy then actually having a working system... To many beta's, and almost all the same
And i don't like it how developers trow away there ideals for more mass appeal in the end.
I do like PvP soemtimes. Taking on a player my level and overcomign them, and both being friendly the whole time and having a good laugh about it is a great experience. Now, open pvp is crashed down by griefers, those who choose to ruin another player's experience and in a good way choke off a games continued player base. Now a punishment system could work, if done well.
However, many times id rather PvE to get money and items. An RvR system is also very good, DAoC accomplished this incredibly well. WoW uses a similiar system, but it lacks the rewards and consistancy of DAoC's system. Full PvP and loot is starting to sound rather silly to me lately, its a game, meant to be fun, not a miserable experience, but it could work if parameters were set on the aformentioned PvP. Problem is, its very hard to succesfully mix PvP and PvE, but a game that can do it is bound to be succesful.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
What if you win? Surely then the reward makes the experiance fun rather than miserable. This attitude always baffles me when full loot is being talked about, everyone always thinks of the loss rather than the gain. Sure your gonna lose sometime, but then you make sure you take precautions.
Full pvp loot in most games atm wouldn't work as items make or break the char, for a pvp game to work they need to make sure items/class always come a distant second to player skill so that losing gear isn't basically going to kill your char off, most pvp games I have played know this and make sure it's the case they also make sure the gaining of items isn't a long grueling process usually via crafting or high drop chances.
Balancing pve/pvp in one game isn't possible imo, people who want pve want good items, good items will always give you too big an advantage, hence pvp becomes imbalanced.
I am hoping sometime soon a pvp game will be made where those of us who enjoy a full loot/open pvp can feel at home (fingers crossed for darkfall).