Originally posted by Piiritus Personally I prefer good games because I have one world already where I live in. I don't need more worlds. Just a good game is all I want.
There are already thousands upon thousands of games. Using your line of reasoning you shouldn't want another one of those either.
Want just a game, go play a console RPG game. Don't try turning mmorpg's into console games. Mmorpg are meant to be huge with lots of features, social aspects, and much more. Stop trying to reason for dumbing down mmorpg's.
That is the most arrogant and condescending post. Who are you to dictate what players should do? If MMOs are being more game-like, why shouldn't i play it if i like games more than world?
Dumbing down? Making players sit for 20 min boat ride is not dumbing now, it is smarting up. It is trivial to take a boad ride and there is no challenge. Worlds are full of dumb, slow, moment. Don't tell me the need to sit down and eat for 5 min (realistic .. but boring) is challening.
MMORPS are not meant for anything. They are entertaining products and change according to players' need. If the old ideas (like big world and forced social) are not working, why shouldn't something else (lobby games!) be tried?
I disagree.
Realistic rides boost strategies, since make the players plan better the position of your forces or a military operation considering the expected time to allys come in help of the enemys or theirs.
I think that this struggle between mmo fans that want "true" mmorpgs and players that think that mmos are "just games" like any other will only ends when a AAA sandbox come and these 2 types of players become finaly separated, each one in your AAA mmo of your preference.
At moment, the nearer of a AAA sandbox mmo to come is Archeage.
LOl .. listen to yourself grasping for straws.
I was there .. the 20 min boat ride in EQ. It adds NOTHING. What positions of forces of military operations? Are we talking about fantasy MMO or not? There is no military operations in any of the fantasy MMORPG.
Not arrogant at all. This is mmorpg, not single player, small world, no crafting, no exploration, no content, boring end game, and no social aspect of a console game. Whats arrogant is people that want kotor4 whinning and crying and we end up with SWTOR the most "epic" mmo ever that crashed and burned in a month. Or GW2 thats falling faster than a fat person being pushed out of a plane. Its simple the 2 must be seperated or you get failures. And there have been more than a handful of those lately. All trying to be like single player rpg's.
This giant post is basically saying 'This is what an MMO is and shall be!' to other people.
If you can't see why that is arrogant, then you are beyond help.
Exactly. Lots of rant.
In fact, he said "Time to renew the old ways." .. lol. I thought people here want innovation instead of old ideas who are losing popularity.
Have an open mind and accept new features, and new gameplay style in MMOs.
You keep referring to one game out of 2 dozen that didnt have long travel wait times lol. If that is your only arguement, then you are off your rocker.
Let me inform you of some things you obviously are not aware of.
Sandbox does not mean the following:
Full loot pvp
open world pvp
no quests
no end content
long travel wait times
forced grouping
These are misconceptions, some games have some of these sure. But doesnt mean every sandbox is like that.
I doubt we're gonna see a world simulation anytime soon from any worthwhile developer. I'm sure plenty of indies / hobby developers will attempt it, but those will fail almost guaranteed, or be of poor quality.
Because a proper world simulation will have so many un-fun details. Do we really want to tidy our virtual desks, and take out the virtual trash?
MMOs are entertainment products, and they better focus on what people find fun. There seems to be the mistaken notion that the more real a virtual world is, the more fun it is . .. i reject that as sounding good on paper, but not in practice.
Lots of new successful online games (LOL, D3, WOT ...) all found that you don't need a virtual world to have fun ... better focus on a narrow but very well done slice of gameplay.
Not arrogant at all. This is mmorpg, not single player, small world, no crafting, no exploration, no content, boring end game, and no social aspect of a console game. Whats arrogant is people that want kotor4 whinning and crying and we end up with SWTOR the most "epic" mmo ever that crashed and burned in a month. Or GW2 thats falling faster than a fat person being pushed out of a plane. Its simple the 2 must be seperated or you get failures. And there have been more than a handful of those lately. All trying to be like single player rpg's.
This giant post is basically saying 'This is what an MMO is and shall be!' to other people.
If you can't see why that is arrogant, then you are beyond help.
Exactly. Lots of rant.
In fact, he said "Time to renew the old ways." .. lol. I thought people here want innovation instead of old ideas who are losing popularity.
Have an open mind and accept new features, and new gameplay style in MMOs.
Yeah we have been and all the games released are crap. If you like these no brainer games, by all means go play them. But dont argue petty things not to make a better mmo. Because the new way is clearly not cutting it. Every mmo released in the past 3 years has died within 3 months of release minus maybe 2. Yeah ok.
New features you say? What new features? MMO's released today have no freaking features lol.
You must be a troll because obviously you have over looked the 45 failures of this so called new features and new game play lol.
Yeah we have been and all the games released are crap. If you like these no brainer games, by all means go play them. But dont argue petty things not to make a better mmo. Because the new way is clearly not cutting it. Every mmo released in the past 3 years has died within 3 months of release minus maybe 2. Yeah ok.
New features you say? What new features? MMO's released today have no freaking features lol.
You must be a troll because obviously you have over looked the 45 failures of this so called new features and new game play lol.
No new features? LFD/LFR is new. Phasing is new.
Look at WOW. New expansion .. all raid/dungeons on LFD and LFR .. now they are back up to 10M subs.
GW is a success. GW2 is a success. They don't even pretend to need subs.
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
Worlds that you build and help develop the story line. Check out these two titles that are near their Alpha stage. Support these games if you truely want Worlds.
Worlds that you build and help develop the story line. Check out these two titles that are near their Alpha statge. Support these games if you truely want Worlds.
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?
Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?
Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.
Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.
Regarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs.
The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."
That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.
Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?
Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.
Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.
So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.
Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay? I don't.
Regarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs.
The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."
That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.
Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Most people suck at storytelling so this is a good thing.
But hey, just like how many avid readers are closet writers, many MMORPG players are closet designers... threads like this encourage some to take a step out of the closet.
Regardless of the title any thread that either has the word "sandbox" or references sandboxy features in the title is really just the same "This is how I would design an MMO" discussion.
Personally, I'm in it for entertainment and profesional story-tellers do it best. As a matter of fact, in all the countless hours I've spent in MMOs the only thing I've seen that players do pretty well is "event creation"... and the ones I'm thinking of were all massive PvP events.
If I have to choose between the realism of house building, the need to eat and drink (and excrete? why do we never get excretion? ) etc. or the technical ability to support 500 of us having an impromptu fight over an objective, I'll choose #2 every time... much higher fun quotient.
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Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?
Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.
Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.
So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.
I disagree. Player content normally is more complex to handle, challenging and random. AI content in mmos (comparatively with real single-player games) is dull, shallow, boring and repetitive. So, you will consider AI content funnier than player content only if you consider player content so hard to handle that it ceases to be funny to you.
Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay?
Regarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs.
The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."
That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.
Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. You know in the inbetween time between Pong and Atari)
Now or atleast in the past with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.
So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.
Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.
I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.
But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
Regarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs.
The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."
That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.
Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.
So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.
Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.
I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.
But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
I did play all those things. But no you can't do that in MMO's. With legos we could build anything we want. With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that. We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.
We cannot do that in any MMO to date. We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay. Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world. Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world. MMO's so far don't.
What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW. The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends. That isn't a story.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by ReklawOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarRegarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs. The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story. I did play all those things. But no you can't do that in MMO's. With legos we could build anything we want. With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that. We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.
We cannot do that in any MMO to date. We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay. Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world. Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world. MMO's so far don't.
What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW. The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends. That isn't a story.
This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.
Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I disagree. Player content normally is more complex to handle, challenging and random. AI content in mmos (comparatively with real single-player games) is dull, shallow, boring and repetitive. So, you will consider AI content funnier than player content only if you consider player content so hard to handle that it ceases to be funny to you.
Funny? I have yet to play a game that telling joke is a core gameplay. AI is pretty effective (if the dev wants) in combat. In fact, Blizz has to tone down the difficulties of many games.
Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay?
Yes, please!
Then we disagree. If you want drama to be your game, join a book club. I don't play games for guild (or any other) drama.
This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.
Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.
Exactly. You don't need a world to let people tell stories. Look back at text adventure and interactive fiction. Anyone can do it. A world has nothing to do with it.
Even the old Neverwinter allows users to make modules (and hence stories), and there is NO world.
I prefer a world that tells it's own story and the world is the focus. Not the individual player. If you need to feel like the special hero that saves everything there are plenty of other games and genres for that. I thought I read an article a while back that said that quite a few of the stories from EQ1 that the players passed around as lore were actually false. Kind of cool to have your own myths and legends in a game like that with so much more to do yet.
Think they could get back to that if they focused less on "storylines" and focused more on the lore and leave the rest to the playerbase.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarRegarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs. The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
I did play all those things. But no you can't do that in MMO's. With legos we could build anything we want. With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that. We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.
We cannot do that in any MMO to date. We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay. Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world. Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world. MMO's so far don't.
What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW. The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends. That isn't a story.
This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.
Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.
I've been playing pretty extensively with Skyrims creation kit lately. This is how we used to play with lego's. They gave us the tools and we did whatever the heck we wanted. When playing with transformers sometimes we would follow the Tv rules, other times we did things totally different and now the transformer changes into a space station instead of a truck. MMO's don't let us do this. So far they don't let us alter the world (most dont even have housing), they don't let significantly change our character, most don't let us create the quests or the enemy in the game world (some let us play an instanced quest we design).
In Skyrim I had an idea of how I wanted the character to look, his abilities, his house. Then either I developed the mod for that or found another mod that let play that way. Now I have created my own story and am playing it in the real world.
Skyrim lets me do all of that. It would be nice if we could find a way to do that in MMO's, hard yes, and very difficult to stop abuse, and I doubt it is possible to the same extent Skyrim does it, but it would still be nice. That would then be a real sandbox, that would let me truely create my own story.
I would actually settle for a combination of types of games. Real world housing (VG, Istaria, SWG) that can be built brick and board like EQ2, ATITD. The inside could be instanced I don't mind and then altered decorated (CoH, EQ2). Have a skill system or a level system like Istaria where I can learn everything and change whenver I want. Combine all this with abilities to have guild to guild war (not ffa pvp but a guild/faction/god system). Then have a system where I can create some quests for people in the world to do, or that is needed for my house/city... and combine all this with a game with as many quests a EQ2 and Wow. That would be game that literally lets me do almost anything I want. I'd play it forever.
edit - combine other real world elements such as bridge building, finding a dungeon that has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I prefer a world that tells it's own story and the world is the focus. Not the individual player. If you need to feel like the special hero that saves everything there are plenty of other games and genres for that. I thought I read an article a while back that said that quite a few of the stories from EQ1 that the players passed around as lore were actually false. Kind of cool to have your own myths and legends in a game like that with so much more to do yet.
Think they could get back to that if they focused less on "storylines" and focused more on the lore and leave the rest to the playerbase.
Yeh. WOW has it. DDO has it. LOTRO has it. TOR has it. Plenty of MMORP"Games" have stories to make you the special hero.
Comments
LOl .. listen to yourself grasping for straws.
I was there .. the 20 min boat ride in EQ. It adds NOTHING. What positions of forces of military operations? Are we talking about fantasy MMO or not? There is no military operations in any of the fantasy MMORPG.
Really? NOt even SIMS go that far.
Give me a game. This world sim thing is just silly.
Exactly. Lots of rant.
In fact, he said "Time to renew the old ways." .. lol. I thought people here want innovation instead of old ideas who are losing popularity.
Have an open mind and accept new features, and new gameplay style in MMOs.
You keep referring to one game out of 2 dozen that didnt have long travel wait times lol. If that is your only arguement, then you are off your rocker.
Let me inform you of some things you obviously are not aware of.
Sandbox does not mean the following:
Full loot pvp
open world pvp
no quests
no end content
long travel wait times
forced grouping
These are misconceptions, some games have some of these sure. But doesnt mean every sandbox is like that.
Because a proper world simulation will have so many un-fun details. Do we really want to tidy our virtual desks, and take out the virtual trash?
MMOs are entertainment products, and they better focus on what people find fun. There seems to be the mistaken notion that the more real a virtual world is, the more fun it is . .. i reject that as sounding good on paper, but not in practice.
Lots of new successful online games (LOL, D3, WOT ...) all found that you don't need a virtual world to have fun ... better focus on a narrow but very well done slice of gameplay.
Yeah we have been and all the games released are crap. If you like these no brainer games, by all means go play them. But dont argue petty things not to make a better mmo. Because the new way is clearly not cutting it. Every mmo released in the past 3 years has died within 3 months of release minus maybe 2. Yeah ok.
New features you say? What new features? MMO's released today have no freaking features lol.
You must be a troll because obviously you have over looked the 45 failures of this so called new features and new game play lol.
No new features? LFD/LFR is new. Phasing is new.
Look at WOW. New expansion .. all raid/dungeons on LFD and LFR .. now they are back up to 10M subs.
GW is a success. GW2 is a success. They don't even pretend to need subs.
Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?
Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.
A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.
Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.
It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles.
Worlds that you build and help develop the story line. Check out these two titles that are near their Alpha stage. Support these games if you truely want Worlds.
http://www.greedmonger.com/
http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/
+ http://www.therepopulation.com/
That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?
Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.
Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.
Regarding the whole players create their own story. To me this is largely bs.
The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."
That is not a story. Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person. It is the weakest form of story there is.
Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time. That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.
Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay? I don't.
Most people suck at storytelling so this is a good thing.
But hey, just like how many avid readers are closet writers, many MMORPG players are closet designers... threads like this encourage some to take a step out of the closet.
Regardless of the title any thread that either has the word "sandbox" or references sandboxy features in the title is really just the same "This is how I would design an MMO" discussion.
Personally, I'm in it for entertainment and profesional story-tellers do it best. As a matter of fact, in all the countless hours I've spent in MMOs the only thing I've seen that players do pretty well is "event creation"... and the ones I'm thinking of were all massive PvP events.
If I have to choose between the realism of house building, the need to eat and drink (and excrete? why do we never get excretion?
) etc. or the technical ability to support 500 of us having an impromptu fight over an objective, I'll choose #2 every time... much higher fun quotient.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I disagree. Player content normally is more complex to handle, challenging and random. AI content in mmos (comparatively with real single-player games) is dull, shallow, boring and repetitive. So, you will consider AI content funnier than player content only if you consider player content so hard to handle that it ceases to be funny to you.
Yes, please!
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. You know in the inbetween time between Pong and Atari)
Now or atleast in the past with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.
So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.
Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.
I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.
But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
I did play all those things. But no you can't do that in MMO's. With legos we could build anything we want. With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that. We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.
We cannot do that in any MMO to date. We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay. Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world. Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world. MMO's so far don't.
What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW. The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends. That isn't a story.
I did play all those things. But no you can't do that in MMO's. With legos we could build anything we want. With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that. We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.
We cannot do that in any MMO to date. We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay. Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world. Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world. MMO's so far don't.
What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW. The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends. That isn't a story.
This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.
Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Exactly. You don't need a world to let people tell stories. Look back at text adventure and interactive fiction. Anyone can do it. A world has nothing to do with it.
Even the old Neverwinter allows users to make modules (and hence stories), and there is NO world.
I prefer a world that tells it's own story and the world is the focus. Not the individual player. If you need to feel like the special hero that saves everything there are plenty of other games and genres for that. I thought I read an article a while back that said that quite a few of the stories from EQ1 that the players passed around as lore were actually false. Kind of cool to have your own myths and legends in a game like that with so much more to do yet.
Think they could get back to that if they focused less on "storylines" and focused more on the lore and leave the rest to the playerbase.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
I've been playing pretty extensively with Skyrims creation kit lately. This is how we used to play with lego's. They gave us the tools and we did whatever the heck we wanted. When playing with transformers sometimes we would follow the Tv rules, other times we did things totally different and now the transformer changes into a space station instead of a truck. MMO's don't let us do this. So far they don't let us alter the world (most dont even have housing), they don't let significantly change our character, most don't let us create the quests or the enemy in the game world (some let us play an instanced quest we design).
In Skyrim I had an idea of how I wanted the character to look, his abilities, his house. Then either I developed the mod for that or found another mod that let play that way. Now I have created my own story and am playing it in the real world.
Skyrim lets me do all of that. It would be nice if we could find a way to do that in MMO's, hard yes, and very difficult to stop abuse, and I doubt it is possible to the same extent Skyrim does it, but it would still be nice. That would then be a real sandbox, that would let me truely create my own story.
I would actually settle for a combination of types of games. Real world housing (VG, Istaria, SWG) that can be built brick and board like EQ2, ATITD. The inside could be instanced I don't mind and then altered decorated (CoH, EQ2). Have a skill system or a level system like Istaria where I can learn everything and change whenver I want. Combine all this with abilities to have guild to guild war (not ffa pvp but a guild/faction/god system). Then have a system where I can create some quests for people in the world to do, or that is needed for my house/city... and combine all this with a game with as many quests a EQ2 and Wow. That would be game that literally lets me do almost anything I want. I'd play it forever.
edit - combine other real world elements such as bridge building, finding a dungeon that has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt...
Yeh. WOW has it. DDO has it. LOTRO has it. TOR has it. Plenty of MMORP"Games" have stories to make you the special hero.
the story is as old as it gets
Sandboxers want them Parkdwellers to join their realm to rape em 24/7. At least be so honest and admit it .