This is why grinding games typically out live questing games.

Abuz0r · December 2012

Before you post all your examples of short lived grinding games, do understand this post is a 'generally speaking' thing and there are plenty of exceptions to it. I understand and don't really need your exception list.

In a game that is grinding focused, the content of the game is determined by a players personal dedication to the game. If you are looking for a particular item for your character which is rare, you go to the monster capable of dropping it and farm away.

In a grinding game, you can stay in 1 area and keep fighting monsters, get a feel for how your character works, and your time isn't consumed by running between npcs as an errand boy.

Now to the point: Why grinding games live longer.

In a quest based game, the content and gameplay is determined by what the developers decided to implement. It's like a series on television, and they have to keep delivering new and exciting content to you before you lose interest. This puts your gameplay entirely in their hands and as soon as they start failing you move on.

^^^Guild Wars 2. It was the best conceivable questing game imagineable. They made every type of quest known to man, and once you finished them you moved on. Notice how quick it is becoming a ghost game.

Daily quests, repeat quests, 1 time quests, epic quests, walking quests. They're all just a tool to keep you on the server so that you finish 1 task and move on to the next one. Once the tasks start to seem dull or start becoming repetitive, or you've earned all of the rewards from the quests that you need, you move on.

Grinding games use the carrot on a stick approach. Yes there's this epic item that will make you insanely OP, but only 1 out of 108938247328975283947103 monsters drops it so you'll have to farm away. Now grinding / farming will net you other rewards and maybe rares in the mean time and other things that are useful in the gameworld, but ultimately there's this one thing you're looking for.

Also in grind games the 'good players' are ones who are the most dedicated and willing to spend the largest amount of their time, or the lucky ones. In quest games the 'good players' are the first ones to finish jumping through the hoops, and are already ready to move on.

Anyways the grind, the carrot on a stick, the ability to improve your character outside of the 'box' which questing represents, is what keeps players on a game for a long time. The ability to have something to do, a reason to leave the town after you're max level, something to achieve, something rare you can get and sell, something noone else has. There's no way to make a quest that gives a reward no1 else has gotten.

Anyways, maybe someone can concisely state my point better than I can. I'm not saying I enjoy mind numbing grind all day, but if the net result is rewarding to the overall existence of my character, it's fun.

Do you like quest or grind???

StonesDK · December 2012

You just described the skinner box and operant conditioning. It isn't a new novelty.

The problem is people will take the path of least resistance so if WoW lets them get rewards faster, then why play X game where it takes you months just to obtain a fraction of what other games give you here and now.

Tbia88 · December 2012

I like a good mix of both....

For instance in EQ back in the days pre POP. You had the armor quests in the temple of Ro I think it was.

You are told about special armor for your class blah blah blah, we need X Y Z item... sounds like every other quest. Cept you arent told where to go, you arent told how hard some of these fights are, and you arent told how rare the items are.

Leaves you grinding forever for these items, the items you need are spread out over many dungeons and overworld areas, making you explore the game, fighting in harder areas, and the end reward is great. Games need more of that.

Also that main thing that makes or breaks a game is community. You can't have a game without community, no matter the content. I;ll be honest if i had all my friends playing hello kitty, i would play with them. As long as we have fun, making jokes, doing our thing. I only left the games I used to play because people I played with and met in game and became friends with no longer played.

Content doesnt mean a thing if you arent enjoying the people you are playing with.

tollbooth · December 2012

I dislike the term "grind" because imo lvling off quest is much more of a grind compared to lvling off mobs. I much prefer learning how to play by playing my class, and not just being dragged around a world i never look at looking for ! marks.

VengeSunsoar · December 2012

I think what you consider the exception list is a longer list than your main list.

Therefore they are not exceptions. They are the rule.

Games that we consider questing games have been around for many many years with populations just as good as the original MMOs.

Quizzical · December 2012

Yes, quest-based games do have the problem that, after a while, you've played through the content and it's time to move on. Grinding-based games have the problem that after about 5 minutes, you've already played through the content and it's time to move on. Advantage, questing.

You say that in a grinding-based game, how long a player stays is determined by how dedicated to the game the player is. But why should a player be dedicated to a game that doesn't have anything interesting to do? So he can get epic loot that doesn't exist outside of a game he dislikes, and is therefore useless to him?

Abuz0r · December 2012

Originally posted by Tbia88
I like a good mix of both....

For instance in EQ back in the days pre POP. You had the armor quests in the temple of Ro I think it was.

You are told about special armor for your class blah blah blah, we need X Y Z item... sounds like every other quest. Cept you arent told where to go, you arent told how hard some of these fights are, and you arent told how rare the items are.

Leaves you grinding forever for these items, the items you need are spread out over many dungeons and overworld areas, making you explore the game, fighting in harder areas, and the end reward is great. Games need more of that.

Also that main thing that makes or breaks a game is community. You can't have a game without community, no matter the content. I;ll be honest if i had all my friends playing hello kitty, i would play with them. As long as we have fun, making jokes, doing our thing. I only left the games I used to play because people I played with and met in game and became friends with no longer played.

Content doesnt mean a thing if you arent enjoying the people you are playing with.

Yes, grinding should contribute to a background quest, I like that. Lineage 2 does that pretty well. Lineage 2 fails at the uniqueness of items however, the only thing that makes an item great is if you got really lucky or spent billions upgrading it.

TheLizardbones · December 2012

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I think what you consider the exception list is a longer list than your main list.Therefore they are not exceptions. They are the rule.Games that we consider questing games have been around for many many years with populations just as good as the original MMOs.

They seem to include an element of grind as well, it's just set at the end game, in dungeons, raids and things like rep grinds.

I don't think quest based games replaced grind games, they just added a bunch of questing prior to the grinding.

Icewhite · December 2012

Originally posted by Starpower
You just described the skinner box and operant conditioning. It isn't a new novelty.

The problem is people will take the path of least resistance so if WoW lets them get rewards faster, then why play X game where it takes you months just to obtain a fraction of what other games give you here and now.

You can encourage people to try something other than the path of least resistance, but they'll refuse to do it.

WoW could be (fairly easily) treated in the same manner as a Korean grinder, as far as leveling goes. (You're still leveling ridiculously quickly in the sub-40 set...but you want out of there anyway, right? Critturs are freakin boring.

You could also intentionally undergear yourself; which tends to almost break leveling design completely. Bob the Archmage running around in his L10 whites, with no mana or spellpower to speak of.

But even the most vocal "too damn fast" players are still capping an alt in a couple weeks--because they know how to get there most efficiently. And if you note that they could easily brake themselves, the only answer is "I shouldn't have to."

It's a very weird kind of self-contradiction. Wasn't braking important to you only two seconds ago?

nariusseldon · December 2012

Originally posted by Starpower
You just described the skinner box and operant conditioning. It isn't a new novelty.

The problem is people will take the path of least resistance so if WoW lets them get rewards faster, then why play X game where it takes you months just to obtain a fraction of what other games give you here and now.

Why is this a "problem"? People are what they are. Skinner box is fun becase of human psychology. If they go with the path of the least resistance .. let them. We are talking abotu entertainment here, we are not building better technology, or anything that actually requires real work.

Icewhite · December 2012

Originally posted by nariusseldon

or anything that actually requires real work.

What is your profession Narius?

I'd like to scoff at and belittle it.

Anthur · December 2012

I can't see any really big difference between quest grinding and mob (or whatever) grinding games. And I doubt that mob grinding games outlive quest grinding games. Take alone WoW. There are probably more hours spent totlly of all gamers together in that game than in all mob grinding games together.

So, I guess that means I disagree.

Siveria · December 2012

Originally posted by Tbia88
I like a good mix of both....

For instance in EQ back in the days pre POP. You had the armor quests in the temple of Ro I think it was.

You are told about special armor for your class blah blah blah, we need X Y Z item... sounds like every other quest. Cept you arent told where to go, you arent told how hard some of these fights are, and you arent told how rare the items are.

Leaves you grinding forever for these items, the items you need are spread out over many dungeons and overworld areas, making you explore the game, fighting in harder areas, and the end reward is great. Games need more of that.

Also that main thing that makes or breaks a game is community. You can't have a game without community, no matter the content. I;ll be honest if i had all my friends playing hello kitty, i would play with them. As long as we have fun, making jokes, doing our thing. I only left the games I used to play because people I played with and met in game and became friends with no longer played.

Content doesnt mean a thing if you arent enjoying the people you are playing with.

The problem is most of these mmorpgs are bascally becoming single player games with a glorified irc chat system, wow, swtor, rift, gw2, many others you can hit the level cap decently fast by yourself without needing to bother with the community, this is the main problem with mmo's today, the fact they are bascally not MMO's anymore. Look at ff11 as a prime example, it is a very community based mmorpg, yet its still doing well. Now compare that to the recent themepark mmo's other than WoW, they basecally are dead before the first month after release is up. My friend with 2-3 other friends of his did every single quest in the secret world in about 3 days, then he quit the game, because there was nothing left in the game worth doing. Even if TSW had raiding he still would not have bothered since raiding endgame in most of these themepark mmo's is dead end, WoW is a prime example, you raid for gear, but then what? what is the gear good for? there is no more use for it, unlike in daoc or eq2 where there are things you can use the raid gear for. I mean raiding when wow came out and getting the gear was a major accomplishment because only like 1% of the playerbase was able to do the raids, and people would be shocked that they have the gear. Compared to now where any moron can raid and get the gear, which makes it pointless.

Leiloni · December 2012

Originally posted by Starpower
You just described the skinner box and operant conditioning. It isn't a new novelty.

The problem is people will take the path of least resistance so if WoW lets them get rewards faster, then why play X game where it takes you months just to obtain a fraction of what other games give you here and now.

/thread

There is no mystery why people get addicted to grinding games. They are not more fun or better games in any way. Usually they are worse games. But it's harder to fight the human psyche and many players just get sucked in by it.

theoneandonly · December 2012

Grind - more pvp if game alows it

quest - more pve

So yes i` rather have more grind

imo

VengeSunsoar · December 2012

Originally posted by Siveria
Originally posted by Tbia88
I like a good mix of both....

For instance in EQ back in the days pre POP. You had the armor quests in the temple of Ro I think it was.

You are told about special armor for your class blah blah blah, we need X Y Z item... sounds like every other quest. Cept you arent told where to go, you arent told how hard some of these fights are, and you arent told how rare the items are.

Leaves you grinding forever for these items, the items you need are spread out over many dungeons and overworld areas, making you explore the game, fighting in harder areas, and the end reward is great. Games need more of that.

Also that main thing that makes or breaks a game is community. You can't have a game without community, no matter the content. I;ll be honest if i had all my friends playing hello kitty, i would play with them. As long as we have fun, making jokes, doing our thing. I only left the games I used to play because people I played with and met in game and became friends with no longer played.

Content doesnt mean a thing if you arent enjoying the people you are playing with.

The problem is most of these mmorpgs are bascally becoming single player games with a glorified irc chat system, wow, swtor, rift, gw2, many others you can hit the level cap decently fast by yourself without needing to bother with the community, this is the main problem with mmo's today, the fact they are bascally not MMO's anymore. Look at ff11 as a prime example, it is a very community based mmorpg, yet its still doing well. Now compare that to the recent themepark mmo's other than WoW, they basecally are dead before the first month after release is up. My friend with 2-3 other friends of his did every single quest in the secret world in about 3 days, then he quit the game, because there was nothing left in the game worth doing. Even if TSW had raiding he still would not have bothered since raiding endgame in most of these themepark mmo's is dead end, WoW is a prime example, you raid for gear, but then what? what is the gear good for? there is no more use for it, unlike in daoc or eq2 where there are things you can use the raid gear for. I mean raiding when wow came out and getting the gear was a major accomplishment because only like 1% of the playerbase was able to do the raids, and people would be shocked that they have the gear. Compared to now where any moron can raid and get the gear, which makes it pointless.

Even in most of the original games you could solo to cap. Yes it took longer but could be done, perhaps not in FFXI (only played that for about 2 weeks so I cant' comment).

Most themepark MMO's yes even today have the same population levels as most old games.

If I was a developer I would not want to waste my time desigining something that 99% of the people who play my games would not be able to do. Not good use of my time.

Abuz0r · December 2012

Yes the PvP point is well made. Grinding gets people out in the world so that PvP can happen. Questing and instance games keep people hidden safely in inaccessible areas.

Sovrath · December 2012

Originally posted by Quizzical
Yes, quest-based games do have the problem that, after a while, you've played through the content and it's time to move on. Grinding-based games have the problem that after about 5 minutes, you've already played through the content and it's time to move on. Advantage, questing.

You say that in a grinding-based game, how long a player stays is determined by how dedicated to the game the player is. But why should a player be dedicated to a game that doesn't have anything interesting to do? So he can get epic loot that doesn't exist outside of a game he dislikes, and is therefore useless to him?

I disagree.

Grind based games aren't "about" the grinding so much as getting groups together going to the bowels of some dungeon and "having a good time". it's more about the social experience and those "oh sh*t" moments. That can last for quite some time.

Quest based games are usually solo with some sporadic group quest that everhone does then breaks group.

Grind based games can be done solo (which I did a lot of) but that's only for those who enjoy the rhythm of the grind. I would also add that they can be about resources like lineage 2; where groups or individuals would fight over prime hutning grounds.

However, if a player hates grinding then there is nothing to be done about it. They just hate it.

for my preference (and it is preference of course) I'll take a grind based game with a larger metagame any day.

Abuz0r · December 2012

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Quizzical
Yes, quest-based games do have the problem that, after a while, you've played through the content and it's time to move on. Grinding-based games have the problem that after about 5 minutes, you've already played through the content and it's time to move on. Advantage, questing.

You say that in a grinding-based game, how long a player stays is determined by how dedicated to the game the player is. But why should a player be dedicated to a game that doesn't have anything interesting to do? So he can get epic loot that doesn't exist outside of a game he dislikes, and is therefore useless to him?

I disagree.

Grind based games aren't "about" the grinding so much as getting groups together going to the bowels of some dungeon and "having a good time". it's more about the social experience and those "oh sh*t" moments. That can last for quite some time.

Quest based games are usually solo with some sporadic group quest that everhone does then breaks group.

Grind based games can be done solo (which I did a lot of) but that's only for those who enjoy the rhythm of the grind. I would also add that they can be about resources like lineage 2; where groups or individuals would fight over prime hutning grounds.

However, if a player hates grinding then there is nothing to be done about it. They just hate it.

for my preference (and it is preference of course) I'll take a grind based game with a larger metagame any day.

You absolutely hit the nail on the head. Those "oh shit" moments LOL!!!! Those are the best. In the quest based games those cause a lot of flaming and hatred but in the grinding games with your friends they're just plain funny.

Trudge34 · December 2012

I don't understand the term "grind" being used as mob killing the main focus of leveling. I always associated grind with just putting your nose down and "grinding" through whatever you needed to achive whatever goal you put forward. "Grinding" through a bit of boredom to gain that last level, or "grind" out those last few AA for your skill or "grinding" out that last quest hub to finish the questline in the zone / area / whatever.

Considering combat seems to be the core of just about any game, I don't understand why games that have the focus on killing mobs is automatically labeld a "grind" game. I felt much more grind leveling through Rift than I did with EQ. I didn't consider setting up a camp for exp and killing at our own pace "grinding" when I was leveling through EQ. There were times I did, but that's when we'd be multi / chain pulling for hours. You know, putting your nose to the grindstone and pushing out as much exp as you could because you wanted to get it done that day. Somehow the definition got lost in translation over time I'm thinking.

aesperus · December 2012

Originally posted by Starpower
You just described the skinner box and operant conditioning. It isn't a new novelty.

The problem is people will take the path of least resistance so if WoW lets them get rewards faster, then why play X game where it takes you months just to obtain a fraction of what other games give you here and now.

This ^

People always take the path of least resistance. Many don't even realize they're doing it. This is why so many people blaze through content at increasingly faster rates, and then complain about there not being any. This is why people complain about games being too simplistic, and then complain when they can't grind out their dungeon in under 5 mins.

Unfortunately, on the whole, these are the types of games we are supporting =/.

Sevenstar61 · December 2012

Originally posted by Tbia88
I like a good mix of both....

For instance in EQ back in the days pre POP. You had the armor quests in the temple of Ro I think it was.

You are told about special armor for your class blah blah blah, we need X Y Z item... sounds like every other quest. Cept you arent told where to go, you arent told how hard some of these fights are, and you arent told how rare the items are.

Leaves you grinding forever for these items, the items you need are spread out over many dungeons and overworld areas, making you explore the game, fighting in harder areas, and the end reward is great. Games need more of that.

Hah, still remember EQ2 questing.... sometimes frustrating as hell....

But only until somebody wrote the walk through /grin.. EQ2 walkthrough guides are pretty detailed LOL...

Then it is ... go find a quest walk through... and do a quest... LOL majority of players do just this... in fact EQ2 was the only MMO I was using walk through regularly... yeah I know... I missed all the fun of spending countless hours trying to figure something I did not even understand what author had in mind writing it... but maybe it was because English is my second language LOL

To be honest... some of EQ2 quests were written in such way that without walk through it was nothing more then this...

I know though some people enjoyed the challenge /grin

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This is why grinding games typically out live questing games.

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This is why grinding games typically out live questing games.

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