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Solo vs Team, PvP vs PvE, Casual vs Hard Core
AlBQuirky
Member EpicPosts: 7,432
First of all, my apologies if this has been covered thousands of times before.
Second of all, my apologies that this will be a long-winded post. I hope I don't lose too many folks with my ramblings.
Thirdly, I hope that some MMOG company reads some of this and takes a few notes.
My MMOG Background
I started playing MMOGs just after EverQuest released Kunark. I played about 3 years when City of Heroes came out. I left EQ and played CoH full-time. I have dabbled in WoW, but just cannot seem to immerse myself in that VERY cartoonish world. I played Guild Wars, too, until I had to take "the big trip". the first part is fun. The second part is not for me. I came across Vanguard awhile back and see that it is now gearing up for Beta testing. I visited their forums and am not liking what I see coming from them. This is partly responsible for my post here.
Solo vs Team Dynamics
Many times, a post espousing the want of solo content gets met posts of "anti-socialism" and "Why play MMOGs?". People who post these comebacks miss the point of solo content. Let me try to explain where "soloers" are coming from, if I may.
1) Solo players are usually more sociable than teams. When in a team, a player is focused on the team objective. There is no time for a healer to heal a random PC in the midst of a fight. A teaming player may not take the time to answer a nOOb's question posed in the broadcast channel. A solo player, many times, will take the time to interact with the players around them. Sure, there are times when soloing that in the heat of battle chat messages go unnoticed or help cannot be lent to those in need. You won't find many people alreadt in a team standing around the sociable areas chit-chatting or being sociable. Understandable as they have things to do and people waiting on them.
2) To me, the solo game and the team game are two toally different games. I enjoy BOTH playstyles.
When soloing, the game pace is slower. I can play the game exactly how I feel like playing at the time. When running quests/missions, I can take a smoke break when I need to without inconveniencing others, I can sell my loot when my packs are full, I can train up when I reach the next level, I can take the time to read and absorb what the NPCs are saying to me, and I can stop and watch a tree sway in the wind if I so desire. I can also stop and help out others if I can.
When teaming, the game pace is much faster. I hardly take notice of the quest/mission dialogues, clicking through quickly so as not to slow down the team, when we start clicking the XP just rolls in, and I can fight MOBs I normally cannot even think about taking on solo, thus seeing new content. It can be fun when we click as a team.
3) What I dislike about teaming is that I am at the mercy of faceless others for my enjoyment. Sitting around for 15 (if you're lucky) or more minutes spamming "LFG" or trying to form up a team is not fun. Finding self-cenetered, inconsiderate teammates is not fun. Learning how best to fit into the team dynamic and pull one's own weight and contribute, is breathtakingly fun.
4) Many people think that "soloing random MOBs" constitutes solo content. It does not. Content is made up of world immersion like quests/mission, reasons for being there, and the chance to make a difference. Killing random MOBs is about as much fun as "Duckhunt".
5) Another rebuttal against soloists is "How easy do you want the game?" closely linked with "Do soloists want the same loot as "Groupers"? I want the game challenging. Of course, challenging to me does not mean the same thing as professional FPS players. I detest button mashing, which is a mainstay of FPS and Console players. I am just too old and uncoordinated for this type of play. Because I know my limitations, I play neither FPSs nor Consoles. People who DO like this style of play have FPSs and Concoles to play, plus a myriad of MMOGs built just for them. There are not many MMOGs out there with my playstyle in mind. Now comes the "Play WoW" post. WoW just is not for me. It is too cartoonie and my immersion in it just never takes off. There is STILL PvP, so I get at least 2-5 flags thrown at me every hour I am online there. And this on Normal and RP servers! Suffice it to say, I am not interested in WoW. The lack of social skills by more than half the player population that I have encountered also has me running for the hills away from the game. As far as ease of game, I thnk I should have good chance of winning against even con MOBs. The game should be weighted in my, the player, favor. Since I am supposedly a hero, I should be able to at least have a chance against a MOB a little above me in level. Named MOBs and Uber MOBs? I best be calling in my friends for help.
6) Many people post things like "Oblivion is coming out soon!" or "Why not play a desktop game?" Well... as many times as I have played Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, they are ALWAYS the same. Always. In an MMOG, the world changes and the other players bring that world to life. Nowhere in the anchronym "MMOG" or even "MMORPG" is the word "Teaming" or "Grouping". (The "G" stands for Game.) Massively Multiplayer just means that a whole bunch of people are playing the same game at the same time. And that is what brings the MMOG world to life!
Two very different gameplay styles. Both enjoyable. Neither one needs to be exclusionary. I do not see this discussion as an "either/or" thing.
PvP vs PvE
1) I am terrible at PvP. I get no kicks out of that playstyle. I like having the equipment I have because it does what I like, not because it min/maxes my character. I understand people's desire to play PvP. It is just not for me. There are many, many other games including massive amounts of MMOGs that include PvP to play. I liked City of Heroes for the LACK of PvP. Then they added it in and the engine was just not made for PvP. Now, it is a completely different game. I do not have to PvP, but my PvE game has changed drastically becasue of PvP changes.
2) Loot falls into this area. PvP people are affected by the loot others have access to and get. PvE people are not affected this way. This is where the trouble lies. If PvPers have "special loot", PvEers are left out of game content. Content they paid the same amount as the PvPers paid. And I am sympathetic to the PvPers. When what and how one plays affects anothers play, then we have to conscious and concerned about our actions and possibilities.
This is why I do not think PvP AND PvE can truly co-exist in one game. Unfortunately, we have accepted the sub-par PvP and sub-par PvE that MMOGs have thus far given us, due to the fact that there is no other choice.
Casual vs Hard Core
This is a tricky situation here. Developers have the toughest time balancing these two sides, usually failing both sides.
1) Hard Core gamers have my respect. I envy the amount of time they can and do devote to a game. Their desire to beat the game astounds me. But that is not how or why I play these games. I admire their desire to have their adrenaline pumping as much as possible during gameplay. Their hearts must be in GREAT shape!
2) Casual players are the ones most likely to form a community and be social. There is no "push to the end" for a casual gamer. Alt-itis often afflicts the casual gamer, but not necessarily. Casual gamers are rarely number crunchers. Casual gamers seem to play the games for the enjoyment of the game itself, with no apprent "agenda".
3) Balancing these two aspects is impossible. Make it hard core and the casual gamers find it too difficult to be any fun. Make it too casual, and hard core gamers find it boringly easy. More than likely, the hard core gamers will beat the game before the 30 day trial ends. The middle people are truly the lucky ones here. I think this is the target most MMOGs shoot for.
Conclusion (about time, right?)
I am a casual gamer. I enjoy playing with other people, but like my solo time. I dislike having to depend on others to get anything done when I play. I like the MMOG world becasue it is alive with other people. I rarely live, eat, sleep, breathe an online game. For me, it is simply a diversion. I'd like to see the MMOG people start to branch out and make decisions instead of making "middle of the road" after "middle of the road" games that fall short to me.
Am I crazy? (rhetorical question!) Do others feel disappointment after disappointment with each new "great game"?
Thank you if you made it this far. I appreciate the chance to voice my opinions here and welcome good discusisons.
EDIT
My apologies for the typos in here, but it was "too big" for the preview 
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Greetings,
I'd have to agree with AlBQuirky on most point, of course I have my own opinions and I guess I'll start the same way.
My gaming history started with the older Nintendo and then moved to the Sega and play station. My liking in RPG started with a friend showing me FF7 (Final Fantasy 7) that was it; from that point on I became obsessed with RPGs. Of course, at the age of 10 I though that I was doing pretty good to complete such a game. After its completion I went on to the rest of the series with the same intention of beating them because they where such a challenge for me. Then one day I heard about the MMORPG games all I could think was "Its possible to have more than one person playing a RPG?!?!?!?" With that a good friend showed me the respected Evercrack, I mean Everquest. I was hooked, I started as a Hardcore and as the time went by I slowed down and came to realize that the game is going nowhere, why rush? After a bit I stopped. As it went on I heard about WoW and CoH. WoW as I agree with AlBQuirky was a bit cartoony and CoH was not my style of play. So I want back to EQ but with a different style of play, and if AlBQuirky is correct than I'm a middleman. I like to solo mostly but an occasional party is nice. PvP is useless to me because I see no reason for such things, Every time I have seen it I see some big hot shot trying to kill some small fry for no reason other then to see them suffer, where is the challenge in that? Dont get me wrong if two people agree on and have fun doing such things, then who am I to stop them or say no. But as having the ability to kill someone who is significantly lower is nothing but rude and ill mannered. At this point I have done nothing but ramble and so this I'll end with a farewell.
Till our Paths cross again.
Yours truly, Sir Vakthra A. Omega
To and beyond all time I stand, Unweavering and Unbreakable to all those who withstand judgement from this world or the next. To this , I hold you in my soul.
This is exactly why I like soloing. I can help randoms, I can actually read why I'm killing mobs, I can take a break when I want, I can take in the scenery. I like grouping...but if I'm forced to...it's a problem.
And PvP versus PvE...well I'm sorry...I just DO NOT see where PvPers are coming from. It's an RPG, RPGs are not about killing other players, they're about following a storyline, defeating storyline foes, and becoming a gameworld hero. As a hero, to kill another citizen (let alone another player), should be anathema to your whole heroship. That being said I think WoW's PvP system on the NORMAL (PvE) servers is THE best PvP system hands down (at the moment...and of the games I've played...hehe), it fits the storyline, it's not random and it adds to the game. (I had finished with WoW before battlegrounds and honor fully came in so...can't comment on that too much)
Casual versus Hardcore is definitely the hardest issue of the 3 because they're pretty much mutually exclusive. You CANNOT make a game to suit both. Well you probably could but it would have to involve difficulty lvls. But, difficulty lvls don't make sense in MMORPGs a whole lot because you could just go and fight harder mobs. Oh, I hate to come back to it again, but this is where WoW shines too; if you want to make it harder you can go and fight harder mobs and not necessarily guarantee yourself of a 2 to 3 hit death. (I would have used EQ2 as an example here...until the recent con changes where they basically made it so everyone HAD to fight whites or be prepared to die...regularly) On the issue of how long a Hardcore player takes to "finish" a game, well you cannot design a game to suit someone who plays 18 hours a day and also make it fit someone who plays 1 or 2 hours a night 3 to 6 times a week. As for those who rush through content just to "ding-max" well, they haven't really played the game at all...have they?
Almost as long as the OP...hehe...sorry bout that.
One thing i don't get:
Why people would go online to play a mmorpg when they don't like pvp. Why dont you just stay on your single-player and diablo/baulder's gate-type online games where the storyline is much better and where the entire game is based on PVE.
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nogold.org....
You're totally ignoring the fact that it's more fun to group up with other people and play than play by yourself. What I question is why people come to MMORPGs looking for PvP when there are tons of FPSers and other games where you can kill other players. There is NO rpg in PvP!
Edit: And not just that...but there is FAR FAR less skill in killing someone in an mmorpg than there is in an FPS...so I question whether the people who want to pvp in mmorpgs could even cut it in an FPS
You're totally ignoring the fact that it's more fun to group up with other people and play than play by yourself. What I question is why people come to MMORPGs looking for PvP when there are tons of FPSers and other games where you can kill other players. There is NO rpg in PvP!
Edit: And not just that...but there is FAR FAR less skill in killing someone in an mmorpg than there is in an FPS...so I question whether the people who want to pvp in mmorpgs could even cut it in an FPS
I totally agree with this. I'm pretty sure mmorpgs roots are in story lines, community, and role play. PvP sure helps the game, but I dont think it's necessary for the largest part of the MMORPG community.
When I think of MMORPG's I think of being immersed in something where you can leave behind the normal world, kind of like a good story, or book, but you can change it. Not pwn1ng li3k a 1337 h4xx0r.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of open pvp, but I dont think it's being done quite right. If you kill another player. Guards should attack on site. If you kill two players guards should hunt you. And I think things should get progressively worse. If active PK players want to make it hard on the players around them, I think the world around the PKers should get tougher and tougher on them. It should start to get as bad as them being actively hunted and shunned from all towns. Maybe even have huge bounties. That'd be awesome, would give an awesome renegade type feeling to those players, a feeling of importance in the world.
I think expanding on the PvP/PK aspect of a game would only enhance the Role Playing experiance of a game. The problem here I think are the consequences aren't preportional . A Role Player and a Casual Player shouldn't have to live in fear of losing months (in the way of they have to work months for what a hard core player works weeks for) of progress cause a PKer is playing the game the way they want to.
_________________________
[Old] My City of Heroes Detailed Update List
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/450/loadthread/44836/setstart/1/loadclass/143
[OLD] - My Open Beta List and Review http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/584/loadthread/34685/setstart/1/loadclass/35
A good MMORPG should include a good PvP system. One with some benefits but much greater risks. It makes the world that much more alive and thus that much more immersive. It's hard for me to get into a world where my only goal is seemingly to beat back the never ending spawn of monsters in hopes I get prettier armor. I want to be able to change the scope of the land and the only way this is really possible is via PvP.
Hmm...that makes sense...the world only comes alive...when you can kill other people...
Really, I think it's the developers job to make an immersive world that feels alive...and that shouldn't have to involve having someone 10 levels higher than you come up and sneak attack you from behind...shouting "eat adamantine n00b".
You are kinda missing the point. MMORPG stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. No where in there does it say PvP. The point of these games is you get to interact with lots of people however you want to. Whether is for grouped combat, crafting, guild building, PvP or whatever you enjoy.....They are about open ended choice of play style with lots of other people.
I must stay I like the idea of Intricate system of PvP and the idea of killing someone and the guard come after you...kill two and the guards hunt you. That is an amazing idea and would love to see a game this incorporates that aspect in to the world. But if you get nothing, no reward, for Pk or PvP.What is the whole point of such things?
To and beyond all time I stand, Unweavering and Unbreakable to all those who withstand judgement from this world or the next. To this , I hold you in my soul.
*grins* just for fun
To and beyond all time I stand, Unweavering and Unbreakable to all those who withstand judgement from this world or the next. To this , I hold you in my soul.
so? go play baldurs gate on a lan. i've done it, and it is quite fun. and you can even play with a direct internet connection. no need to be on the same local network. you have an incredible storyline where you actually mean something, you are the hero, the world's most famous fighter, you can choose your way, either be good or bad, and you can even kill some chickens.
you also have diablo, dungeon siege, and if you only care about playing solo, then you have morrowind.
but then, what problem do you have with people that want to really role play their characters? how is a thief going to role play if he cant steal whoever he wants? how is a pirate going to roleplay if he can not kidnap and ask for ransom? how is an evil fighter going to roleplay if he can not fight everybody?
know that some people not only want a single game played with a lot of people, some of us want a virtual world, as complete and realistic as it can be. and that must feature pvp. and pvp loot, and not insta-travel, or else the economy would crash. and, of course, it must have pve, but not only.
about fps... of course there is more skill on killing someone on a fps than on rpg. yes, it is true. but dont you think there is more skill on killing Chun-Li on SFII than killing any mob on any rpg? in the end, most rpgs are point and click. you want skill, go play Tekken, or PES, or chess, or Far Cry, or Tetris. rpgs are not about skill, they are about your character's skill!!!!!
anyway, i dont know why people like to mourn about pvp when there are so many mmorpgs these days that dont have pvp, or have a dull pvp without any risk whatsoever. you dont want people stealing your items? dont play EVE, or UO. you want to pvp without incentive? play WOW or Guild Wars. Only pve? morrowind or EQ2. there is plenty of options for everybody, so just play whatever suits you well and do not try to spoil any game you dont think is a good rpg.
how is a thief going to role play if he cant steal whoever he wants? how is a pirate going to roleplay if he can not kidnap and ask for ransom? how is an evil fighter going to roleplay if he can not fight everybody?
I forgot about these old desires. I always felt the true "rogue" class has never really been done in any MMORPG aside from UO. In almost all games they are simply a specialized attack form. (stealth with a backstab attack) I would love to be able to pick someones pocket! The hold someone for ransom, if it was a player would be almost impossible to do. That would mean all but seizing control of another player. What would prevent log out? Good idea for NPC's though!
know that some people not only want a single game played with a lot of people, some of us want a virtual world, as complete and realistic as it can be. and that must feature pvp. and pvp loot, and not insta-travel, or else the economy would crash. and, of course, it must have pve, but not only.
A complete MMORPG needs a balance of all these things. Insta - travel is for people who have no desire to RP. People who perfer to jump straight into the action. Yes travel can be a drag but it does serve a purpose. Its called emersion in the game world. The balance is difficult, to much and you bog the game down to a snails pace and loose the more casual people, to little and you loose the RP aspect and the game becomes a fantasy "shooter".
about fps... of course there is more skill on killing someone on a fps than on rpg. yes, it is true. but dont you think there is more skill on killing Chun-Li on SFII than killing any mob on any rpg? in the end, most rpgs are point and click. you want skill, go play Tekken, or PES, or chess, or Far Cry, or Tetris. rpgs are not about skill, they are about your character's skill!!!!!
I never really looked at it this way......I alway had the opinion that MMORPGs really did not do PvP very well because they are to influenced by equipment and levels and not player skill. Interesting point.
www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project
They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safetey deserve neither. -- Ben Franklin
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. -- Milton Berle
Fact of the matter is, PvE can survive on its own, wereas a PvP only game could never exist.
And allthough I think PvP should be there, for me it have always been a very minor part of the whole experience.
"Why play these games if you do not PvP?", is a common question and I am not going to say what I think this says about the poster but:
Why PvP in mmorpg's if you do not suck at FPS's?
Try to answer that one, spend a couple of hours, or days if needed on that answer and then ask the original question again?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I think MMORPG's are definately at a point where players shouldn't have to pick anymore. If a company comes along that's been around MMORPG's they dont have to ask themselves "Do we want our game to be strong PvE or PvP oriented?" they can ask "How do we want our game to be the best all around?". It's retarded to think that normal player like us can come up with these great ideas (and I know for a fact that alot of them are easier than one would think to implement, even a simplified version of these) and people that get paid to think of ideas aren't considering. I swear I could turn out "revelutionary" ideas out all day for $9 an hour if I got picked up.
My point is I dont think we should have to choose anymore.
_________________________
[Old] My City of Heroes Detailed Update List
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/450/loadthread/44836/setstart/1/loadclass/143
[OLD] - My Open Beta List and Review http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/584/loadthread/34685/setstart/1/loadclass/35
These are indeed the three hot topic differences in mmorpgs.
1. PvP vs. PvE
An rpg in it's concept is indeed much less focused on pvp concepts and killing others. This is where the imbalance between "griefers" and "carebears" came from. A hero generally gets "punished" for killing low level mobs by acquiring insufficient experience and will leave them to the side fighting tougher mobs gradually as he goes up in strength. A PK'er simply has no rewards or punishments other then the feeling of "winning" or "loosing" a fight.
You could call in common courtesy in a point against the griefers, but with the psychological attitude of the average kid in puberty sitting there to kill the noobs that roam in their area I doubt that would work. (note that there are always exceptions, and all attempts are not in vain)
Of course "rogue" roleplay would be benefitted by a system of rewards and punishments in killing other players. The problem however is that due to the existing imbalances in numbers of players wishing to play an "evil" role vs. players wishing to play a "good" role the path of the evil type characters is doomed unless some form of acceptable punishment system is found. (law and order principle)
2. Solo vs. Team and Casual vs Hardcore
I don't see a trouble in implementing both ways in any mmog. Those playing solo just have to accept that there are benefits to to grouping as there are benefits to spending more hours per day on any game.
The multiplayer concept has always included the idea of working together/working against eachother. If there was nothing "extra" to playing with multiple people we'ld still all be playing single player games. The working together or against eachother works in game politics and economics as well, it should not be restricted to fighting when you talk about it. Limiting the choices in an rpg style is never wise. If you choose not to take part in one of the branches of multiplayer game, that is missing out on a part of the gameplay. Noone should however be forcing you to take part in it, or you should not be complaining about it being available to others. Those are your choices of gameplay.
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Could you name some of these games? I am no expert by any stretch knowing possibly 1% of the games out there, but I cannot think of one.
You appear to have missed one of my points in my original post (quite understandable as I got rather long winded in it), so here it is again.
Playing some unchanging, vacant desktop game does not cut it. No matter how many times I played Baldur's Gate, it was always the same. Ever try holding a real conversation with you party members? Never tried BG in a LAN party.- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What is it with people wanting to abuse others in a game? I will quit quickly if *my* playtime is adversely affected by otherrs. I have no desire to be someone elses plaything. And that is exactly what I am in a PvP environment.
Is there NO other outlet, NO other game that people who have this basic need to release said need?
(I just posted another reply, so my apologies if this gets posted right after my other post.)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR