Originally posted by AlBQuirky Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers? Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's? If so you are " them"If not you are part of the rest of us.
You believe the fallacy that all MMO players want the same thing, and thus fit nicely under one all-encompassing category or term.
I cannot imagine MMO companies producing something that nobody likes to play, so logically, your blame goes squarely on the gamers who buy and play these new MMOs, wouldn't you agree?
Or do you believe that MMO players buy and play crap they despise playing, hating every moment of it?
What was the point of the poll again?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?
Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
If so you are " them"
If not you are part of the rest of us.
You believe the fallacy that all MMO players want the same thing, and thus fit nicely under one all-encompassing category or term.
I cannot imagine MMO companies producing something that nobody likes to play, so logically, your blame goes squarely on the gamers who buy and play these new MMOs, wouldn't you agree?
Or do you believe that MMO players buy and play crap they despise playing, hating every moment of it?
What was the point of the poll again?
Do you mean to tell me that never have you heard of bandwagon gamers jumping on the latest hyped title only to find it was shit?
Then those same gamers bitching relentlessly about how crap it is while saying I'll give it a month even though it's a crap product.
You have never ever heard of such people doing that? Are you new to Mmorpg's?
Originally posted by Axehandle Do you mean to tell me that never have you heard of bandwagon gamers jumping on the latest hyped title only to find it was shit?
Of course I have heard of the bandwagon crowd. Is it the gamers (us) fault for that, or the companies (them)?
Who are you trying to blame here?
As far as I know, the companies (them) are not holding a gun to anyone's head. Can you tell me how the companies are at fault here?
It seems like simple business 101 here. Make a product consumers want and you do OK. Seems to me like the products being created in the MMO market today seem to be making profits for their companies. That tells me that the consumers desire that product. Do you dispute this?
Remember, this has nothing to do with what you or I or any individual think or feel. It is about the industry as a whole. Despite the fact that I don't like many games being released does not equate to the companies making garbage. There are millions of players enjoying these games I do not like. I'm just not in the "in crowd"... not that I ever was
Is this the companies fault for making games that *I* may not enjoy? No. It is the fault of the millions of players that enjoy things I don't happen to enjoy.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
F2P browsers (cant call them customers if they never pay) add nothing to a community. What do free players add to a game? People asking questions in chat? Extra bodies wandering around in the shell of a game that died after trying to be P2P?
1) Content. In pvp games, the paid customers need player to kill, and more the better. You think the PS2 battle will that that big if there are no free players?
2) Hope or opportunity. The devs are hoping like hell to convert the free players to paying ones. They are not successful in converting all of them, but certainly some.
The problem with many of the viewpoints here is that many of us are the pioneers of the genre. And as pioneers we blazed that trail to make way for everyone else whether we wanted to or not. Our numbers were small then and they didn't grow by much, we have just gotten older. But the viewpoints here are trying to liken us as dictators or a small group of old men trying to cling to power we really never had. Those that continue to remain ever vigilant are referred to as the vocal minority. And they are just like penguins on the tip of a iceberg. And like all icebergs, ships are only concerned with the huge mass below the surface, they could care less about the penguins making a fuss on the top.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I didn't take the poll because it's based on a premise I disagree with. I'm one of the few people that am amazed at the amount of variety and choice gamers have nowadays. It's a great time to be a gamer.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I didn't take the poll because it's based on a premise I disagree with. I'm one of the few people that am amazed at the amount of variety and choice gamers have nowadays. It's a great time to be a gamer.
Oneof the few here that feels that way. In the real world, you're part of the majority.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The issues are mostly on the corporate side. Companies want to make big money just like Blizzard. However, everyone fails to understand that will never happen again. WoW was a game released in the perfect place and the perfect time with the perfect forumla for the time. People want something new and freash, but developers are only putting out more of the same stuff. It's only a matter of time before a small company gets smart and spends the time to develope a completely open world where the players drive everything. When a company figures that out they will be the new king of the mountain in the MMO community. There are some signs of this. Dynamic events, crafting systems are slowly beginning to become a big more than "get this and put it in this slot and push the 'complete' button". It'll come with time.
I know this delves into the theme park vs sandbox debate, but it's true. The more control you give to the players the more the game will flourish. SWG was a perfect example of how things go. Purely players driven economy and small theme park events within the game (only to be ruined by a change from sandbox to themepark [nobody can argue the numbers with that game]). I think the best game is yet to come and it will be 75% sandbox and 25% themepark. An open world driven by players with long quests or a line of quest series' that yeild cool rewards. Something a casual person can play and enjoy as well as the hardcore.
The freemarket will adapt when players decide to stop playing the lame titles. This has already begun. People play games for a short while and then bug out for another game which was hyped up as well. Sooner or later a company will inovate and create then next big MMO.
Is it the players or the developers? I say it's the companies who control the developers taking a majority of the blame (if there is "blame" to be had here) and a small part of it goes to the players who are becoming more difficult to please.
Sorry folks to burst so many bubbles as who's to blame.. but MOST of the fault falls with the customers and community.. Business are in the business of making a profit.. They will ONLY do so if customers buy their products and service.. Walmart is a perfect example.. Walmart would not be as big as they are, or profiitable if people didn't support them by buying everything from them.. We the consumer have the power to change companies and their policies.. The gaming industry is no different, as we buy their crap because most of the customers demand it, or settle for it.. If you want change, then STOP giving the companies money.. It really is that simple.. VOTE with your wallet.. Make your demands, and if the company doesn't give you what you want, just stop buying from them..
The simpliest economics formula is Supply and Demand.... They wouldn't supply us, if we didnt' demand it.. Bulk of the MMORPG problems are OUR fault, not the companies.. Granted there are areas where a dev team takes liberties, such as SWTOR and their 4th pillar that failed.. BUT in general it was the community that cried for and asked for "new" themepark crap, and that is exactly what we got.. As the saying goes, careful what you ask for, cause you just might get it.. and we got it.. I view devs as the evil genies that give you exactly what you asked for, in a perverted way.. Remember the joke of the man asking the genie why he has 1,000 deer in his back yard? The genie replies with, "you asked for 1,000 bucks"..
This of course is my opinion, but I fail to see how it could be "us". People aren't sticking with the games because they don't like them. Everyone can have their own opinion as to why. They could say it is because devs are lazy, maybe the publishers are pushing them too hard or only focusing on low investment high profit returns... list goes on and on. I personaly think its the whole "me too" thing going on. A company sees a success and wants to mimic it. It's kind of like those no name pops that try to mimic the big guys. They aren't there to take away the business of coke or pepsi, but they want their peice of the pie. They offer it at a cheaper price and even copy the branding some. But we still know its second tier stuff.
I guess we are just tired of drinking their crap but for some reason Coca Cola and Pepsi are no longer an option.
Sorry folks to burst so many bubbles as who's to blame.. but MOST of the fault falls with the customers and community.. Business are in the business of making a profit.. They will ONLY do so if customers buy their products and service.. Walmart is a perfect example.. Walmart would not be as big as they are, or profiitable if people didn't support them by buying everything from them.. We the consumer have the power to change companies and their policies.. The gaming industry is no different, as we buy their crap because most of the customers demand it, or settle for it.. If you want change, then STOP giving the companies money.. It really is that simple.. VOTE with your wallet.. Make your demands, and if the company doesn't give you what you want, just stop buying from them..
The simpliest economics formula is Supply and Demand.... They wouldn't supply us, if we didnt' demand it.. Bulk of the MMORPG problems are OUR fault, not the companies.. Granted there are areas where a dev team takes liberties, such as SWTOR and their 4th pillar that failed.. BUT in general it was the community that cried for and asked for "new" themepark crap, and that is exactly what we got.. As the saying goes, careful what you ask for, cause you just might get it.. and we got it.. I view devs as the evil genies that give you exactly what you asked for, in a perverted way.. Remember the joke of the man asking the genie why he has 1,000 deer in his back yard? The genie replies with, "you asked for 1,000 bucks"..
I agree with you to some extent. Gamers asked for no grind, so MMO's totally went in the opposite direction of grind and gave us everything without us having to try. They asked for no death penalty, so they gave us no death penalty. They asked for no open PvP, so now not only do we not have open PvP, we don't even have proper PvP. Instead its an added on game mechanic now that typically is separate from the rest of the game (different class of armour, totally separate and instanced zones).
But in my opinion, I still think its the developers/producers fault. It's nice when they listen to customers (which they stopped doing for the last while now), but that doesn't mean they don't have to innovate or create something truly dynamic. We aren't here to tell them how to do their jobs from start to finish. If they are just going to copy the same type of MMO over and over again and just change the theme, I see no one else to blame but them.
First off, they are companies and they need to make money. Just as you would want your company to make smart decisions on their product roadmap or evolution of services, game companies need to do that as well.
It's very easy to say "hey, you need to innovate" but one wrong move and people are out of a job.
So what do companies do? They see a formula that players clearly want and they try to fit that formula but put their own spin on it.
It's important to note that just because people on this site (or any other site) are clamoring for "sandbox this" and "open world that" and "we want a game to last for years" not everyone shares these mantras.
However, sometimes developers get caught up "developing" and forget that maybe what they are develping might not fit into what players want (TSW) or might not be something they can sustain (SWToR).
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This of course is my opinion, but I fail to see how it could be "us". People aren't sticking with the games that they preorder by the millions because they don't like them. Everyone can have their own opinion as to why. They could say it is because devs are lazy, maybe the publishers are pushing them too hard or only focusing on low investment high profit returns... list goes on and on. I personaly think its the whole "me too" thing going on. A company sees a success and wants to mimic it, because if it was successful that means a good number of players liked it enough to pay for it. It's kind of like those no name pops that try to mimic the big guys. They aren't there to take away the business of coke or pepsi, but they want their peice of the pie. They offer it at a cheaper price and even copy the branding some. But we still know its second tier stuff.
I guess we are just tired of drinking their crap but for some reason Coca Cola and Pepsi are no longer an option.
Coke and Pepsi are still a big option for many, just not you.
If we were talking about utilities or necessities I could maybe perhaps somehow see some validity to that view of yours, but to say it isn't the consumers driving the direction of the entertainment that is being created just isn't logical, especially when the contention is also that companies are lazy or greedy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I guess we have only few real games, other are just clones made to push you to spend money. Fast made crap, where you buy might from item shop by spending incredible amount of real cash and you get nothing much in return.
I think we need some real new projects which will gonna break this WoW-like circle. GW2 is the one very original game, although it seems a little boring for me.
But here again, some of us need game for fun and others need to have hard challenge from it.
May be correct answer would be to make 2 type of games (or even 4 if we can be PvE or PvP oriented).
IMO game trying to get all at same pack, I mean fun, challenge, PvE and PvP, gonna fail, as it not be able to satisfy all gamers.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Comments
I cannot imagine MMO companies producing something that nobody likes to play, so logically, your blame goes squarely on the gamers who buy and play these new MMOs, wouldn't you agree?
Or do you believe that MMO players buy and play crap they despise playing, hating every moment of it?
What was the point of the poll again?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Do you mean to tell me that never have you heard of bandwagon gamers jumping on the latest hyped title only to find it was shit?
Then those same gamers bitching relentlessly about how crap it is while saying I'll give it a month even though it's a crap product.
You have never ever heard of such people doing that? Are you new to Mmorpg's?
Express your opinion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371172/Poll-Most-hated-MMORPG.html
Who are you trying to blame here?
As far as I know, the companies (them) are not holding a gun to anyone's head. Can you tell me how the companies are at fault here?
It seems like simple business 101 here. Make a product consumers want and you do OK. Seems to me like the products being created in the MMO market today seem to be making profits for their companies. That tells me that the consumers desire that product. Do you dispute this?
Remember, this has nothing to do with what you or I or any individual think or feel. It is about the industry as a whole. Despite the fact that I don't like many games being released does not equate to the companies making garbage. There are millions of players enjoying these games I do not like. I'm just not in the "in crowd"... not that I ever was
Is this the companies fault for making games that *I* may not enjoy? No. It is the fault of the millions of players that enjoy things I don't happen to enjoy.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Us
But what the results shows is how bad mmorpg.com community is
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
1) Content. In pvp games, the paid customers need player to kill, and more the better. You think the PS2 battle will that that big if there are no free players?
2) Hope or opportunity. The devs are hoping like hell to convert the free players to paying ones. They are not successful in converting all of them, but certainly some.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Them .. i want to thank them for all the fun games i have been, am, and will be playing.
'Crap' for who?
There is a playerbase that is perfectly happy to pay for the games coming out.
$$$ generated in the MMO space keeps on growing which suggests that playerbase is the majority.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I didn't take the poll because it's based on a premise I disagree with. I'm one of the few people that am amazed at the amount of variety and choice gamers have nowadays. It's a great time to be a gamer.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Oneof the few here that feels that way. In the real world, you're part of the majority.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The issues are mostly on the corporate side. Companies want to make big money just like Blizzard. However, everyone fails to understand that will never happen again. WoW was a game released in the perfect place and the perfect time with the perfect forumla for the time. People want something new and freash, but developers are only putting out more of the same stuff. It's only a matter of time before a small company gets smart and spends the time to develope a completely open world where the players drive everything. When a company figures that out they will be the new king of the mountain in the MMO community. There are some signs of this. Dynamic events, crafting systems are slowly beginning to become a big more than "get this and put it in this slot and push the 'complete' button". It'll come with time.
I know this delves into the theme park vs sandbox debate, but it's true. The more control you give to the players the more the game will flourish. SWG was a perfect example of how things go. Purely players driven economy and small theme park events within the game (only to be ruined by a change from sandbox to themepark [nobody can argue the numbers with that game]). I think the best game is yet to come and it will be 75% sandbox and 25% themepark. An open world driven by players with long quests or a line of quest series' that yeild cool rewards. Something a casual person can play and enjoy as well as the hardcore.
The freemarket will adapt when players decide to stop playing the lame titles. This has already begun. People play games for a short while and then bug out for another game which was hyped up as well. Sooner or later a company will inovate and create then next big MMO.
Is it the players or the developers? I say it's the companies who control the developers taking a majority of the blame (if there is "blame" to be had here) and a small part of it goes to the players who are becoming more difficult to please.
Sorry folks to burst so many bubbles as who's to blame.. but MOST of the fault falls with the customers and community.. Business are in the business of making a profit.. They will ONLY do so if customers buy their products and service.. Walmart is a perfect example.. Walmart would not be as big as they are, or profiitable if people didn't support them by buying everything from them.. We the consumer have the power to change companies and their policies.. The gaming industry is no different, as we buy their crap because most of the customers demand it, or settle for it.. If you want change, then STOP giving the companies money.. It really is that simple.. VOTE with your wallet.. Make your demands, and if the company doesn't give you what you want, just stop buying from them..
The simpliest economics formula is Supply and Demand.... They wouldn't supply us, if we didnt' demand it.. Bulk of the MMORPG problems are OUR fault, not the companies.. Granted there are areas where a dev team takes liberties, such as SWTOR and their 4th pillar that failed.. BUT in general it was the community that cried for and asked for "new" themepark crap, and that is exactly what we got.. As the saying goes, careful what you ask for, cause you just might get it.. and we got it.. I view devs as the evil genies that give you exactly what you asked for, in a perverted way.. Remember the joke of the man asking the genie why he has 1,000 deer in his back yard? The genie replies with, "you asked for 1,000 bucks"..
This of course is my opinion, but I fail to see how it could be "us". People aren't sticking with the games because they don't like them. Everyone can have their own opinion as to why. They could say it is because devs are lazy, maybe the publishers are pushing them too hard or only focusing on low investment high profit returns... list goes on and on. I personaly think its the whole "me too" thing going on. A company sees a success and wants to mimic it. It's kind of like those no name pops that try to mimic the big guys. They aren't there to take away the business of coke or pepsi, but they want their peice of the pie. They offer it at a cheaper price and even copy the branding some. But we still know its second tier stuff.
I guess we are just tired of drinking their crap but for some reason Coca Cola and Pepsi are no longer an option.
I agree with you to some extent. Gamers asked for no grind, so MMO's totally went in the opposite direction of grind and gave us everything without us having to try. They asked for no death penalty, so they gave us no death penalty. They asked for no open PvP, so now not only do we not have open PvP, we don't even have proper PvP. Instead its an added on game mechanic now that typically is separate from the rest of the game (different class of armour, totally separate and instanced zones).
But in my opinion, I still think its the developers/producers fault. It's nice when they listen to customers (which they stopped doing for the last while now), but that doesn't mean they don't have to innovate or create something truly dynamic. We aren't here to tell them how to do their jobs from start to finish. If they are just going to copy the same type of MMO over and over again and just change the theme, I see no one else to blame but them.
I say it's both sides.
First off, they are companies and they need to make money. Just as you would want your company to make smart decisions on their product roadmap or evolution of services, game companies need to do that as well.
It's very easy to say "hey, you need to innovate" but one wrong move and people are out of a job.
So what do companies do? They see a formula that players clearly want and they try to fit that formula but put their own spin on it.
It's important to note that just because people on this site (or any other site) are clamoring for "sandbox this" and "open world that" and "we want a game to last for years" not everyone shares these mantras.
However, sometimes developers get caught up "developing" and forget that maybe what they are develping might not fit into what players want (TSW) or might not be something they can sustain (SWToR).
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Coke and Pepsi are still a big option for many, just not you.
If we were talking about utilities or necessities I could maybe perhaps somehow see some validity to that view of yours, but to say it isn't the consumers driving the direction of the entertainment that is being created just isn't logical, especially when the contention is also that companies are lazy or greedy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I guess we have only few real games, other are just clones made to push you to spend money.
Fast made crap, where you buy might from item shop by spending incredible amount of real cash and you get nothing much in return.
I think we need some real new projects which will gonna break this WoW-like circle.
GW2 is the one very original game, although it seems a little boring for me.
But here again, some of us need game for fun and others need to have hard challenge from it.
May be correct answer would be to make 2 type of games (or even 4 if we can be PvE or PvP oriented).
IMO game trying to get all at same pack, I mean fun, challenge, PvE and PvP, gonna fail, as it not be able to satisfy all gamers.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2