Originally posted by Tjed Originally posted by VengeSunsoarWe do like to interact with people which is why we play MMO's, I don't want to group most of the time.When I play I want to relax, I don't want to depend on someone else and I don't want them to depend on me. However I do want to interact.
I do want to group most of the time. There are a lot of people that miss this and would like to have a new game to play that works like this.
We don't have to agree on this. In fact, it's fine to have different opinions and in a perfect world we would both have great games to choose from.
The issue right now is that most all new games coming out are being built on a solo to level cap (quickly) platform. The genre is heavily swayed in that direction. You have your pick of AAA games, and more on the horizon. This is your golden age.
Enjoy it
I'm not big on organized grouping myself. I'm not against it, but I prefer spontaneous group activities to organized ones. However, it is cool to have people out in the world, even if it means the stuff you do it repeated by a large number of people. This is one advantage that MMOs have over single player and even multiplayer games. There are other people running around out in the world, even if you're not talking to them or grouping with them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not big on organized grouping myself. I'm not against it, but I prefer spontaneous group activities to organized ones. However, it is cool to have people out in the world, even if it means the stuff you do it repeated by a large number of people. This is one advantage that MMOs have over single player and even multiplayer games. There are other people running around out in the world, even if you're not talking to them or grouping with them.
Why would you care if there are people running around if they don't interact with you? And much of MMO gameplay is in instances anyway.
I don't think MMO has any advantage over other online games. It is just a slightly different flavor, like the lobby in WOW is 3D, instead of a menu like in D3.
We do like to interact with people which is why we play MMO's, I don't want to group most of the time.
When I play I want to relax, I don't want to depend on someone else and I don't want them to depend on me. However I do want to interact.
I do want to group most of the time. There are a lot of people that miss this and would like to have a new game to play that works like this.
We don't have to agree on this. In fact, it's fine to have different opinions and in a perfect world we would both have great games to choose from.
The issue right now is that most all new games coming out are being built on a solo to level cap (quickly) platform. The genre is heavily swayed in that direction. You have your pick of AAA games, and more on the horizon. This is your golden age.
Enjoy it
I am. But at the same time, how is it not the golden age of grouping? You go into WOW, or any of the themepark MMOs, hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min.
Don't tell me that is not grouping, or that is not "interactions" with people.
Sure it is, and again, I'm not trying to take anything away from your enjoyment of the current status quo. Let me just type out a scenario that might describe the difference better than a description of the mechanics.
You're solo questing around the outside of a very large non instanced dungeon. You know that if you go inside, you can't handle the mobs and so, you stay outside getting quest updates and maybe harvesting while you explore the outside of this huge structure. Eventually you get into trouble, you get some adds, some respawns and you're about to die. (this would suck by the way because you would have a harsh penalty for death) While you're contemplating fight or flight, you start to get healed, you get a damage shield put on you. Before you know it, you're thanking the player that happend along and decided to help you out. You make introductions and decide that between the two of you, you can now take on some of the easier mobs inside the dungeon. You start to explore around inside and meet up with another small group and by the end of the night, you've added people to your friends list, you've got plans to group up the next night, maybe joined a guild, who knows.
The point is, that many of us really enjoyed these types of situations. That is what is being replaced by, "hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min." I know it doesn't happen often, but it used to happen to me all the time. I won't tell you that what you do is not grouping, it is. I won't tell you that it is not an interaction with other players, it is. It is a different kind of interaction and a different kind of grouping. I believe that the general MMORPG fan base is large and diverse enough to support both types of games.
I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.
Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.
That part is interesting. GMs at that time we're probably closer to DMs (dongeon masters in D&D). The DM is the one that decide what happens and what's going on.
Today, there is the whole problem of being fair, of having to find good GMs and having to serve so many people. It's also a problem of complexity, because we rely less on imagination and more on visuals and mechanics.
Sure it is, and again, I'm not trying to take anything away from your enjoyment of the current status quo. Let me just type out a scenario that might describe the difference better than a description of the mechanics.
You're solo questing around the outside of a very large non instanced dungeon. You know that if you go inside, you can't handle the mobs and so, you stay outside getting quest updates and maybe harvesting while you explore the outside of this huge structure. Eventually you get into trouble, you get some adds, some respawns and you're about to die. (this would suck by the way because you would have a harsh penalty for death) While you're contemplating fight or flight, you start to get healed, you get a damage shield put on you. Before you know it, you're thanking the player that happend along and decided to help you out. You make introductions and decide that between the two of you, you can now take on some of the easier mobs inside the dungeon. You start to explore around inside and meet up with another small group and by the end of the night, you've added people to your friends list, you've got plans to group up the next night, maybe joined a guild, who knows.
The point is, that many of us really enjoyed these types of situations. That is what is being replaced by, "hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min." I know it doesn't happen often, but it used to happen to me all the time. I won't tell you that what you do is not grouping, it is. I won't tell you that it is not an interaction with other players, it is. It is a different kind of interaction and a different kind of grouping. I believe that the general MMORPG fan base is large and diverse enough to support both types of games.
The situation you described .. happened to me in WOW. In fact, that is how i got into the first guild in WOW. However, i don't see it much more fun than hitting a button and do a dungeon, or looking over a guild website and decide to join them. Or better yet, just join whatever guild in advertising in a city and decide if i want to leave later.
And btw, 90% of the time, in your situation, you will just die. Do you want to count on your fun happening 1 in 10? I don't.
Sure it is, and again, I'm not trying to take anything away from your enjoyment of the current status quo. Let me just type out a scenario that might describe the difference better than a description of the mechanics.
You're solo questing around the outside of a very large non instanced dungeon. You know that if you go inside, you can't handle the mobs and so, you stay outside getting quest updates and maybe harvesting while you explore the outside of this huge structure. Eventually you get into trouble, you get some adds, some respawns and you're about to die. (this would suck by the way because you would have a harsh penalty for death) While you're contemplating fight or flight, you start to get healed, you get a damage shield put on you. Before you know it, you're thanking the player that happend along and decided to help you out. You make introductions and decide that between the two of you, you can now take on some of the easier mobs inside the dungeon. You start to explore around inside and meet up with another small group and by the end of the night, you've added people to your friends list, you've got plans to group up the next night, maybe joined a guild, who knows.
The point is, that many of us really enjoyed these types of situations. That is what is being replaced by, "hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min." I know it doesn't happen often, but it used to happen to me all the time. I won't tell you that what you do is not grouping, it is. I won't tell you that it is not an interaction with other players, it is. It is a different kind of interaction and a different kind of grouping. I believe that the general MMORPG fan base is large and diverse enough to support both types of games.
The situation you described .. happened to me in WOW. In fact, that is how i got into the first guild in WOW. However, i don't see it much more fun than hitting a button and do a dungeon, or looking over a guild website and decide to join them. Or better yet, just join whatever guild in advertising in a city and decide if i want to leave later.
And btw, 90% of the time, in your situation, you will just die. Do you want to count on your fun happening 1 in 10? I don't.
Well, then we clearly disagree and have boiled it down to a difference of preferances. That's cool with me. I hope you have a blast with what ya got and I hope something for me comes along sooner or later.
I also played in those times and think most of you are looking at them through rose coloured glasses. There were just as many (percentage wise not absolutely obviously) people looking to race to the end as there were today. Powerleveling was very common. There were still people talking crap about people at the Bazaar (in EQ anyway). Whether it was about the journey or what to do at the end was always a debate and people were talking about it back then as well.
There were name changes. People were jerks just as much back then as today. It is a myth that your name was important. People were jerks and yet they still got invited to groups and had great loot. Very few people had black lists, only some individuals. Very few people recognized more than a couple dozen people on their server. Most people in SWG in my opinion did not know more than a couple dozen people and had no idea who the big names on ther server were. Names meant just as little than as they do now.
People were trash talking each other and calling each noobs way back in 2000. This is not new at all.
Of course there was always power levelers and trash talkers... but there is a massive difference between the average ass hat in a game like SWG and WOW which has a population that seems to consist 90% of people with Asperger Syndrom.
Your SWG experiance sounds quite sad, I could walk into the cantina in Bestine and always see 20+ people I knew or were aquanited with, doctors healing... entertainers buffing... Rebals there to start crap with the empirals... ect, it was a living world.
Gather up your entourage of emipre friends and roll into anchorige... take over and in 5-15min the same names/faces as usual would show themselves to run us out of there home. No one there to fight? Assult a rebal base or roll into a rebal town and cause havok, making a whole new set of enemies. Next night we would see them rolling into our town.
Why did we do this? for Points? not much you could buy with points... we did it because it was fun and what made it fun was the community that fuled it.
You claim that it is rose color glasses but what I speak of and WOW's *sit in town and queue for the daily BG to fight people who you will propably never see again to buy an item with points so you can do it again* are completely different.
SWG was a flawed buggy ass game, we knew that then and know that now, what makes it great is not its polish but its ability to empower the community. Most modern games (minus eve) restrict the player tunneling people into instances and tools like LFG and Raid Finder.
Well, then we clearly disagree and have boiled it down to a difference of preferances. That's cool with me. I hope you have a blast with what ya got and I hope something for me comes along sooner or later.
Yes. It is always a difference in preference. There is certainly no "truth" or "should be" in game design.
However, there is also a matter of the popularity of preferences. If a preference is held only by a few, it won't sustain that game style financially.
WHat's bother me is not that mmo aren't world anymore, this is clearly a simple fact, even they are very few indy mmo they were build as world, H&H was one for exemple for the time it was stll somewhat popular (and they are other too). What bother me really is that so many team really try so hard to make it happen and fail miserably (mainstream or indy doens't really matter here, both are in the same bag here).
Originally posted by Aelious At least it's correctly labeled and sharing a RMT auction house doesn't count lol. Does it really matter? No but in the sake of arguing, which is what seems to happen when this comes up , the amount of "massive" is how many avatars can be at one place at one time. Not a virtual auction house or chat room. If that answer is four then I'm sorry, that isn't massive IMO which is based on my understanding of the term.
If that is the case, may MMO end games are not massive. Look at WOW. End game consists of arena/BG pvp. 5-man dungeon. 10/25 man raids, oh .. and solo dailies. Even during leveling, most are doing 5 man dungeons.
And in your definition, none of these is massive.
In fact, NONE of the pve MMO gameplay is massive .. except may be world boss .. which is not that popular and quite rare.
Tell me, in the perspective of being "massive", what is the difference between a 4 man key run in Diablo 3, and a 5-man heroic dungeon run in WOW (or any themepark MMOs)?
One person? . You're picking out certain activities when MMOs are bigger than that. It's not just about engame and here's the difference:
Thousands of people can be in Stormwind at the same time. That's "massive".
Well, before the servers crashed anyway. It's not a bad argument but it's really not the same. Your discounting a large part of the MMO experience: player cities, outposts and ... well all other places outside the "instant action" spots (dungeon zones, BGs, etc.). You know, the rest of the "world". It's why this OP thread is relevent really, there is more to an MMO than instant action. You may not care about that, a large portion of players may not care about that, but a lot of people still do. Even World of Warcraft, a game that you can sit in queues while you wait for an instanced group experience, has a world to run around in.
Any? WoW was one of the closest MMOs you have for your agrument due to queues for dungeons/BGs. What about Vanguard? It has a lot of open area dungeons/group content. There is an LFG system with an auto accept feature but you still have to get out to the area or dungeon you are grouping in. It's vastly different and is a great example of what a good "world" can do for an MMO. In fact, anyone here that agrees with the OP should try Vanguard out. It's probably the best example of what some here think the genre should have ended up like.
This is technically one of the things we argue against, that if everyone has his private dungeon, the game does not feel as a world if you dont (at least) meet the people in the world.
So it is kinda odd, to argue by stating the original problem.
Made an account to say this : since i've been banned numerous times for my classic mmo arguements.
Older MMo's Everquest UNTIL the 3rd and 4th expansions.... "fast travel was added etc etc. Item levels added . etc etc. And Daoc for Pvp . Than EQOA for PS2 . These were the old MMo's that I loved and my wife loved. Actually we Still love them. The others were kinda junk.... Let me ask you this modern mmo "the games evolved people" why do thousands of people play classic everquest servers, why is the population of eq mac getting higher and higher lately? The new games are crap. GW2 has great combat , but something is missing.. It's just not the same type of game it's an action based , play it till max level than on to the next game type genre now.
I can't take any more quest hubs , I have completed 5040593405983409 quests.... back in the days of everquest the quests only gave you factions or an item. You might be 1 of 10 people out of thousands that did that quest. Now a days EVERYONE does EVERY quest. No one is unique nothing gives a feel of adventure.
The differences of modern mmo's and post wow mmo's.:
1. Instances. give me dungeons filled with people please fighting for camps and rare named spawns with rare named loots. / dragons.
2. NO questing to level
3. Classes each with unique spells / skills . 8 skill bar making you decide which skills to use. 15+ classes all with a unique role / spells. tracking / mezing / healing / pets / tanking / aggroing / rooting / porting / hasting / pulling / etc etc etc.
3. TWINKING; nothing more fun than winning a sword off a dragon than giving it to your level 1 warrior.. It's a freaking game. lets us have fun twinking. When item levels were added to everquest I quit and Most people I know quit. Show me ONE mmo without level reqs. SO LAME>>>
OPEN DUNGEONS! RARE SPAWNS THAT TAKE WEEKS TO FIGURE OUT .
HUGE LOOT TABLES on the Rare spawns.
EXPING / KILling to LEVEL , no quest leveling . While you kill you have a chance at really rare drops.
NOONE LOOKED THE SAME , Now everyone is the EXACT SAME
NO fast travel , except for druid and wizard teleports + shaman or druid speedy shoes.!
I could write a 1000 page book on the subject but I'll leave it at this. Wow was fun for a few months. I just wish someone would make a classic mmo style game. I have hopes for EQN , but in my heart sony destroyed the best mmo ever made so i feel my hopes will be crushed again.
I don't agree with OP's version of MMO world. For me they were never a world and i have been playing MMOS since days of UO. Never felt that way and i still don't.
3. TWINKING; nothing more fun than winning a sword off a dragon than giving it to your level 1 warrior.. It's a freaking game. lets us have fun twinking. When item levels were added to everquest I quit and Most people I know quit. Show me ONE mmo without level reqs. SO LAME>>>
EVE only has skill requirements, but the best mods (Faction & Officers mods) have the same skill requirement as the Meta 0 basic equivalent. There are no level requirements. If you've trained hull upgrades II (A starting character can have this in about an hour IIRC) then you can use the best armor mods in the game.
3. TWINKING; nothing more fun than winning a sword off a dragon than giving it to your level 1 warrior.. It's a freaking game. lets us have fun twinking. When item levels were added to everquest I quit and Most people I know quit. Show me ONE mmo without level reqs. SO LAME>>>
EVE only has skill requirements, but the best mods (Faction & Officers mods) have the same skill requirement as the Meta 0 basic equivalent. There are no level requirements. If you've trained hull upgrades II (A starting character can have this in about an hour IIRC) then you can use the best armor mods in the game.
Twink away!
Oh cmon, Mal. You should know better. Skill requirements are essentially the same as level reqs, and used for the same purpose.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I also played in those times and think most of you are looking at them through rose coloured glasses. There were just as many (percentage wise not absolutely obviously) people looking to race to the end as there were today. Powerleveling was very common. There were still people talking crap about people at the Bazaar (in EQ anyway). Whether it was about the journey or what to do at the end was always a debate and people were talking about it back then as well.
There were name changes. People were jerks just as much back then as today. It is a myth that your name was important. People were jerks and yet they still got invited to groups and had great loot. Very few people had black lists, only some individuals. Very few people recognized more than a couple dozen people on their server. Most people in SWG in my opinion did not know more than a couple dozen people and had no idea who the big names on ther server were. Names meant just as little than as they do now.
People were trash talking each other and calling each noobs way back in 2000. This is not new at all.
"Rose colored glasses" God I hate cliche phrases.
I don't know what games you played but back in 1997-2000 people in Ultima Online were very much known by name or reputation. If you didn't know sombody's reputation you learned of it one way or another. My character was very much known as a vile pick pocket and a master boat thief. My other character was well regarded as a Grandmaster Smith. I know other characters that were well known murderers and highly regarded crafters for their ability to crank GM crafted gear. Most crafters were known by name since they had their maker's mark on it. Entire guilds and player towns were known by name and reputation. Some people play entire games with their head in their arse and don't participate in the community. If that is how they want to play then more power to them. Such behavior does not support your claim that such things don't exist.
This is especially true with murderers in a pvp game. You learn who to avoid within one or two deaths.
We do like to interact with people which is why we play MMO's, I don't want to group most of the time.
When I play I want to relax, I don't want to depend on someone else and I don't want them to depend on me. However I do want to interact.
I do want to group most of the time. There are a lot of people that miss this and would like to have a new game to play that works like this.
We don't have to agree on this. In fact, it's fine to have different opinions and in a perfect world we would both have great games to choose from.
The issue right now is that most all new games coming out are being built on a solo to level cap (quickly) platform. The genre is heavily swayed in that direction. You have your pick of AAA games, and more on the horizon. This is your golden age.
Enjoy it
I am. But at the same time, how is it not the golden age of grouping? You go into WOW, or any of the themepark MMOs, hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min.
Don't tell me that is not grouping, or that is not "interactions" with people.
Yeah I'll catagorically state it's not the golden age of grouping. Unless you consider grouping as getting with the next random bunch of boneheads you find who only care about you so long as it takes to complete whichever current quest you are on.
That is part of the advantage of the old style of gaming. You went out and met people. You learned about them, how they do things, maybe even a few things about them personally. People invested themselves in their social counterparts and actually cared to some extent what they did together.
Now? For all the social intereaction required for grouping in an mmo you might as well just have follower pets. The same result right? They don't speak, except maybe a few poorly worded grunts about which direction to go, and then you part ways when a particular quest is met.
The current grouping system and instanced battlegrounds go hand in hand with the lack of social characteristics in MMO's there days. The community is not strong. That isn't to say that some people don't associate and build bonds, but the vast majority of interactions are shallow and designed only to achieve a shiny reward.
Originally posted by Zalmon I don't agree with OP's version of MMO world. For me they were never a world and i have been playing MMOS since days of UO. Never felt that way and i still don't.
If your sombody who has played MMO's from across the whole spectrum then I respect your opinion. I would like to know why you have that opinion, but you've certainly got a right to feel that way. I can't imagine why you kept playing MMO's if none of them were particularly immersive or engaging.
What annoys me are the people who think WOW is the Alpha and Omega of MMO gaming and that full loot, sandbox, adveture based worlds are an abomination.
Yeah I'll catagorically state it's not the golden age of grouping. Unless you consider grouping as getting with the next random bunch of boneheads you find who only care about you so long as it takes to complete whichever current quest you are on.
Yes, exactly. Grouping *is* getting with some people .. random or not. That *is* the definition of grouping. And why do people group? To finish the dungeon run or quest, of course. If they want to social, they would be chatting, not killing stuff together.
That is part of the advantage of the old style of gaming. You went out and met people. You learned about them, how they do things, maybe even a few things about them personally. People invested themselves in their social counterparts and actually cared to some extent what they did together.
No. That is the disadvantge. You *have* to go out and meet people. That is easy ... if you want to make friend, join a social network. If i want to "invest" in online friends (which i don't .. i have enough rl ones), i would play FB, not MMOs.
Now? For all the social intereaction required for grouping in an mmo you might as well just have follower pets. The same result right? They don't speak, except maybe a few poorly worded grunts about which direction to go, and then you part ways when a particular quest is met.
Exactly. We DO have follower pets in some games .. but real humans are better ... have better AIs (most of the time).
The current grouping system and instanced battlegrounds go hand in hand with the lack of social characteristics in MMO's there days. The community is not strong. That isn't to say that some people don't associate and build bonds, but the vast majority of interactions are shallow and designed only to achieve a shiny reward.
Some people? I would say most people. I don't play games to associate and build bonds. And given how popular these sysstems are (heck the MOST popular online game is LOL .. a pure arena game), i would say yeah .. it is not about community .. it is about to be able to get into a game with other people (grouping or pvp), fast.
So yeah, it is the golden age. I remember when i was playing EQ .. you actually have to spend time chatting before gettting into a group .. much better gaming experiene now.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm not big on organized grouping myself. I'm not against it, but I prefer spontaneous group activities to organized ones. However, it is cool to have people out in the world, even if it means the stuff you do it repeated by a large number of people. This is one advantage that MMOs have over single player and even multiplayer games. There are other people running around out in the world, even if you're not talking to them or grouping with them.Why would you care if there are people running around if they don't interact with you? And much of MMO gameplay is in instances anyway.
I don't think MMO has any advantage over other online games. It is just a slightly different flavor, like the lobby in WOW is 3D, instead of a menu like in D3.
It's just cool. *shrug* Why would I even care why it's cool to have other people running around in the same virtual world I'm running around in? I make note of the fact that I like it and move on with enjoying it. There are other people who agree with me. I don't know how many, but I know they exist. This is something that single player and multiplayer games cannot offer.
This isn't the only difference between a game like WoW and a game like D3, but it's one of the differences. It's not the only reason someone might prefer to play WoW over playing D3, but it is one of the reasons. That's makes it an advantage. Though, I suppose it would more properly be described as appealing to a particular preference in game play than an advantage.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
We don't have to agree on this. In fact, it's fine to have different opinions and in a perfect world we would both have great games to choose from.
The issue right now is that most all new games coming out are being built on a solo to level cap (quickly) platform. The genre is heavily swayed in that direction. You have your pick of AAA games, and more on the horizon. This is your golden age.
Enjoy it
I'm not big on organized grouping myself. I'm not against it, but I prefer spontaneous group activities to organized ones. However, it is cool to have people out in the world, even if it means the stuff you do it repeated by a large number of people. This is one advantage that MMOs have over single player and even multiplayer games. There are other people running around out in the world, even if you're not talking to them or grouping with them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why would you care if there are people running around if they don't interact with you? And much of MMO gameplay is in instances anyway.
I don't think MMO has any advantage over other online games. It is just a slightly different flavor, like the lobby in WOW is 3D, instead of a menu like in D3.
Sure it is, and again, I'm not trying to take anything away from your enjoyment of the current status quo. Let me just type out a scenario that might describe the difference better than a description of the mechanics.
You're solo questing around the outside of a very large non instanced dungeon. You know that if you go inside, you can't handle the mobs and so, you stay outside getting quest updates and maybe harvesting while you explore the outside of this huge structure. Eventually you get into trouble, you get some adds, some respawns and you're about to die. (this would suck by the way because you would have a harsh penalty for death) While you're contemplating fight or flight, you start to get healed, you get a damage shield put on you. Before you know it, you're thanking the player that happend along and decided to help you out. You make introductions and decide that between the two of you, you can now take on some of the easier mobs inside the dungeon. You start to explore around inside and meet up with another small group and by the end of the night, you've added people to your friends list, you've got plans to group up the next night, maybe joined a guild, who knows.
The point is, that many of us really enjoyed these types of situations. That is what is being replaced by, "hit a button, and you will be automatically in a group in a few min." I know it doesn't happen often, but it used to happen to me all the time. I won't tell you that what you do is not grouping, it is. I won't tell you that it is not an interaction with other players, it is. It is a different kind of interaction and a different kind of grouping. I believe that the general MMORPG fan base is large and diverse enough to support both types of games.
That part is interesting. GMs at that time we're probably closer to DMs (dongeon masters in D&D). The DM is the one that decide what happens and what's going on.
Today, there is the whole problem of being fair, of having to find good GMs and having to serve so many people. It's also a problem of complexity, because we rely less on imagination and more on visuals and mechanics.
The situation you described .. happened to me in WOW. In fact, that is how i got into the first guild in WOW. However, i don't see it much more fun than hitting a button and do a dungeon, or looking over a guild website and decide to join them. Or better yet, just join whatever guild in advertising in a city and decide if i want to leave later.
And btw, 90% of the time, in your situation, you will just die. Do you want to count on your fun happening 1 in 10? I don't.
Well, then we clearly disagree and have boiled it down to a difference of preferances. That's cool with me. I hope you have a blast with what ya got and I hope something for me comes along sooner or later.
Of course there was always power levelers and trash talkers... but there is a massive difference between the average ass hat in a game like SWG and WOW which has a population that seems to consist 90% of people with Asperger Syndrom.
Your SWG experiance sounds quite sad, I could walk into the cantina in Bestine and always see 20+ people I knew or were aquanited with, doctors healing... entertainers buffing... Rebals there to start crap with the empirals... ect, it was a living world.
Gather up your entourage of emipre friends and roll into anchorige... take over and in 5-15min the same names/faces as usual would show themselves to run us out of there home. No one there to fight? Assult a rebal base or roll into a rebal town and cause havok, making a whole new set of enemies. Next night we would see them rolling into our town.
Why did we do this? for Points? not much you could buy with points... we did it because it was fun and what made it fun was the community that fuled it.
You claim that it is rose color glasses but what I speak of and WOW's *sit in town and queue for the daily BG to fight people who you will propably never see again to buy an item with points so you can do it again* are completely different.
SWG was a flawed buggy ass game, we knew that then and know that now, what makes it great is not its polish but its ability to empower the community. Most modern games (minus eve) restrict the player tunneling people into instances and tools like LFG and Raid Finder.
Yes. It is always a difference in preference. There is certainly no "truth" or "should be" in game design.
However, there is also a matter of the popularity of preferences. If a preference is held only by a few, it won't sustain that game style financially.
One person?
. You're picking out certain activities when MMOs are bigger than that. It's not just about engame and here's the difference:
Thousands of people can be in Stormwind at the same time. That's "massive".
Well, before the servers crashed anyway. It's not a bad argument but it's really not the same. Your discounting a large part of the MMO experience: player cities, outposts and ... well all other places outside the "instant action" spots (dungeon zones, BGs, etc.). You know, the rest of the "world". It's why this OP thread is relevent really, there is more to an MMO than instant action. You may not care about that, a large portion of players may not care about that, but a lot of people still do. Even World of Warcraft, a game that you can sit in queues while you wait for an instanced group experience, has a world to run around in.
Any? WoW was one of the closest MMOs you have for your agrument due to queues for dungeons/BGs. What about Vanguard? It has a lot of open area dungeons/group content. There is an LFG system with an auto accept feature but you still have to get out to the area or dungeon you are grouping in. It's vastly different and is a great example of what a good "world" can do for an MMO. In fact, anyone here that agrees with the OP should try Vanguard out. It's probably the best example of what some here think the genre should have ended up like.
This is technically one of the things we argue against, that if everyone has his private dungeon, the game does not feel as a world if you dont (at least) meet the people in the world.
So it is kinda odd, to argue by stating the original problem.
Just saying.
Flame on!
Made an account to say this : since i've been banned numerous times for my classic mmo arguements.
Older MMo's Everquest UNTIL the 3rd and 4th expansions.... "fast travel was added etc etc. Item levels added . etc etc. And Daoc for Pvp . Than EQOA for PS2 . These were the old MMo's that I loved and my wife loved. Actually we Still love them. The others were kinda junk.... Let me ask you this modern mmo "the games evolved people" why do thousands of people play classic everquest servers, why is the population of eq mac getting higher and higher lately? The new games are crap. GW2 has great combat , but something is missing.. It's just not the same type of game it's an action based , play it till max level than on to the next game type genre now.
I can't take any more quest hubs , I have completed 5040593405983409 quests.... back in the days of everquest the quests only gave you factions or an item. You might be 1 of 10 people out of thousands that did that quest. Now a days EVERYONE does EVERY quest. No one is unique nothing gives a feel of adventure.
The differences of modern mmo's and post wow mmo's.:
1. Instances. give me dungeons filled with people please fighting for camps and rare named spawns with rare named loots. / dragons.
2. NO questing to level
3. Classes each with unique spells / skills . 8 skill bar making you decide which skills to use. 15+ classes all with a unique role / spells. tracking / mezing / healing / pets / tanking / aggroing / rooting / porting / hasting / pulling / etc etc etc.
3. TWINKING; nothing more fun than winning a sword off a dragon than giving it to your level 1 warrior.. It's a freaking game. lets us have fun twinking. When item levels were added to everquest I quit and Most people I know quit. Show me ONE mmo without level reqs. SO LAME>>>
OPEN DUNGEONS! RARE SPAWNS THAT TAKE WEEKS TO FIGURE OUT .
HUGE LOOT TABLES on the Rare spawns.
EXPING / KILling to LEVEL , no quest leveling . While you kill you have a chance at really rare drops.
NOONE LOOKED THE SAME , Now everyone is the EXACT SAME
NO fast travel , except for druid and wizard teleports + shaman or druid speedy shoes.!
I could write a 1000 page book on the subject but I'll leave it at this. Wow was fun for a few months. I just wish someone would make a classic mmo style game. I have hopes for EQN , but in my heart sony destroyed the best mmo ever made so i feel my hopes will be crushed again.
EVE only has skill requirements, but the best mods (Faction & Officers mods) have the same skill requirement as the Meta 0 basic equivalent. There are no level requirements. If you've trained hull upgrades II (A starting character can have this in about an hour IIRC) then you can use the best armor mods in the game.
Twink away!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Oh cmon, Mal. You should know better. Skill requirements are essentially the same as level reqs, and used for the same purpose.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"Rose colored glasses" God I hate cliche phrases.
I don't know what games you played but back in 1997-2000 people in Ultima Online were very much known by name or reputation. If you didn't know sombody's reputation you learned of it one way or another. My character was very much known as a vile pick pocket and a master boat thief. My other character was well regarded as a Grandmaster Smith. I know other characters that were well known murderers and highly regarded crafters for their ability to crank GM crafted gear. Most crafters were known by name since they had their maker's mark on it. Entire guilds and player towns were known by name and reputation. Some people play entire games with their head in their arse and don't participate in the community. If that is how they want to play then more power to them. Such behavior does not support your claim that such things don't exist.
This is especially true with murderers in a pvp game. You learn who to avoid within one or two deaths.
Yeah I'll catagorically state it's not the golden age of grouping. Unless you consider grouping as getting with the next random bunch of boneheads you find who only care about you so long as it takes to complete whichever current quest you are on.
That is part of the advantage of the old style of gaming. You went out and met people. You learned about them, how they do things, maybe even a few things about them personally. People invested themselves in their social counterparts and actually cared to some extent what they did together.
Now? For all the social intereaction required for grouping in an mmo you might as well just have follower pets. The same result right? They don't speak, except maybe a few poorly worded grunts about which direction to go, and then you part ways when a particular quest is met.
The current grouping system and instanced battlegrounds go hand in hand with the lack of social characteristics in MMO's there days. The community is not strong. That isn't to say that some people don't associate and build bonds, but the vast majority of interactions are shallow and designed only to achieve a shiny reward.
If your sombody who has played MMO's from across the whole spectrum then I respect your opinion. I would like to know why you have that opinion, but you've certainly got a right to feel that way. I can't imagine why you kept playing MMO's if none of them were particularly immersive or engaging.
What annoys me are the people who think WOW is the Alpha and Omega of MMO gaming and that full loot, sandbox, adveture based worlds are an abomination.
Why would you care if there are people running around if they don't interact with you? And much of MMO gameplay is in instances anyway.
I don't think MMO has any advantage over other online games. It is just a slightly different flavor, like the lobby in WOW is 3D, instead of a menu like in D3.
It's just cool. *shrug* Why would I even care why it's cool to have other people running around in the same virtual world I'm running around in? I make note of the fact that I like it and move on with enjoying it. There are other people who agree with me. I don't know how many, but I know they exist. This is something that single player and multiplayer games cannot offer.
This isn't the only difference between a game like WoW and a game like D3, but it's one of the differences. It's not the only reason someone might prefer to play WoW over playing D3, but it is one of the reasons. That's makes it an advantage. Though, I suppose it would more properly be described as appealing to a particular preference in game play than an advantage.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.