I perfer the sub model as well, with no cash shops at all. I would rather the focus be on how we can make the game better to keep the population paying instead of what new shinies we can add the item mall or holiday events to make them buy more crap.
Well I am 100% for sub games but at the same time i understand they are not for everyone. In most cases imo sub mmo's generally do better and have better all around everything than do ftp again imo.
Also take note that you are on an MMORPG forum, and I would safely say 60-75% of the posters on these forums are hardcore ftp fanbois.
And yes go ahead and come out fanbois and chew me a new one because I know you will
*rages at hobbitpimp!*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Subscription + Cash Shop = I think this model is the best. Locusts and Bots have an harder/more expensive life, company sells in-game gold via Cash Shop. Everyone pays the same to access content, average players can buy gold legally from Cash Shop. If Cash Shop is managed honestly by the company, with interesting/No Play-to-Win items to buy and untampered rate between gems/in-game gold, this model is fair to everyone and drain a lot of gold selling from Bots. This model is the worst enemy of Bots.
The thing is, bots just have to undercut the prices in the cash shop and they can still make lots of money. The only way to really get the gold sellers is to eliminate the ability to transfer large amounts of gold and loot between players. It doesn't matter how much they farm if they are restricted on their ability to give it to anyone else.
I know people like to bash on Blizzard and WoW but personally, right now they have the most tolerable pricing system. It's a sub with non-essential cash shop stuff. No xp boost potions. No keys for lockboxes. Just mounts and non-combat pets. Sure you have to pay for transfers and name changes but I never thought those things should be free anyways.
Something I've noticed since the pre-launch hype of GW2 is alot people are saying that free=better. Publishers who charge a sub fee are greedy corporate megalomaniacs, etc...
But at the same, when you have to submit a payment to keep playing a game, you tend to value your time with that game more. F2P games feel disposable; you didn't really invest much to get into the game and there's nothing to stop you from acting like a tool while you're in the game. Or for that matter, quitting the game just as quickly as you started it.
What I would like to see is a more proactive subscription model. As in, I choose what portion of the development budget my subscription dollars are going to go toward:
-Expanding the gameplay with more depth
-More group content
-More raiding content
-More solo content
-etc
Us subbers are essentially investors. We more or less buy stock in the games we like and we support the development efforts with our dollars. Developers in this day and age would be wise to poll their subscribers to find out what we want instead of pushing a "vision" on us or waiting until we've left to make necessary changes.
While I think its an interesting Idea to maybe offer people a ranking form each month they renew their sub where they rank which development features they rank most important. I Expect if you look at things over a long enough timeline if the majority of the community are say PvE focused then the game will switch in that direction and with that switch the community minority (PvP'ers in this example) would eventually unsub because they are not getting what they want. Raiders are unlikely to stick around either since stats already show that of MMO players only a low percentage are frequent raiders so eventually raiders would fall by the wayside.
Eventually a vote would be pointless.
Ultimately IMHO subscription model is facing extinction in the face of superior buy to play and free to play options. With the Free 2 Play option many titles are getting better at dealing with problem players, who lets not forget are actually in every game its just if they have to drop $60 on a title they are less willing to risk a perma ban. In the next few years Free to Play titles are going to have the lions share of players (I would guess 50-60% of the worlds MMO'ers) spread amongst them with B2P a distant second (Id guess 40-30% and sub to play a very distant third (with at best 10-20%) and a lot more players will be splitting their time over multiple titles as a result.
Lets see here shall we. Most populated and popular mmo all time and still going=WoW
2nd most popular high fantasy mmo currently=Rift
2nd most populated mmo out there=SWTOR
although SWTOR has a FTP option, most of those ftp players are pushed hard towards sub to get the true experiance...And it went ftp just as a ploy to lure more subs cuz there ftp model is a joke
WoW and Rift both subs
all the best mmo's of all time are/were subs with the exception of gw1...example=EQ1,DAoC,WoW,EVE,Rift,
The truth is that sub games are just better because there is more focus on KEEPING the SUBS...Only the games that FAILED to do this went ftp out of desperation and/or because they got very old.
Jordan steps back, turns, jumps, swooooosh!!!!SERENDIPITY BAAABY!
Lets see here shall we. Most populated and popular mmo all time and still going=WoW
2nd most popular high fantasy mmo currently=Rift
2nd most populated mmo out there=SWTOR
although SWTOR has a FTP option, most of those ftp players are pushed hard towards sub to get the true experiance...And it went ftp just as a ploy to lure more subs cuz there ftp model is a joke
WoW and Rift both subs
all the best mmo's of all time are/were subs with the exception of gw1...example=EQ1,DAoC,WoW,EVE,Rift,
The truth is that sub games are just better because there is more focus on KEEPING the SUBS...Only the games that FAILED to do this went ftp out of desperation and/or because they got very old.
Jordan steps back, turns, jumps, swooooosh!!!!SERENDIPITY BAAABY!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lets see here shall we. Most populated and popular mmo all time and still going=WoW
2nd most popular high fantasy mmo currently=Rift
2nd most populated mmo out there=SWTOR
although SWTOR has a FTP option, most of those ftp players are pushed hard towards sub to get the true experiance...And it went ftp just as a ploy to lure more subs cuz there ftp model is a joke
WoW and Rift both subs
all the best mmo's of all time are/were subs with the exception of gw1...example=EQ1,DAoC,WoW,EVE,Rift,
The truth is that sub games are just better because there is more focus on KEEPING the SUBS...Only the games that FAILED to do this went ftp out of desperation and/or because they got very old.
Jordan steps back, turns, jumps, swooooosh!!!!SERENDIPITY BAAABY!
You used SWTOR as an example ? oh dear the game had to go F2P or it would be dead, end of story. They wont publish actual sub numbers but right before it went F2P most of the servers were very quiet.
The truth of the matter is WoW holds subs because A) people feel they have invested a hell of a lot of time and money into the game and dont want to let that investment go People who arent playing after each expansion seem to keep their subs active. Blizzard themselves admit their subscription base is slowly growing small, why do you think they keep changing the free trial options around ?
As for most popular games, where did you pull those figures ? I would like to see a source on Rift & SWTOR being second most popular globally ? SWTOR may have got there again recently (Peaked at launch) but only because it went F2P. In any case I wasnt talking about 1 or 2 titles having the most players I was talking about the majority of MMO player base being split amongst a lot of different F2P games not all going to one title. 20% of all the worlds MMO players might be playing WoW and Rift say but the other 80% of the worlds MMO players are spread across a thousand other titles. Such a finding if it were correct would indicate the majority of MMO players prefer F2P. Again I wasnt talking about which titles were most popular I was talking about what option the majority of players prefer.
All the best MMO's I played in the past were Sub to play, that much we agree on (particularly DAoC, I would add UO to that list in a heartbeat) but that was then this is now and putting Eve on that list is an odd call to make, its a Niche game with a Niche market...
When big players in the games industry and particularly the people who control the industry start saying the subscription model has had its day I tend to listen apparently some people prefer to live in denial
I think "Jordan flushed and went swirl" is more accurate.
I think it would be an interesting thing for the community. Yoshi-P did a similar thing with FFXIV 1.0 and what the players would want in the future with his annual polls.
Ultimately it isn't a subscription that keeps me playing a game, it's the game actually being well made and engaging even when I've "done it all" or am at max level.
If the game is good, I stay; this is true especially if I made friends in said game. SWTOR, Conan and Tera didn't make me stay because of the subscription and I tossed them aside just as easily as any other game in the mix.
Games that are free I give a fair chance and, if I like it, I spend money in the shop typically on a monthly basis. I'm really looking forward to both Defiance and Neverwinter at the moment -- especially Neverwinter with the ability to create quests and campaigns -- while also intending on supporting them if the game suits my needs.
A mystery in this personal data is the fact that I stuck with a sub on FFXIV 1.0. The game was garbage in nearly every way, though it slowly got better in time with a competent leadership and annual player polls as to what they want in game. This definitely supports your argument, but FFXIV was also free during this time period. It didn't go pay to play until after these things were implemented. So it could also be said that a F2P game could implement this with great success as well.
I support good leadership and respect exceptional work ethics; those who admit to mistakes earn a second chance from me in most circumstances.
One might wonder if all these MMOs that just recently went F2P might've stayed P2P is they implemented these same things. Though as it stands WoW and Eve are pretty much the only ones left with a subscription minus the older games that have established a niche playerbase (with Tera going F2P in 2013 according to various sources). I'm getting mixed reports as to when Rift will go F2P as well; some say it won't, while others say it will. I wouldn't call them inside sources, but they have contacts enough to get invited to E3 and other private gatherings throughout each year (who also predicted TSW going F2P at the end of 2012).
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
By far, the best advantage of subscription is that you get monthly payments in exchange for vague promises of maintenance and "updates." One company has revenue of well, well over 45 million per month and most of their content is added through paid expansions.
Add in a little "you pay extra for art" because $45 million per month isn't enough to cover some skins, and you have a winner.
Not everyone is successful at pulling this off, though.
The advantage for sub fees used to be that you didn't get pressured to spend more than $15 every month. Now, even sub games are trying to cash in on microtransactions and at the same time, "F2P" games are gouging players so much that only the richest players can compete. The MMO market has turned into a money-grab lately, and the development of quality content without the only goal of profits has almost disappeared.
Companies seem to quickly forget that focusing on making a good product will return more on your investment than focusing on making a profit off your product.
By far, the best advantage of subscription is that you get monthly payments in exchange for vague promises of maintenance and "updates." One company has revenue of well, well over 45 million per month and most of their content is added through paid expansions.
Add in a little "you pay extra for art" because $45 million per month isn't enough to cover some skins, and you have a winner.
Not everyone is successful at pulling this off, though.
Successful at this yes but their number of subscriptions last quarter never got above 9 million despite the latest expansion, thats down from 10-12 million.
9 Million is still a lot of paying subscribers however the drop is still in the vacinity of 25% gone from your subscriber base. The funny thing fro mmy perspective with WoW is even though they have 9 Million subscribers it still does not seem to influence how rapidly new content comes out when you compare the revenue scale to what players are getting and ontop of that they have to pay for each content update anyway.....
I don't really agree with this idea, because that puts the future of the game in the hands of the majority. Most players are kind of retarded in a bad way and I'd much rather have the developers vision of the game. Just about every game would end up similar to World of Warcraft with social networking features and in-game pinterest. Seriously, the majority enjoy easy games that don't require any skill or knowledge to play.
Free to Play games also aren't as free as they seem. Most of them are virtually endless moneysinks if you have the expendable cash to actually explore them. They mostly function by assuming that 95% are just freeloaders or minimal spenders and the other 5% are willing to waste thousands of dollars. Go check out some of the Asian grinders with items like Mounts and VIP access crossing the $2,000 mark in terms of price.
I think that Pay to Play and Free to Play are both crappy payment models. I'd rather have Buy to Play with cosmetics and a convenience cash shop. The infrequent cost of expansions seems more appealing to me than having to deal with the endless restrictions of Free to Play or the mandatory cost of Pay to Play.
Well, most democratic societies are ruled by the majority no matter how inane they are. Same goes with business as they go where the money is. More people playing the game more money. That is fact.
A sub would be cheaper. I've bought $35.00 in gems three times for myself as well as getting some for the kids since GW2 started. Just because I like it. With a sub, there's the feeling that they're sucking enough money out of my wallet monthly so they tend to never see a dime beyond the sub. With B2P, I spend to get stuff I like, obligation free.
The advantage for sub fees used to be that you didn't get pressured to spend more than $15 every month. Now, even sub games are trying to cash in on microtransactions and at the same time, "F2P" games are gouging players so much that only the richest players can compete. The MMO market has turned into a money-grab lately, and the development of quality content without the only goal of profits has almost disappeared.
Companies seem to quickly forget that focusing on making a good product will return more on your investment than focusing on making a profit off your product.
The Double dipping we are seeing (that is games offering both a subscription & cash shop) is simply publishers trying to maximise their profit by stringing along subscribers as long as possible and despite being a distastefull practice it makes sense from a business point of view.
Subscription revenue in the MMO industry as a whole has been down since 2010 according to this article from late 2011, and at that time the industry was looking to SWTOR Primarily to turn that around. And well we know what happened to SWTOR....
The predicition in that article is that by 2015 revenue from subs will be as low as 1.33 billion. In 2010 microstransactions accounted for $1.13 billion revenue and it had climbed 24% from 2009 at that point so you can see where this is all going.
Again the people controlling the industry are in the business of making money, make no mistake they will drag subscription money out of players as long as they can but the reason they already have microtrans shops in most games is because they know the industry is headed that way.
Originally posted by Volkon A sub would be cheaper. I've bought $35.00 in gems three times for myself as well as getting some for the kids since GW2 started. Just because I like it. With a sub, there's the feeling that they're sucking enough money out of my wallet monthly so they tend to never see a dime beyond the sub. With B2P, I spend to get stuff I like, obligation free.
Rift originally was 60 dollars (and the expansion is 45 dollars), same with WoW (25 bucks or more for each expansion), and TSW. SWTOR was the same or more. So there goes your theory out the window.
Originally posted by Volkon A sub would be cheaper. I've bought $35.00 in gems three times for myself as well as getting some for the kids since GW2 started. Just because I like it. With a sub, there's the feeling that they're sucking enough money out of my wallet monthly so they tend to never see a dime beyond the sub. With B2P, I spend to get stuff I like, obligation free.
Rift originally was 60 dollars (and the expansion is 45 dollars), same with WoW (25 bucks or more for each expansion), and TSW. SWTOR was the same or more. So there goes your theory out the window.
Actually she's currently right. It's not like GW2 is free. You have to buy the box which is the same price as any other boxed MMO and the price stays high longer because it is a key part of Arenanet's revenue. She said she paid $35 three times for herself which is like 7 months of sub time. GW2 hasn't been out seven months yet so she's paid more for GW2 than had she played the other games. And let's not forget...GW2 will have expansions also and they will command full price, not expansion prices.
Originally posted by Volkon A sub would be cheaper. I've bought $35.00 in gems three times for myself as well as getting some for the kids since GW2 started. Just because I like it. With a sub, there's the feeling that they're sucking enough money out of my wallet monthly so they tend to never see a dime beyond the sub. With B2P, I spend to get stuff I like, obligation free.
Rift originally was 60 dollars (and the expansion is 45 dollars), same with WoW (25 bucks or more for each expansion), and TSW. SWTOR was the same or more. So there goes your theory out the window.
Actually she's currently right. It's not like GW2 is free. You have to buy the box which is the same price as any other boxed MMO and the price stays high longer because it is a key part of Arenanet's revenue. She said she paid $35 three times for herself which is like 7 months of sub time. GW2 hasn't been out seven months yet so she's paid more for GW2 than had she played the other games. And let's not forget...GW2 will have expansions also and they will command full price, not expansion prices.
The problem with what was said is that buying things "obligation free" is different from it being "required" to even access. What about the statistically higher amount of people who haven't spent a single dollar/GBP/Euro? There's even a chance to use gold to convert into gems. As it stands these people have already saved $45 in subscription fees. If something is not required, then all it takes is willpower for it not to be more expensive than subscription.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Originally posted by Volkon A sub would be cheaper. I've bought $35.00 in gems three times for myself as well as getting some for the kids since GW2 started. Just because I like it. With a sub, there's the feeling that they're sucking enough money out of my wallet monthly so they tend to never see a dime beyond the sub. With B2P, I spend to get stuff I like, obligation free.
Rift originally was 60 dollars (and the expansion is 45 dollars), same with WoW (25 bucks or more for each expansion), and TSW. SWTOR was the same or more. So there goes your theory out the window.
Actually she's currently right. It's not like GW2 is free. You have to buy the box which is the same price as any other boxed MMO and the price stays high longer because it is a key part of Arenanet's revenue. She said she paid $35 three times for herself which is like 7 months of sub time. GW2 hasn't been out seven months yet so she's paid more for GW2 than had she played the other games. And let's not forget...GW2 will have expansions also and they will command full price, not expansion prices.
The problem with what was said is that buying things "obligation free" is different from it being "required" to even access. What about the statistically higher amount of people who haven't spent a single dollar/GBP/Euro? There's even a chance to use gold to convert into gems. As it stands these people have already saved $45 in subscription fees. If something is not required, then all it takes is willpower for it not to be more expensive than subscription.
I should have said she is currently right for her. For her, today, GW2 has cost more than a sub MMO. In a few months, that may change also. You are correct that doesn't apply to everyone. B2P and F2P is banking on volume of players. They only expect around 10-20% of the players spending money in the cash shop.
I'm always for the subscription model, as I'm always for less for more. The sub gets you the whole shebang, whereas other models require you to dish out more for less if you want access to any given game's content in it's entirety; which is something I want. I'm not on the lookout for the video game equivalent of a painfully shitty Canadian cell phone plan. That's just plain awful. No thank you. I want bang for my buck, and the sub model delivers in spades.
It's a no brainer (one would think).
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Historically not true especially of the elephant in the room, it's only been recently, ie the last two expansions, that they've slowed their content release on expansions to be three major patches of content to spread it out.
-More group content
Nothing wrong with the number of group content events and things to do in the game, they have 6 dungeons and about 4 major meta events. not lacking there.
-More raiding content
Typical, one does not need to learn to do a dance to have many a person come out to enjoy large content that has alot of lore in it. This was a misconception people were trying to push prelaunch not anymore true now then it was before launch.
-More solo content
No loss of solo content in GW2. There's pleanty of solo content to do. Historically the Sub only games especially WoW and Rift were originally not solo friendly at all. It took losing a large population from their game before they changed and adapted to the new class of players coming to these games. It happens with F2P titles and it will happen with this B2P game GW2 as well just give it time.
-etc
Subbers are no more investors then F2P players, often it's been argued by those who share your stance the F2P players spend loads more cash into the game then subbers with a shop ever could improving the income for the F2P games. You can't argue it both ways. You cannot honestly argue that F2P gamers aren't investors and argue that F2P gamers spend loads more money then subbers. That's not how reality works I'm afraid.
Subbers also suffer because the slowdown and psychological games that the developers play on the players of sub only games to keep them occupied until the next release or to slow their progress is immense. For example, the neverending list of factions that spring up every expansion that one never saw or heard of years before this expansion occurred and then suddenly poof. No explanation. combined with the differences between gaining max reputation for gamebreaking items that are needed to succeed end game. LOTRO went F2P and instantly changed their model for factions. They made it so instead of dailies they were hourlys. Instead of having to travel long distances to turn in trinkets for rep, the trinkets could be turned in everywhere and drop off everything in the area efficiently. And they made it so that most of the reputation you would receive came from the quests you had to do to level to max level so that max rep was easily accomplished after reaching max level. What did games like WoW do? They have you do dailies spending months building up reputation or you could be locked into running dungeons like the lobby game phylosophy it kept even in this newest expansion.
I'm always for the subscription model, as I'm always for less for more. The sub gets you the whole shebang, whereas other models require you to dish out more for less if you want access to any given game's content in it's entirety; which is something I want. I'm not on the lookout for the video game equivalent of a painfully shitty Canadian cell phone plan. That's just plain awful. No thank you. I want bang for my buck, and the sub model delivers in spades.
It's a no brainer (one would think).
That is really not true, many of the least popular (currently) F2P MMO's use that model but most allow you to access 90% or more of the games content. A few of the more restrictive ones have changed their approach recently too to allow players to acces most content. So while what you say is true of some F2P titles it is actually true of the minority.
Comments
*rages at hobbitpimp!*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The thing is, bots just have to undercut the prices in the cash shop and they can still make lots of money. The only way to really get the gold sellers is to eliminate the ability to transfer large amounts of gold and loot between players. It doesn't matter how much they farm if they are restricted on their ability to give it to anyone else.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I have a lot more reasons for my list, but yours sums up the jist of why I prefer sub over ftp or btp.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
While I think its an interesting Idea to maybe offer people a ranking form each month they renew their sub where they rank which development features they rank most important. I Expect if you look at things over a long enough timeline if the majority of the community are say PvE focused then the game will switch in that direction and with that switch the community minority (PvP'ers in this example) would eventually unsub because they are not getting what they want. Raiders are unlikely to stick around either since stats already show that of MMO players only a low percentage are frequent raiders so eventually raiders would fall by the wayside.
Eventually a vote would be pointless.
Ultimately IMHO subscription model is facing extinction in the face of superior buy to play and free to play options. With the Free 2 Play option many titles are getting better at dealing with problem players, who lets not forget are actually in every game its just if they have to drop $60 on a title they are less willing to risk a perma ban. In the next few years Free to Play titles are going to have the lions share of players (I would guess 50-60% of the worlds MMO'ers) spread amongst them with B2P a distant second (Id guess 40-30% and sub to play a very distant third (with at best 10-20%) and a lot more players will be splitting their time over multiple titles as a result.
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Subscription model is going extinct....
lol u are very funny
Lets see here shall we. Most populated and popular mmo all time and still going=WoW
2nd most popular high fantasy mmo currently=Rift
2nd most populated mmo out there=SWTOR
although SWTOR has a FTP option, most of those ftp players are pushed hard towards sub to get the true experiance...And it went ftp just as a ploy to lure more subs cuz there ftp model is a joke
WoW and Rift both subs
all the best mmo's of all time are/were subs with the exception of gw1...example=EQ1,DAoC,WoW,EVE,Rift,
The truth is that sub games are just better because there is more focus on KEEPING the SUBS...Only the games that FAILED to do this went ftp out of desperation and/or because they got very old.
Jordan steps back, turns, jumps, swooooosh!!!!SERENDIPITY BAAABY!
I miss the massive in MMO.
True
Source?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You used SWTOR as an example ? oh dear the game had to go F2P or it would be dead, end of story. They wont publish actual sub numbers but right before it went F2P most of the servers were very quiet.
The truth of the matter is WoW holds subs because A) people feel they have invested a hell of a lot of time and money into the game and dont want to let that investment go
People who arent playing after each expansion seem to keep their subs active. Blizzard themselves admit their subscription base is slowly growing small, why do you think they keep changing the free trial options around ?
As for most popular games, where did you pull those figures ? I would like to see a source on Rift & SWTOR being second most popular globally ? SWTOR may have got there again recently (Peaked at launch) but only because it went F2P. In any case I wasnt talking about 1 or 2 titles having the most players I was talking about the majority of MMO player base being split amongst a lot of different F2P games not all going to one title. 20% of all the worlds MMO players might be playing WoW and Rift say but the other 80% of the worlds MMO players are spread across a thousand other titles. Such a finding if it were correct would indicate the majority of MMO players prefer F2P. Again I wasnt talking about which titles were most popular I was talking about what option the majority of players prefer.
All the best MMO's I played in the past were Sub to play, that much we agree on (particularly DAoC, I would add UO to that list in a heartbeat) but that was then this is now and putting Eve on that list is an odd call to make, its a Niche game with a Niche market...
When big players in the games industry and particularly the people who control the industry start saying the subscription model has had its day I tend to listen apparently some people prefer to live in denial
I think "Jordan flushed and went swirl" is more accurate.
I think it would be an interesting thing for the community. Yoshi-P did a similar thing with FFXIV 1.0 and what the players would want in the future with his annual polls.
Ultimately it isn't a subscription that keeps me playing a game, it's the game actually being well made and engaging even when I've "done it all" or am at max level.
If the game is good, I stay; this is true especially if I made friends in said game. SWTOR, Conan and Tera didn't make me stay because of the subscription and I tossed them aside just as easily as any other game in the mix.
Games that are free I give a fair chance and, if I like it, I spend money in the shop typically on a monthly basis. I'm really looking forward to both Defiance and Neverwinter at the moment -- especially Neverwinter with the ability to create quests and campaigns -- while also intending on supporting them if the game suits my needs.
A mystery in this personal data is the fact that I stuck with a sub on FFXIV 1.0. The game was garbage in nearly every way, though it slowly got better in time with a competent leadership and annual player polls as to what they want in game. This definitely supports your argument, but FFXIV was also free during this time period. It didn't go pay to play until after these things were implemented. So it could also be said that a F2P game could implement this with great success as well.
I support good leadership and respect exceptional work ethics; those who admit to mistakes earn a second chance from me in most circumstances.
One might wonder if all these MMOs that just recently went F2P might've stayed P2P is they implemented these same things. Though as it stands WoW and Eve are pretty much the only ones left with a subscription minus the older games that have established a niche playerbase (with Tera going F2P in 2013 according to various sources). I'm getting mixed reports as to when Rift will go F2P as well; some say it won't, while others say it will. I wouldn't call them inside sources, but they have contacts enough to get invited to E3 and other private gatherings throughout each year (who also predicted TSW going F2P at the end of 2012).
By far, the best advantage of subscription is that you get monthly payments in exchange for vague promises of maintenance and "updates." One company has revenue of well, well over 45 million per month and most of their content is added through paid expansions.
Add in a little "you pay extra for art" because $45 million per month isn't enough to cover some skins, and you have a winner.
Not everyone is successful at pulling this off, though.
The advantage for sub fees used to be that you didn't get pressured to spend more than $15 every month. Now, even sub games are trying to cash in on microtransactions and at the same time, "F2P" games are gouging players so much that only the richest players can compete. The MMO market has turned into a money-grab lately, and the development of quality content without the only goal of profits has almost disappeared.
Companies seem to quickly forget that focusing on making a good product will return more on your investment than focusing on making a profit off your product.
Successful at this yes but their number of subscriptions last quarter never got above 9 million despite the latest expansion, thats down from 10-12 million.
9 Million is still a lot of paying subscribers however the drop is still in the vacinity of 25% gone from your subscriber base. The funny thing fro mmy perspective with WoW is even though they have 9 Million subscribers it still does not seem to influence how rapidly new content comes out when you compare the revenue scale to what players are getting and ontop of that they have to pay for each content update anyway.....
Well, most democratic societies are ruled by the majority no matter how inane they are. Same goes with business as they go where the money is. More people playing the game more money. That is fact.
Oderint, dum metuant.
The Double dipping we are seeing (that is games offering both a subscription & cash shop) is simply publishers trying to maximise their profit by stringing along subscribers as long as possible and despite being a distastefull practice it makes sense from a business point of view.
Subscription revenue in the MMO industry as a whole has been down since 2010 according to this article from late 2011, and at that time the industry was looking to SWTOR Primarily to turn that around. And well we know what happened to SWTOR....
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/15/mmo-subscription-dollars-in-decline-for-the-first-time-since-200/
The predicition in that article is that by 2015 revenue from subs will be as low as 1.33 billion. In 2010 microstransactions accounted for $1.13 billion revenue and it had climbed 24% from 2009 at that point so you can see where this is all going.
Again the people controlling the industry are in the business of making money, make no mistake they will drag subscription money out of players as long as they can but the reason they already have microtrans shops in most games is because they know the industry is headed that way.
Rift originally was 60 dollars (and the expansion is 45 dollars), same with WoW (25 bucks or more for each expansion), and TSW. SWTOR was the same or more. So there goes your theory out the window.
Actually she's currently right. It's not like GW2 is free. You have to buy the box which is the same price as any other boxed MMO and the price stays high longer because it is a key part of Arenanet's revenue. She said she paid $35 three times for herself which is like 7 months of sub time. GW2 hasn't been out seven months yet so she's paid more for GW2 than had she played the other games. And let's not forget...GW2 will have expansions also and they will command full price, not expansion prices.
The problem with what was said is that buying things "obligation free" is different from it being "required" to even access. What about the statistically higher amount of people who haven't spent a single dollar/GBP/Euro? There's even a chance to use gold to convert into gems. As it stands these people have already saved $45 in subscription fees. If something is not required, then all it takes is willpower for it not to be more expensive than subscription.
I should have said she is currently right for her. For her, today, GW2 has cost more than a sub MMO. In a few months, that may change also. You are correct that doesn't apply to everyone. B2P and F2P is banking on volume of players. They only expect around 10-20% of the players spending money in the cash shop.
I'm always for the subscription model, as I'm always for less for more. The sub gets you the whole shebang, whereas other models require you to dish out more for less if you want access to any given game's content in it's entirety; which is something I want. I'm not on the lookout for the video game equivalent of a painfully shitty Canadian cell phone plan. That's just plain awful. No thank you. I want bang for my buck, and the sub model delivers in spades.
It's a no brainer (one would think).
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Subbers are no more investors then F2P players, often it's been argued by those who share your stance the F2P players spend loads more cash into the game then subbers with a shop ever could improving the income for the F2P games. You can't argue it both ways. You cannot honestly argue that F2P gamers aren't investors and argue that F2P gamers spend loads more money then subbers. That's not how reality works I'm afraid.
Subbers also suffer because the slowdown and psychological games that the developers play on the players of sub only games to keep them occupied until the next release or to slow their progress is immense. For example, the neverending list of factions that spring up every expansion that one never saw or heard of years before this expansion occurred and then suddenly poof. No explanation. combined with the differences between gaining max reputation for gamebreaking items that are needed to succeed end game. LOTRO went F2P and instantly changed their model for factions. They made it so instead of dailies they were hourlys. Instead of having to travel long distances to turn in trinkets for rep, the trinkets could be turned in everywhere and drop off everything in the area efficiently. And they made it so that most of the reputation you would receive came from the quests you had to do to level to max level so that max rep was easily accomplished after reaching max level. What did games like WoW do? They have you do dailies spending months building up reputation or you could be locked into running dungeons like the lobby game phylosophy it kept even in this newest expansion.
Doesn't seem better on the sub side to me.
That is really not true, many of the least popular (currently) F2P MMO's use that model but most allow you to access 90% or more of the games content. A few of the more restrictive ones have changed their approach recently too to allow players to acces most content. So while what you say is true of some F2P titles it is actually true of the minority.