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History of CU and what went wrong
admriker444
Member Posts: 1,526
This below statement pulled from SWG forums should be used anytime someone says they love the CU or how the CU was a good thing. It explains in great detail how the CU was never intended to be what it is. I think SOE hopes the new players will never know what they did to this game. Its up to vets to let them know.
And I have yet to see even the most hardcore fanboy able to argue against this post. Its the perfect response to anything they have to say...
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.
It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.
It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.
It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.
The reason why it was is the kicker.
3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.
This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.
So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.
This is a cheat.
The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.
It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.
XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.
Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.
Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*
*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)
So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"
Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.
Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.
You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid. You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.
Bam. Done.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
And WORTHLESS.
That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.
Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor
You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.
And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.
You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.
It takes time which they claim they don't have.
The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.
It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.
Without it, the CU would work.
With it, SWG is dead.
Repub Arnaz ~~MDE/MWS/MArtisan~~
Comments
Why don't you just post "SoE are the devil and world poverty is their fault" and get it out of the way?
Seriously, don't you ever get tired of constantly whining?
I will always disagree with the CU naysayers. It made the game play much better in my opinion, balanced most of the professions one against the other, and cleared some of the stupid nonsense like super-buffing etc.
It took away the invulnerabilities of Pistoleer/Smugglers and Fencer/Riflemen in PVP and PvE.
It clearly defined what profession was good at wqhat, and perfectly implemented those concepts into the game play.
YES, it COULD have been better, and as is usual it is far from perfect. more work needs to be done.
However, I still feel that the direction these changes are going is the RIGHT ONE, but people are not going to clearly see this until it is actually finished, until ALL the professions have been reworked.
It never is about how ONE profession plays in a game of this nature, but how they each correspond to other professions in the game, and for what purpose is their existence...
To that end, it's not done yet. The CU was the BEGINNING of these balancing acts, and they are still going on so I will reserve judgment until it is finally completed.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
So you guys are okay with them cheating you out of a wonderful skill based game because they were too lazy and cheap to fix it ? The proof is right there in that post of what they did to you.
And for the post who said the game is balanced, cmon you dont actually believe that ? How many fencers do you see running around compared to BH/CM ?
All they did was switch things around. Pre-cu melee was king and the only ranged profession that was viable were the rifleman/cm combos who had dots to tack on mind pool.
Post-CU rifleman/cm are just as overpowered (for different reasons) and melee is now weak. Ranged is king now.
And no I wont let things go. Thats just what SOE hopes will happen. Let the vets quit like me, then eventually the newer players will be ignorant to the lies from SOE. Then SOE can screw them over too.
I still see it on forums. Posts where the player sees potential in the game but I cant respond to let him know thats been said for 2+ years and will never happen. Posts that again believe a smuggler revamp will come. Again I cant post to show them that link where every single post from TH was compiled to show how ridiculous SOE is.
So no, I will not go gentle into that good night. I will rage against the dying of the light (or in this case SOE). To quote Dylan Thomas
The skill based game is still there the last time I checked. They just added a level matrix on top of it, from which they could base mob level modifiers on.
Also professional choices has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with playsytle. Was the same pre-CU. Only leet-doods were interested in being a god amongst the lesser gods.
Melee is also not weak, they just have a different role as ranged. Actually a pure melee character can solo PvE with greater ease then a pure ranged profession can.
I personally have a pure crafter and aside from having to watch my back now, your claims about them are over exaggerated.
Yah, immagine that, a Star Wars game that features people with blasters instead of people with battle axes, swords and knives.
GEEE who'dathunk!?!???
No offense admkirker, I agree that the CU could have been done DIFFERENTLY and gotten similar results but WE are not the DEVS. What they did WORKED and the game is better for it, imnsho. Yes, I liked the mind/action/health pool system a bit better and I REALLY liked the different *types* of damage and resists to them (I honestly miss that and don't know WHY it was taken out) but the bottom line is that the game is FAR more balanced now than it was pre-CU and a lot of the glaring problems were fixed as a result.
Was it how I would have done it? No
Did it work? Yes
Am I a Dev for SOE? No
Do I have a say? No
Bottom line: Game is better now than Pre-CU (IMO)
You can rant, rave, whine, complain, whatever but it WONT CHANGE anything. Get OVER it. The CU is history. Done. Not going Away. Get used to it and Get over it or leave the game. Those are really your only options. Personally I Find it amazing that people are still grousing about the CU 6 months after the fact. It's DONE folks. It ISN'T going away at this point. There are now TWO expansions and MULTIPLE patches done on top of it. They aren't going to back it out.
Learn to like it or leave, those are your only options. Many people like it. Some don't. Such is life.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Wrong.
You have had your say, and it has taken effect as many MANY others have left the product with the same feedback.
If you didn't, it wouldn't have happened.
This is the only thing that this type of company management seems to appreciate, customers leaving.
If they stay, nothing is ever changed.
Some companies are different in this respect. I suspect that Sigil, the makers of Vanguard, are one of these. They understand the concept that trust and quality drive the industry. SOE has never really grasped this concept, as they are run by greedy management, and greedy management NEVER appreciates delivery of a quality product.
To me, if you are working on a game product and appreciate the ideals of justice and conscience, you will make a great game. The money will come by default.
Business management seems to always want to FORCE the money, to suck you dry, rather than deliver the product that is sought. They really believe that this is the only method to make the maximum profit. But they are wrong.
We aren't making toasters here.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Wrong.
You have had your say, and it has taken effect as many MANY others have left the product with the same feedback.
If you didn't, it wouldn't have happened.
This is the only thing that this type of company management seems to appreciate, customers leaving.
If they stay, nothing is ever changed.
Some companies are different in this respect. I suspect that Sigil, the makers of Vanguard, are one of these. They understand the concept that trust and quality drive the industry. SOE has never really grasped this concept, as they are run by greedy management, and greedy management NEVER appreciates delivery of a quality product.
To me, if you are working on a game product and appreciate the ideals of justice and conscience, you will make a great game. The money will come by default.
Business management seems to always want to FORCE the money, to suck you dry, rather than deliver the product that is sought. They really believe that this is the only method to make the maximum profit. But they are wrong.
We aren't making toasters here.
Wepps,
Actually I agree, and you got my point. The ONLY say we, as a customer, have. Is our WALLET. As long as you BUY and continue to PAY FOR garbage the game companies will continue to produce *GARBAGE*.
Look at IRTH!!!!!
"Next great thing!"
"Devs listen to the players!"
"Devs are promising not to release till it's really ready!"
But now:
Buy now and get a discount on the price! We'll continue to fix the bugs that are in the game and get things up to snuff! But go ahead and buy now, we're releasing now!
Sound familliar folks? NOW do you see why so MANY of us who are in beta's for various games tell you DO NOT BUY IT FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS!!??
As long as the sheople keep forking over money for unfinished products the products will continue to get worse and worse and worse.
Take Microsoft as a PRIME example!!! Until people stopped buying their garbage upgrades they didn't FIX their operating system. It took the FLOP of Windows ME for them to wake up and make a real OS for their customers! They would have continued producing half-assed operating systems as long as they could if people hadn't said "!!!! ENOUGH !!!!" And stopped buying their products. Same for Frontpage. Ever notice that Frontpage didn't become a decent editor till Dreamweaver hit? Now Frontpage is actually a decent product. It wasn't at first, and it STILL puts all kinds of garbage on your HTML code. But it's lightyears better than it was when Dreamweaver started cutting into market share.
As long as you continue to BUY Garbage the companies will continue to SELL it.
Bottom line, end of story. The only SAY you have in a product is your WALLET.
It really isn't hard, when a game comes out, to say to yourself "I think I'll wait a few months for a free trial".
Don't buy a game just because it's the new thing or the most anticipated. I guarantee it WONT live up to your expectations. Wait 6 months. Make the game companies realize that they have to release FINISHED products.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Only going to point out one final thing here:
You keep bringing up morality and ethics. It's a service that you pay for the priviledge of playing. It doesn't give you a right to tell them how to run the game. If you dissagree with a decision they make or the way they do things then stop paying for the service and leave.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
Morals have nothing to do with the decisions of a gaming company. They don't CARE how you feel. They don't CARE if you like them. They don't CARE what YOU want. What they CARE about is getting more customers and your input means VERY little to them. If you do not like a game do not waste your time or your efforts trying to get the game company to change their ways. Simply do this: LEAVE
Honest, folks. The ONLY thing that game companies listen to is your Wallet. As long as you continue to pay, even if you're unhappy, they won't CARE what you say.
Ever noticed that the ONLY time a game company really asks you what you like or don't about the game and really gives you the opportunity to give feedback is when you hit CANCEL??? Did you think this was just a coincidence?
Vote with your WALLET, it's the only thing that matters to them.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
GAH another double post! Sorry
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
The boat has sailed. Not much we can do at this point but scratch our heads and, if we dislike it enough, hit "cancel." That's what I finally did a few weeks ago.
I didn't do combat much pre-CU so I have no real perspective on how much it did or didn't damage that side of the game. What upset me is that the CU sidelined entertaining from the rest of the game. Unnecessarily, imho--BF was a neat concept that gave combat players an incentive to socialize with others in the game, which was taken out for no reason at all. Mind wounds could have been replaced with something else equally useful to the combat side (a temporary morale bonus in combat or something--hell, I dunno). Instead, we were given a non-combatant buffing system that has tied our fate to that of the dwindling numbers of pure crafters, and left entertainers virtually disconnected from where the real action is, the combat side of the game. That, and the cowardly refusal by all the devs, from the very start of the game, to do anything about AFK play, has just killed entertaining almost completely.
What set SWG apart from the rest of the herd was its strong social side; I've never seen anything even approaching it except in UO, and very distantly in AO. I don't think there's much denying that the devs have badly neglected this aspect of the game, and even struck it several potentially mortal blows. I would have thought it would have made more sense to cultivate this side of the game while fixing the combat side, instead of destroying it in favor of the combat side.
Anyway, I'm gone from it. Everyone who says that the only way to send a real message to these clowns is to hit "cancel," hit the nail squarely on the head.
--Chastity Nightdancer
This is a post that every game developer should put on their walls.
Example 1 - What NOT to do to an MMORPG.
Brilliant dissection of not only the breakdown of the development process, but the reason this CU was ROTTEN TO THE CORE.
They could have upped the damage on guns, reduced the buffs, and lowered the armor encumbrance and this mess would never have taken place.
I just hate when fanbois just scream that the devs did the right thing. They didn't. This CU was NOT what the sandbox was working towards.. it was NOT what the developers invisioned and the player reps were working towards. It was a slapped together mess that doesn't work.
Tell me ONE thing that was broken before that was fixed. Anyone? Bueller?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I always defended the CU
Until i saw how broken it really was
Just ruined the social content and everything for artisans tbh
---------------------------------------------
Don't click here...no2
Meh.. I was upset with the changes when they hit, they really suprised me. But in reality, I am still having fun with the game. Honestly though, I think that a lot of people who talk about pre-CU forget how borked up pvp was back then. The system was so cool, but the end result was.... hmm... not fun, except in big battles that didnt have a ton of CM's in them (which rarely happened). In reality, pvp was much better shortly after the game came out. There was a short period of time where there was some good pvp, CMs were rare, commandos could combat the Imps that were dragging 3 ATSTs around, TKs were excellent but if kept at range were dead, there were little to no dot weapons, doc buffs were nice but not overwhelming and Jedi were not in the game. Sadly, pve was borked back then so... oh well.
So anyway. The CU was not what we expected, but like said above, it works. With the new mob AI, your "bags" are relatively fun to fight again. Sadly, crafters are shafted. But crafters really have not gotten a good deal since... hmm, RIS came out?
No over event in the history of Star Wars Galaxies caused so many people to leave, yet people praise it as the saviour of SWG. The reason the community is still stable is because of Episode 3, and that was all very well timed.. a little too well timed if you ask me.
SOE wanted to change the game to attract new younger players with more $$$, but they knew if they did it at any other time than before Episode 3, they would not have the advertising resources (or want to waste money on it). So Episode 3 came and went, a huge influx of people joined the game, a big number of vetrans were royally p*ssed off but did it matter is they left the game? ... No as the influx of people more than made up for it in profitability terms. SOE also knew that a lot of people would stay because of what they had achieved on the game and the friends on the game.
SOE HAS used unethical business practises but precise timing to obscure it and achieve their goals.
The simple facts are:
1. They Lied to the community
2. They made promices that have never been followed through
3. They did it for money
Pre CU may not have been perfect, but i enjoyed it a hell of a lot more. I had to work my way up the game by myself box by box and with a group, and enjoyed it all the time while i was grinding up.
Now you have level ones in dantooine asking to join a group to be Power Leveled.
Combat is not upgraded, they took away the good sounds and added mediocre sounds and unrealistic light effects, all of this to appeal to the new WoW generation of MMO players
The 14 and unders..
Actually that isn't true. Far more people left when they announced the removal of all development (from the CU, etc) and where moving it onto JTL, so that they could hit their deadline.
There is no denying the CU lost subscribers, however the new crowd it brought in (as well as RotW) outweighed those leaving. It also brought back many people who had left in disgust when the CU was put off in preference of JTL. Even people who left over the CU have returned and either grew to accept it, or ultimately preferred it. SWG certainly isn't in a worse shape because of it. Better or worse (mechantics wise), it stabilised what was a downward spiral from the pre-CU days.
I didn't do combat much pre-CU so I have no real perspective on how much it did or didn't damage that side of the game. What upset me is that the CU sidelined entertaining from the rest of the game. Unnecessarily, imho--BF was a neat concept that gave combat players an incentive to socialize with others in the game, which was taken out for no reason at all. Mind wounds could have been replaced with something else equally useful to the combat side (a temporary morale bonus in combat or something--hell, I dunno). Instead, we were given a non-combatant buffing system that has tied our fate to that of the dwindling numbers of pure crafters, and left entertainers virtually disconnected from where the real action is, the combat side of the game. That, and the cowardly refusal by all the devs, from the very start of the game, to do anything about AFK play, has just killed entertaining almost completely.
Amen to the above post.
The cu didn't produce a better or worse combat system because it being better or worse would require some non-arbitary factor to determine whether it was successful at achiving its goals. Opinions and conjecture on that are so wide open. SOE's main objective is to increase subscribers and satisfy the customers. The cu certainly didn't have those desired effects. Whether you love it or hate it the thing is not getting undone so your options are play with the cu, make recommendations for changes or quit.
The cu was an example of how not to impliment wide spread changes. If something isn't supported in the community of testers it shouldn't be expected to be supported in the general games community. So until you could sell the testers on the changes being made where improvements. Now you might say, these testers are a bunch of jerks and being unreasonable. So you redo the beta and kick them off it for new testers.
What was being asked for by the testers to sell the CU was to have an option for the old icons instead of the colored icons, a limited combat que, an option to remove the special effects and not ruining crafting.
I personally knew 3 correspondants since game launch and played and hunted with all 3 at various times in the game. They where generous, community orientated players who understood there profession and probably produced superior items to just about every server. The original shipwright correspondent also was a superior player from our server. Tempest loved these 3 players. I still don't find anything comparable to Felton Kel's shop stocked. Parts wise for JTL no vendors goods stats are close to what Bastilla produced. All 3 of these players who played the game since launch. One of them an orginal server jedi, who did nothing but support the game and the community. These 3 people stood up and said with supporting facts the cu was not viable at the time. Not one dev listened to these 3 correspondants who all summarily resigned over the cu. Tempest lost 3 correspondents, 3 great crafters, 3 great cities, a lot of server history and a lot of what made playing on that server worth it.
That is the CU to me and many many players on our server. So anyone who says the CU was necessary. Just know it blew up tempest which wasn't intended or planned but happened because they choose to ignore the reps for 3 major professions at the time.
I will give you the CU was necessary. I will never agree that it should have been released in the form it was in or at the time they did it.
Actually.. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who I know on our message board community (2k members) who came back because of the CU have already re-cancelled.
Myself Included. (Well actually I came back because of JTL. LOVE that part of the game. The one thing they got right, but is now neglected)
Oh, and P.S.
I was one of the testers who rallied for the old icons and turning off the new graphics.. and I was told that it was impossible because "They are so much better, you'll grow to like it" They were SO wrong. They are a constant reminder of why I hate that game every time I look at the screen.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Kai,
You are deluding yourself.
You pay them for the priveledge to play their game. That is all. It doesn't give you a say in what decisions they make.
The ONLY thing they listen to is the sound of the money hitting their bank account. Your ability to influence them is directly tied to your willingness to hit CANCEL and stop playing if you don't like something they're doing.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas