I don't think that the internet brings out the worst in people. I think for some its just the opposite. In real life I'm sarcastic, have a huge ego, and for lack of a better word at the moment, have an "alpha"-like attitude towards everyone around me.
Online, people tell me I'm kind, talkative, helpful, and completely unlike myself in real life. (Those that know me irl and ingame) Half of my friends PREFER to talk to me ingame or on facebook, etc. because I'm less overbearing.
Not sure why some people tend to get nastier online, but not everyone does. It would be interesting to see if anyone has done any kind of study on this behavior. Why do people like me tend to act nicer online, and some people get nastier?
It's like Halloween, only easier access. I think it helps people that get sick of themselves. That would facilitate the opposite behavior.
Also, I find this article and responses depressing. I'm a very trusting person. Every one I meet I trust until proven otherwise. Am I aware there are backstabbers and cynical people that would gladly screw me over? Of course. The difference is, I will be in a much better mood than you until it happens. I will continue to see people in a positive light while you are damning them as they walk by. I may be more shocked than some of you when I am betrayed, and it may happen more frequently because of my trusting nature, but I will be happier all the while and I think that's worth it.
The moral of the story is people will do whatever they think they can get away with.
In our society we have let laws get lax and spend more time trying to protect the criminal than the victim and thus crime increases.
Do you ever speed while driving?
What about around a cop car?
I didn't think so.
Let people interact with other without that chance of the other person taking offense and pounding your face in and they will be the jackasses they truely are, because they can get away with it.
I could understand this happening in MMO's or other online games, BUT in real life I could never see this happening. All my friends, we've known each other for at least 10+ years. Even if we've had problems in the past, no one outside of the "main" circle would ever be able to break the friendship bonds between us.
Every game except EVE I run a guild with my wife and a few friends we have known for 10+ years real life, limits us doing the big stuff but peace of mind and trust that is worth it.
Studies actually show that some people can't empathize through a keyboard -- this is to say, that they don't really believe that there is a feeling human being on the other side of the text they are responding to.
It's not anonymity that makes them jerks, it's the inability to imagine that text has a human author.
There are probably a few sociopaths that are genuinely trolling because of the shield of anonymity, but they are statistically much rarer. People who have issues with extending empathy through text media are more frequent in all likelihood.
Folks on the autism spectrum (and that includes us geeks with ADD/ADHD -- a *lot* of gamers!) actually have an easier time with empathy through the keyboard because it removes all those confusing body language cues and subtexts that can mess us up.
And geeks in general like contentious engagement -- avoiding small talk and diving into issues -- which can seem like all out war and escalate at a moment's notice. Hacker culture has been seen as very unfriendly due to this particularly to more traditional womens' culture.
As a woman engineer with 30 years on the net, and the former and founding executive director of the Tor Project (anonymity software) I've been fascinated with online identity and interactivity and specifically online anonymity for quite some years.
We tend to associate anonymity with "fear of strangers" rather than privacy or pseudonymity (having a handle, like a gamer handle, that identifies us persistently and carries a reputation with it). A handle can have as intense a reputation as a "real name" if not more so. When a sales dude calls ytou on the phone to sell you something they may give you a real (sounding?) name, but you might have no way to verify their name or reputation against anything. "Handles" like rms or esr in the hacker community come with recognition and reputation and credibility (or sometimes notoriety?) that can accrue for decades and make or break careers.
As pro gaming and the popularity of gaming in general spreads the same will be true for gamer handles, for reps in the gamer community, and for the linking of reputation across handles as folks try and perhaps fail to change identity between games and gamer social nets. It'll be interesting to see this context grow up.
Kind of funny but it was stuff like this that made me change from a guildie group player to a solo'er.
Ive always enjoyed being active in guilds (corps) and I got talked into taking a more active role in a WoW. With people I was close with. And sure enough someones feelings got hurt because they we'rnt getting enough attention and drama ensues.
I personally thought it was so childish (and it is). Its a game, lets all make alts an level them together if that was the issue, hell we'll make it guild event. But no people got butthurt (somehow) and all they wanted to do was run away and take their clique with them.
Happened in WoW a second time, not too long ago. I was active playing the game and doing guild things, to the point where I got volunteered as a GM, which was okay as some of the memebers were RL friends. I make friends easy, ended up close to a lot of the guild memebers that we'rnt RL friends. And when the Guild Leader had to stop playing for an extended time (money issues) I was 100% behind keeping the guild active and running. Although it was something I never really wanted.
Drama insues. RL friend who took over GL role decides to run the guild completley different. Well I stepped in and say they were out of line (privately), and boom the guild fractures. I now have a strained relationship with my friend and feel partly responsible things ended all messed up.
Can you believe that, almost losing a RL friend over a fucking game...stupid shit.
Thats when I decided that I play these games for enjoyment, my enjoyment, and Im going to play them without the drama. Which unfortunalety means thats also without the social aspect. That was about two years ago.
Just recently I tentatively been joining guilds again, but so far two weeks is as long as I can last.
For me its just a game, for a lot of others, its a way of life. I like to keep the two seperate.
*shrug*
My hope is still pinned on WoD, where drama is actually part of the game.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
@Scarfe: I don’t believe in white lies. I believe they often do more harm than good. I believe a better response is to just sugar coat the truth. Also, I believe it says a lot about a person who is too afraid to tell the truth and would choose to blatantly lie to your face multiple times.
@Sovrath: It’s beyond just trusting them as friends/guildmates. The whole point wasn’t that they left, it was that they were willing to scheme behind many of our backs, then tried to tear the guild apart.
@Mistmaker: “Welcome to the real world” is likely one of the biggest cop outs for bad human behavior. At least I am speaking out against it and talking about advancing ourselves for the better. Or perhaps shining a more “realistic” light on gaming behavior and how it isn’t far from real life afterall.
@Erictlewis: Many companies are different. In the game industry there are quite a few companies that have families that work there, let alone friends. Don’t agree with it? That’s the company’s problem, I guess.
As for playing solo, lately I’ve had less of an interested in MMORPGs. It seems to be because of the amount of guild drama that comes with running a decent sized guild. Perhaps why I took to playing Dishonored and Assassin’s Creed.
i have been in so many guilds where some disgruntled member left to form a new guild often on a pvp server with the intentions of crushing their former guild. My response to this is get a life, no one put a gun to your head and forced you into the first guild if you didn't like how things were going down leave, and if you don't you have no one to blame but yourself.
A certain amount of drama goes with being in a guild it shouldn't be this way but it often is. I am of the opinion that a fair amount of people online are posturing, that is they are super insecure and hence why they lash out at people so easily.
What i would add to this is the trolls, jerks whatever you wanna call them are in the minority , most gamers are not total jerks like some would have you believe, the problem is the jerks get so much attention , from the non-jerk community.
I am not so sure the Internet gets off scot free here. Anonymity actively corrodes trust. It doesn't just enable already existing preferences to lie, cheat or steal.
Social relationships are part of the human makeup. Technology has "virtualized" these connections and it is unclear what the long term impact will be.
Early indications are that social isolation is on the increase as technology advances. Young people in particular are becoming more awkward with face-to-face encounters, such as those typically needed for job interviews, since they aren't as used to them. Oral presentation skills suffer, handwriting skills are going the way of the Dodo, etc. It is no coincidence that so many MMO are turning into single player games with other people in the background but ultimately social interactions are unnecessary to enjoy the game.
This is being driven by a profit motive. Less social interactions means less hassle, more of a controlled environment and ultimately less overhead.
I don't think that the internet brings out the worst in people. I think for some its just the opposite. In real life I'm sarcastic, have a huge ego, and for lack of a better word at the moment, have an "alpha"-like attitude towards everyone around me.
Online, people tell me I'm kind, talkative, helpful, and completely unlike myself in real life. (Those that know me irl and ingame) Half of my friends PREFER to talk to me ingame or on facebook, etc. because I'm less overbearing.
Not sure why some people tend to get nastier online, but not everyone does. It would be interesting to see if anyone has done any kind of study on this behavior. Why do people like me tend to act nicer online, and some people get nastier?
It's like Halloween, only easier access. I think it helps people that get sick of themselves. That would facilitate the opposite behavior.
Also, I find this article and responses depressing. I'm a very trusting person. Every one I meet I trust until proven otherwise. Am I aware there are backstabbers and cynical people that would gladly screw me over? Of course. The difference is, I will be in a much better mood than you until it happens. I will continue to see people in a positive light while you are damning them as they walk by. I may be more shocked than some of you when I am betrayed, and it may happen more frequently because of my trusting nature, but I will be happier all the while and I think that's worth it.
Don't let the jerks paint your world view.
I'm with this here
I had my share of backstabbing, drama-inducing-things-which-affect-real life situation before.
As a solo player on WoW and RIFT I too had my share about rage on LFR/LFG/Dungeon Finder, Note: Usually I'm the one who's watching
In Real Life I too had my share on backstabbing at workplace, communities, and stuffs
The fun thing about having seen it all and feels it all I still didn't lose my faith on good-natured humans, yes there are initial rage, distrust, and those denial feelings but I came through
I don't think Internet bring the worse of people although I must also agree that anonimity has a major role on that. It's also one of the major factor when I started my guild on Guild Wars 2 not based on anonimity although some members prefers it, I encourage them to talk on Raidcall or Mumble and many of my guild mates share the same opinion as me. If I can create some 'good' environment while talking about our experiences on 'bad' ones, why not? It's better, at least for me and my guildmates.
One other major factor is competition, a good trigger for guild dramas (and real life dramas too) especially on MMOs with vertical achievements like WoW (Realm First) or PVP-oriented (EVE) I'm a casual player so I won't touch the subject, a non-competitive player like me usually will go to another MMO where I feel comfort with and stay there, kinda hard to do on real life though )
Something very similar to that happened to me in a guild that I created in Lineage II. People were leaving every day to join the new guild that a former member created, even a couple of guys that I had met in RL. I could not bear it so rather than watch them all leave I kicked out those who hadn't left yet so they wouldn't even have the chance to. I ended up alone in memberless guild with a castle that they of course took in the next scheduled siege.
I've never made a guild again or been truly involved with a guild since then, I haven't been able to muster the energy nor the enthusiasm anymore.
A wiser man than me said this: "Everyone tries to define this thing called Character. It's not hard. Character is doing what's right when nobody's looking." - J. C. Watts
That is the internet and even gaming in general for ya.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Great article Pocket, and one that many of us can identify with.
It is unfortunate that a person feels the need to lie to another. Even worse when the person who is lying has malicious intent. The truth, no matter how hard it may be, is way easier in the long run.
@Exilor: The are some really great gaming Organizations still out there that have been around for a very long time. Don't let a horrible experience keep you from making the next great one should the time ever come.
@Malvious: I disagree. Humans are the most compasionate creatures on the planet. It's just that we always hear about the bad things that happen rather than the good. Today's media tends to go for more "shock and awe" rather than carebear stories. Bad news sells
Great article Pocket, and one that many of us can identify with.
It is unfortunate that a person feels the need to lie to another. Even worse when the person who is lying has malicious intent. The truth, no matter how hard it may be, is way easier in the long run.
@Exilor: The are some really great gaming Organizations still out there that have been around for a very long time. Don't let a horrible experience keep you from making the next great one should the time ever come.
@Malvious: I disagree. Humans are the most compasionate creatures on the planet. It's just that we always hear about the bad things that happen rather than the good. Today's media tends to go for more "shock and awe" rather than carebear stories. Bad news sells
Your last paragraph: I would say that those in positions of power and those who strive to be there usually display the least desirable human traits, which is why we tend to hear bad news.
@ Pokket - Rejection hurts and that's what happened here. Those people rejected your friendship in favor of something else (in this case pixels generated by some server somewhere). It's petty to be sure. I understand it's upsetting. So much for the fuzzy part of my post.
First, I'm not sure that using your position here at MMORPG.com as a platform to complain about these particular people is appropriate. This can be viewed in a lot of lights and one of the obvious ones is here is someone elevating the drama in an attempt to gain sympathy and attention. That doesn't seem likely in your case since you seem to have all the attention you could possibly want, but I'll cite that as just one example of how this can reflect.
Second, if anyone out there doesn't like drama, the best way to avoid it is to simply not engage in it. The response is, "Hey, if you've got to go, then go. Since we've got some fundamental differences then it's probably best we parted ways." Every single person in the world can tell this same story. I'm not sure I can credit you with "speaking out" against some evil in the world when everyone has experienced it and dealt with it. Drama happens when you make more of something than it is, so be careful before you claim to be fighting the battle for the whole world. For some reason they felt the need to tell you a fib (that's what this qualifies as. They didn't steal RL money from you or ruin your relationship with your significant other) so maybe there might have been a vibe or something you were putting out that made them take this course as opposed to the direct, "we're leaving" method.
Third, be very cautious with the word "friend". Just because someone is on your friends list or in your guild in an MMO doesn't make them a friend. Just because you've heard their voice on Vent or met them IRL doesn't make them a friend. Shared experiences, shared values and mutual respect and affection make friends. I have a few friends that I met online, but they didn't become friends in the truest sense of the word until I shared real life experiences from birth to death and everything in between with them. Now that they are my friends, something as small as them wanting to change guilds because they want something different from a game than I do would not undermine our friendship. And because of our friendship they know this. Gaming is a portal to meeting people just like reading groups or anything else. Once the portal has done it's job of bringing people together then it's up to each of us to do the hard work of vetting and the vetting process is by nature long and discerning. (This could lead to a discussion of why I think communities in MMO have broken down so thoroughly, but I'm not going to drift off topic). Besides I don't think you want to impute the bad behavior of a few people to the entire human race, do you? That makes the world a truly dark place with little to no hope.
Warren Buffet has a famous quote about friendship. It goes, "I know a woman in her 80's, a Polish Jewish woman forced into a concentration camp with her family, but not all of them came out. She says, 'I am slow to make friends because when I look at people, I have one question in mind; would they hide me?'" I'm not saying your standards have to be quite that high, but they should be higher than, "I've known them in game for a few years and we talk every night on Vent."
I can't say I have a perfect track record in life, but I have developed a paradigm that works pretty well. I figure everyone out there is like a chunk of rock. You've got to chip away some of the outer layers to find out what's inside. Sometimes you find nothing but rock. Sometimes you find lead. Sometimes you find silver and, very rarely, sometimes you find gold. The trick is to keep each in the proper place in your life. I know a lot of people and I'm friendly with many of them, but I am friends with very few of them. Sure a friend is someone who will stick in the clutch and back you up, but they also are the people who will tell you things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to hear. To use a poker term, a friend is someone you'd go "all in" for and they would go "all in" for you. Simply put be careful who you bet your arse on.
So, figure this is like sticking your finger in the light socket when you were a kid. It hurt, but it didn't kill you and it taught you not to stick your finger in the light socket anymore. Take it, move on and remember it in the future. Maybe you're not cut out to be a Guild Leader, or maybe you just don't want the aggravation. In the meantime remember; Love many, trust few, do harm to none.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Since i started 2001 onlinegaming every single Guild/Clan/Group i joined got destroyed by jealousy, grief, drama, powermongering - there is not a single exception. Trust simply means you let your apples rott uncontrolled until the smell is to much to ignore (which is to late to repair anything). As games can not be the determing factor of your life simply enjoy the ride as long its fun and after that dont waste time beating dead horses.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
@ Pokket - Rejection hurts and that's what happened here. Those people rejected your friendship in favor of something else (in this case pixels generated by some server somewhere). It's petty to be sure. I understand it's upsetting. So much for the fuzzy part of my post.
First, I'm not sure that using your position here at MMORPG.com as a platform to complain about these particular people is appropriate. This can be viewed in a lot of lights and one of the obvious ones is here is someone elevating the drama in an attempt to gain sympathy and attention. That doesn't seem likely in your case since you seem to have all the attention you could possibly want, but I'll cite that as just one example of how this can reflect.
Second, if anyone out there doesn't like drama, the best way to avoid it is to simply not engage in it. The response is, "Hey, if you've got to go, then go. Since we've got some fundamental differences then it's probably best we parted ways." Every single person in the world can tell this same story. I'm not sure I can credit you with "speaking out" against some evil in the world when everyone has experienced it and dealt with it. Drama happens when you make more of something than it is, so be careful before you claim to be fighting the battle for the whole world. For some reason they felt the need to tell you a fib (that's what this qualifies as. They didn't steal RL money from you or ruin your relationship with your significant other) so maybe there might have been a vibe or something you were putting out that made them take this course as opposed to the direct, "we're leaving" method.
Third, be very cautious with the word "friend". Just because someone is on your friends list or in your guild in an MMO doesn't make them a friend. Just because you've heard their voice on Vent or met them IRL doesn't make them a friend. Shared experiences, shared values and mutual respect and affection make friends. I have a few friends that I met online, but they didn't become friends in the truest sense of the word until I shared real life experiences from birth to death and everything in between with them. Now that they are my friends, something as small as them wanting to change guilds because they want something different from a game than I do would not undermine our friendship. And because of our friendship they know this. Gaming is a portal to meeting people just like reading groups or anything else. Once the portal has done it's job of bringing people together then it's up to each of us to do the hard work of vetting and the vetting process is by nature long and discerning. (This could lead to a discussion of why I think communities in MMO have broken down so thoroughly, but I'm not going to drift off topic). Besides I don't think you want to impute the bad behavior of a few people to the entire human race, do you? That makes the world a truly dark place with little to no hope.
Warren Buffet has a famous quote about friendship. It goes, "I know a woman in her 80's, a Polish Jewish woman forced into a concentration camp with her family, but not all of them came out. She says, 'I am slow to make friends because when I look at people, I have one question in mind; would they hide me?'" I'm not saying your standards have to be quite that high, but they should be higher than, "I've known them in game for a few years and we talk every night on Vent."
I can't say I have a perfect track record in life, but I have developed a paradigm that works pretty well. I figure everyone out there is like a chunk of rock. You've got to chip away some of the outer layers to find out what's inside. Sometimes you find nothing but rock. Sometimes you find lead. Sometimes you find silver and, very rarely, sometimes you find gold. The trick is to keep each in the proper place in your life. I know a lot of people and I'm friendly with many of them, but I am friends with very few of them. Sure a friend is someone who will stick in the clutch and back you up, but they also are the people who will tell you things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to hear. To use a poker term, a friend is someone you'd go "all in" for and they would go "all in" for you. Simply put be careful who you bet your arse on.
So, figure this is like sticking your finger in the light socket when you were a kid. It hurt, but it didn't kill you and it taught you not to stick your finger in the light socket anymore. Take it, move on and remember it in the future. Maybe you're not cut out to be a Guild Leader, or maybe you just don't want the aggravation. In the meantime remember; Love many, trust few, do harm to none.
Got to agree with the three points you made but was too polite to say it in my first post.
I suspect it is just easier to be what you can be in virtual world: it is easier to be kind (all you have to do is to share virtual goods), it is also easier to be a jerk (no punishment in any way and you should not have to be physically strong). We are who we are without over troubling ourself. Guess, I only confirmed your article.
As a man I don't think I have ever experienced treacherous behaviour like that described by Pokket in real life.
Perhaps it's more of a girl-on-girl thing?!
I have experienced a huge amount of treacherous behaviour in Eve Online, but it's expected. Trying to identify spies is part of the fun.
In Eve Online I was once conned out of 1 BILLION ISK through somebody lying to me.
@Pokket - generally speaking, I don't believe in telling white lies either, but I think there might be very rare exeptions where a white lie is far kinder than telling the truth. The higher moral prinicple could well be "do no harm" particulaly if telling the truth leaves the person devistated for the rest of their lives yet still unable to do anything about the situation. I can't think of a good example that the average person would chance upon though.
I do understand your point of view and even share in your pain during the guild story (I too had that happen in a few of my guilds), but I have read many studies on this matter from professionals in the field of people behaivor and I can see where the internet and the veil of shadow (people not really knowing you) can cause people to act differently than they would if they were face to face with the person in real life. For me that is one of the reasons I love role playing games, but I still act with morality and honor even in my character's shoes.
The internet can NOT be the blame all for people's choices, just as much as I believe that violent video games/movies make people go out and commit massive murders. If anything lets blame parents and role models for their lack of setting good examples for kids. (A little sarcasm there also).
There will always be those people (real life and internet) that just want to be shady, scum, low-lifes and not much changes them. What needs to happen more is the ones that have some honor and moral standards to live a little louder (in and especially out of the internet world). Live and act as you would want others to treat you EVEN if they don't respond in kind because you know it is the right thing to do.
When I use to play WoW I would (during the holidays) go around to each city and randomly give out prizes or gold to people. Looking back on those days even now I can say were some of my best days in the game. The reactions people would respond with were funny. Some even asked if I was crazy because sometimes I gave away 100k to people, but it made their days and it was unexpected!
I guess what I am saying is their will ALWAYS be both in our worlds, just make a stand as to which one you want to be and live it loud!
Comments
It's like Halloween, only easier access. I think it helps people that get sick of themselves. That would facilitate the opposite behavior.
Also, I find this article and responses depressing. I'm a very trusting person. Every one I meet I trust until proven otherwise. Am I aware there are backstabbers and cynical people that would gladly screw me over? Of course. The difference is, I will be in a much better mood than you until it happens. I will continue to see people in a positive light while you are damning them as they walk by. I may be more shocked than some of you when I am betrayed, and it may happen more frequently because of my trusting nature, but I will be happier all the while and I think that's worth it.
Don't let the jerks paint your world view.
The moral of the story is people will do whatever they think they can get away with.
In our society we have let laws get lax and spend more time trying to protect the criminal than the victim and thus crime increases.
Do you ever speed while driving?
What about around a cop car?
I didn't think so.
Let people interact with other without that chance of the other person taking offense and pounding your face in and they will be the jackasses they truely are, because they can get away with it.
I could understand this happening in MMO's or other online games, BUT in real life I could never see this happening. All my friends, we've known each other for at least 10+ years. Even if we've had problems in the past, no one outside of the "main" circle would ever be able to break the friendship bonds between us.
There are ass hats and douche bags in every walk of life, guilds sometimes are ran by them.
Studies actually show that some people can't empathize through a keyboard -- this is to say, that they don't really believe that there is a feeling human being on the other side of the text they are responding to.
It's not anonymity that makes them jerks, it's the inability to imagine that text has a human author.
There are probably a few sociopaths that are genuinely trolling because of the shield of anonymity, but they are statistically much rarer. People who have issues with extending empathy through text media are more frequent in all likelihood.
Folks on the autism spectrum (and that includes us geeks with ADD/ADHD -- a *lot* of gamers!) actually have an easier time with empathy through the keyboard because it removes all those confusing body language cues and subtexts that can mess us up.
And geeks in general like contentious engagement -- avoiding small talk and diving into issues -- which can seem like all out war and escalate at a moment's notice. Hacker culture has been seen as very unfriendly due to this particularly to more traditional womens' culture.
As a woman engineer with 30 years on the net, and the former and founding executive director of the Tor Project (anonymity software) I've been fascinated with online identity and interactivity and specifically online anonymity for quite some years.
We tend to associate anonymity with "fear of strangers" rather than privacy or pseudonymity (having a handle, like a gamer handle, that identifies us persistently and carries a reputation with it). A handle can have as intense a reputation as a "real name" if not more so. When a sales dude calls ytou on the phone to sell you something they may give you a real (sounding?) name, but you might have no way to verify their name or reputation against anything. "Handles" like rms or esr in the hacker community come with recognition and reputation and credibility (or sometimes notoriety?) that can accrue for decades and make or break careers.
As pro gaming and the popularity of gaming in general spreads the same will be true for gamer handles, for reps in the gamer community, and for the linking of reputation across handles as folks try and perhaps fail to change identity between games and gamer social nets. It'll be interesting to see this context grow up.
Kind of funny but it was stuff like this that made me change from a guildie group player to a solo'er.
Ive always enjoyed being active in guilds (corps) and I got talked into taking a more active role in a WoW. With people I was close with. And sure enough someones feelings got hurt because they we'rnt getting enough attention and drama ensues.
I personally thought it was so childish (and it is). Its a game, lets all make alts an level them together if that was the issue, hell we'll make it guild event. But no people got butthurt (somehow) and all they wanted to do was run away and take their clique with them.
Happened in WoW a second time, not too long ago. I was active playing the game and doing guild things, to the point where I got volunteered as a GM, which was okay as some of the memebers were RL friends. I make friends easy, ended up close to a lot of the guild memebers that we'rnt RL friends. And when the Guild Leader had to stop playing for an extended time (money issues) I was 100% behind keeping the guild active and running. Although it was something I never really wanted.
Drama insues. RL friend who took over GL role decides to run the guild completley different. Well I stepped in and say they were out of line (privately), and boom the guild fractures. I now have a strained relationship with my friend and feel partly responsible things ended all messed up.
Can you believe that, almost losing a RL friend over a fucking game...stupid shit.
Thats when I decided that I play these games for enjoyment, my enjoyment, and Im going to play them without the drama. Which unfortunalety means thats also without the social aspect. That was about two years ago.
Just recently I tentatively been joining guilds again, but so far two weeks is as long as I can last.
For me its just a game, for a lot of others, its a way of life. I like to keep the two seperate.
*shrug*
My hope is still pinned on WoD, where drama is actually part of the game.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
@Scarfe: I don’t believe in white lies. I believe they often do more harm than good. I believe a better response is to just sugar coat the truth. Also, I believe it says a lot about a person who is too afraid to tell the truth and would choose to blatantly lie to your face multiple times.
@Sovrath: It’s beyond just trusting them as friends/guildmates. The whole point wasn’t that they left, it was that they were willing to scheme behind many of our backs, then tried to tear the guild apart.
@Mistmaker: “Welcome to the real world” is likely one of the biggest cop outs for bad human behavior. At least I am speaking out against it and talking about advancing ourselves for the better. Or perhaps shining a more “realistic” light on gaming behavior and how it isn’t far from real life afterall.
@Erictlewis: Many companies are different. In the game industry there are quite a few companies that have families that work there, let alone friends. Don’t agree with it? That’s the company’s problem, I guess.
As for playing solo, lately I’ve had less of an interested in MMORPGs. It seems to be because of the amount of guild drama that comes with running a decent sized guild. Perhaps why I took to playing Dishonored and Assassin’s Creed.
This is like the Jersey Shore of MMORPG.com. No, this is the Real House Wives.
Next week on VH1's Behind the MMO.........
i have been in so many guilds where some disgruntled member left to form a new guild often on a pvp server with the intentions of crushing their former guild. My response to this is get a life, no one put a gun to your head and forced you into the first guild if you didn't like how things were going down leave, and if you don't you have no one to blame but yourself.
A certain amount of drama goes with being in a guild it shouldn't be this way but it often is. I am of the opinion that a fair amount of people online are posturing, that is they are super insecure and hence why they lash out at people so easily.
What i would add to this is the trolls, jerks whatever you wanna call them are in the minority , most gamers are not total jerks like some would have you believe, the problem is the jerks get so much attention , from the non-jerk community.
I am not so sure the Internet gets off scot free here. Anonymity actively corrodes trust. It doesn't just enable already existing preferences to lie, cheat or steal.
Social relationships are part of the human makeup. Technology has "virtualized" these connections and it is unclear what the long term impact will be.
Early indications are that social isolation is on the increase as technology advances. Young people in particular are becoming more awkward with face-to-face encounters, such as those typically needed for job interviews, since they aren't as used to them. Oral presentation skills suffer, handwriting skills are going the way of the Dodo, etc. It is no coincidence that so many MMO are turning into single player games with other people in the background but ultimately social interactions are unnecessary to enjoy the game.
This is being driven by a profit motive. Less social interactions means less hassle, more of a controlled environment and ultimately less overhead.
I'm with this here
I had my share of backstabbing, drama-inducing-things-which-affect-real life situation before.
As a solo player on WoW and RIFT I too had my share about rage on LFR/LFG/Dungeon Finder, Note: Usually I'm the one who's watching
In Real Life I too had my share on backstabbing at workplace, communities, and stuffs
The fun thing about having seen it all and feels it all I still didn't lose my faith on good-natured humans, yes there are initial rage, distrust, and those denial feelings but I came through
I don't think Internet bring the worse of people although I must also agree that anonimity has a major role on that. It's also one of the major factor when I started my guild on Guild Wars 2 not based on anonimity although some members prefers it, I encourage them to talk on Raidcall or Mumble and many of my guild mates share the same opinion as me. If I can create some 'good' environment while talking about our experiences on 'bad' ones, why not? It's better, at least for me and my guildmates.
One other major factor is competition, a good trigger for guild dramas (and real life dramas too) especially on MMOs with vertical achievements like WoW (Realm First) or PVP-oriented (EVE) I'm a casual player so I won't touch the subject, a non-competitive player like me usually will go to another MMO where I feel comfort with and stay there, kinda hard to do on real life though
)
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
Something very similar to that happened to me in a guild that I created in Lineage II. People were leaving every day to join the new guild that a former member created, even a couple of guys that I had met in RL. I could not bear it so rather than watch them all leave I kicked out those who hadn't left yet so they wouldn't even have the chance to. I ended up alone in memberless guild with a castle that they of course took in the next scheduled siege.
I've never made a guild again or been truly involved with a guild since then, I haven't been able to muster the energy nor the enthusiasm anymore.
A wiser man than me said this:
"Everyone tries to define this thing called Character. It's not hard. Character is doing what's right when nobody's looking."
- J. C. Watts
That is the internet and even gaming in general for ya.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Great article Pocket, and one that many of us can identify with.
It is unfortunate that a person feels the need to lie to another. Even worse when the person who is lying has malicious intent. The truth, no matter how hard it may be, is way easier in the long run.
@Exilor: The are some really great gaming Organizations still out there that have been around for a very long time. Don't let a horrible experience keep you from making the next great one should the time ever come.
@Malvious: I disagree. Humans are the most compasionate creatures on the planet. It's just that we always hear about the bad things that happen rather than the good. Today's media tends to go for more "shock and awe" rather than carebear stories. Bad news sells
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Your last paragraph: I would say that those in positions of power and those who strive to be there usually display the least desirable human traits, which is why we tend to hear bad news.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
"Anyway, the game this happened in doesn't really matter (Wartune)"
Really Pokket, Wartune? Why are you wasting your time on that trashy browser grindfest??!!
Why not play a REAL MMO, and hope over to Yaks Bend, with GW2? I'll guild with you, and even let you call the guild "Hot Pokkets".
@ Pokket - Rejection hurts and that's what happened here. Those people rejected your friendship in favor of something else (in this case pixels generated by some server somewhere). It's petty to be sure. I understand it's upsetting. So much for the fuzzy part of my post.
First, I'm not sure that using your position here at MMORPG.com as a platform to complain about these particular people is appropriate. This can be viewed in a lot of lights and one of the obvious ones is here is someone elevating the drama in an attempt to gain sympathy and attention. That doesn't seem likely in your case since you seem to have all the attention you could possibly want, but I'll cite that as just one example of how this can reflect.
Second, if anyone out there doesn't like drama, the best way to avoid it is to simply not engage in it. The response is, "Hey, if you've got to go, then go. Since we've got some fundamental differences then it's probably best we parted ways." Every single person in the world can tell this same story. I'm not sure I can credit you with "speaking out" against some evil in the world when everyone has experienced it and dealt with it. Drama happens when you make more of something than it is, so be careful before you claim to be fighting the battle for the whole world. For some reason they felt the need to tell you a fib (that's what this qualifies as. They didn't steal RL money from you or ruin your relationship with your significant other) so maybe there might have been a vibe or something you were putting out that made them take this course as opposed to the direct, "we're leaving" method.
Third, be very cautious with the word "friend". Just because someone is on your friends list or in your guild in an MMO doesn't make them a friend. Just because you've heard their voice on Vent or met them IRL doesn't make them a friend. Shared experiences, shared values and mutual respect and affection make friends. I have a few friends that I met online, but they didn't become friends in the truest sense of the word until I shared real life experiences from birth to death and everything in between with them. Now that they are my friends, something as small as them wanting to change guilds because they want something different from a game than I do would not undermine our friendship. And because of our friendship they know this. Gaming is a portal to meeting people just like reading groups or anything else. Once the portal has done it's job of bringing people together then it's up to each of us to do the hard work of vetting and the vetting process is by nature long and discerning. (This could lead to a discussion of why I think communities in MMO have broken down so thoroughly, but I'm not going to drift off topic). Besides I don't think you want to impute the bad behavior of a few people to the entire human race, do you? That makes the world a truly dark place with little to no hope.
Warren Buffet has a famous quote about friendship. It goes, "I know a woman in her 80's, a Polish Jewish woman forced into a concentration camp with her family, but not all of them came out. She says, 'I am slow to make friends because when I look at people, I have one question in mind; would they hide me?'" I'm not saying your standards have to be quite that high, but they should be higher than, "I've known them in game for a few years and we talk every night on Vent."
I can't say I have a perfect track record in life, but I have developed a paradigm that works pretty well. I figure everyone out there is like a chunk of rock. You've got to chip away some of the outer layers to find out what's inside. Sometimes you find nothing but rock. Sometimes you find lead. Sometimes you find silver and, very rarely, sometimes you find gold. The trick is to keep each in the proper place in your life. I know a lot of people and I'm friendly with many of them, but I am friends with very few of them. Sure a friend is someone who will stick in the clutch and back you up, but they also are the people who will tell you things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to hear. To use a poker term, a friend is someone you'd go "all in" for and they would go "all in" for you. Simply put be careful who you bet your arse on.
So, figure this is like sticking your finger in the light socket when you were a kid. It hurt, but it didn't kill you and it taught you not to stick your finger in the light socket anymore. Take it, move on and remember it in the future. Maybe you're not cut out to be a Guild Leader, or maybe you just don't want the aggravation. In the meantime remember; Love many, trust few, do harm to none.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Since i started 2001 onlinegaming every single Guild/Clan/Group i joined got destroyed by jealousy, grief, drama, powermongering - there is not a single exception.
Trust simply means you let your apples rott uncontrolled until the smell is to much to ignore (which is to late to repair anything).
As games can not be the determing factor of your life simply enjoy the ride as long its fun and after that dont waste time beating dead horses.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Got to agree with the three points you made but was too polite to say it in my first post.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
As a man I don't think I have ever experienced treacherous behaviour like that described by Pokket in real life.
Perhaps it's more of a girl-on-girl thing?!
I have experienced a huge amount of treacherous behaviour in Eve Online, but it's expected. Trying to identify spies is part of the fun.
In Eve Online I was once conned out of 1 BILLION ISK through somebody lying to me.
@Pokket - generally speaking, I don't believe in telling white lies either, but I think there might be very rare exeptions where a white lie is far kinder than telling the truth. The higher moral prinicple could well be "do no harm" particulaly if telling the truth leaves the person devistated for the rest of their lives yet still unable to do anything about the situation. I can't think of a good example that the average person would chance upon though.
I do understand your point of view and even share in your pain during the guild story (I too had that happen in a few of my guilds), but I have read many studies on this matter from professionals in the field of people behaivor and I can see where the internet and the veil of shadow (people not really knowing you) can cause people to act differently than they would if they were face to face with the person in real life. For me that is one of the reasons I love role playing games, but I still act with morality and honor even in my character's shoes.
The internet can NOT be the blame all for people's choices, just as much as I believe that violent video games/movies make people go out and commit massive murders. If anything lets blame parents and role models for their lack of setting good examples for kids. (A little sarcasm there also).
There will always be those people (real life and internet) that just want to be shady, scum, low-lifes and not much changes them. What needs to happen more is the ones that have some honor and moral standards to live a little louder (in and especially out of the internet world). Live and act as you would want others to treat you EVEN if they don't respond in kind because you know it is the right thing to do.
When I use to play WoW I would (during the holidays) go around to each city and randomly give out prizes or gold to people. Looking back on those days even now I can say were some of my best days in the game. The reactions people would respond with were funny. Some even asked if I was crazy because sometimes I gave away 100k to people, but it made their days and it was unexpected!
I guess what I am saying is their will ALWAYS be both in our worlds, just make a stand as to which one you want to be and live it loud!