It's called "being a legitimate business person/company."
How do you expect people to think you'll release a quality product worth their hard earned money if you can't at least fake a presentable face to the consumer?
Being an "indie" doesn't give you the right to be a douche.
And if people are being douches towards you and attacking you personally, not as a business person or company, you're not allowed to react as a human and not as a company?
Would you be allowed to do that in any other company?
Point here is that it's HIS company to act however he pleases. If it was another company doesn't matter because it isn't another company.
This is the part the average gamer never thinks or cares about when attacking someone who develops games. if you go to any popular games forums, you will spend at least your entire read going through arm chair developers wanting the game to be custom made for a single individual. I'm an indie developers as well working on my own project with hero engine. I honeslty can say all these years of being a player I sometimes fall back to my very jaded gamer attitude in regards to my fellow developers games.
But most of the time it's players who think they can design a game on their own who proceed to dictate whats going to make your MMOG sail or fail. it's hard for indie developers because many of us still play MMORPGs. If we are not trying to figure out proxy nodes from killing AI when we cross seamless zones we are working untold hours and days making games.
I just want players to understand that we are gamers who are making our own games, and sometimes we react like gamers when attacked. it may not be the pro PR way but we are learning as we go along. I would rather reply to a person on my games forums then ignore them like many big development houses do, or simply say coming soon.
"Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor
It's called "being a legitimate business person/company."
How do you expect people to think you'll release a quality product worth their hard earned money if you can't at least fake a presentable face to the consumer?
Being an "indie" doesn't give you the right to be a douche.
And if people are being douches towards you and attacking you personally, not as a business person or company, you're not allowed to react as a human and not as a company?
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development,
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development,
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
And what "Piece" of technology do you think I was refering to? Asset Bundles? Those would have no effect on creating the Server side capabilities of having a Seamless World. Yes Client side has no issue with Seamless Worlds. Server side it's a known issue that Unity3D Can't handle Seamless Worlds out of the box.
We were banking on using uPikko from MuchDifferent... They wanted a Known (At least to me) amount of Rev. Share for the single uPikko License which wouldn't have included anything beyond uPikko. Plus we were told it wasn't even available to be licensed yet.
Our other option would have been to completely roll our own Seamless Technology. It would have taking several months or more just in research and development as well as would have been untested with it's own completely unknown issues.
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development,
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
And what "Piece" of technology do you think I was refering to? Asset Bundles? Those would have no effect on creating the Server side capabilities of having a Seamless World. Yes Client side has no issue with Seamless Worlds. Server side it's a known issue that Unity3D Can't handle Seamless Worlds out of the box.
We were banking on using uPikko from MuchDifferent... They wanted a Known (At least to me) amount of Rev. Share for the single uPikko License which wouldn't have included anything beyond uPikko. Plus we were told it wasn't even available to be licensed yet.
Our other option would have been to completely roll our own Seamless Technology. It would have taking several months or more just in research and development as well as would have been untested with it's own completely unknown issues.
Yes that was a kicker. It does require a bit more skill to seamless Unity with a client/server so that is cleared up.
The reason people are attacking GM is because of his attitude towards some people here.
As well as the flip-flopping on their KS project.
Originally there were gonna be only 3000 plots available, that could be purchased thru KS, then they added more and gave some excuse.
At first, the only cost was going to be buying a plot, or selling a plot they would take a % of that sale, now they are covering it up by blaming Hero, or Unity or whoever else they can. Now they might have to have a cash shop and/or subscription.
Here's an idea for future developers, find this stuff out AHEAD OF TIME, not after your KS project, not after you make all these announcements. They should have known all this stuff before they came up with the pricing policy.
This game at once showed potential, imo now its gonna be vaporware, or an under 1000 people type game
SW development in general, as well as gaming development, are highly changeable entities. Most of the time, the things you decide upfront are changed to something else due to learning new things, getting customer feedback and simply what is feasible and not feasible (in this case using Unity and finding out later that Hero is better suited).
So this "finding out stuff ahead of time" sounds like what is called the Waterfall model, which in general is considered a poor model for SW development. So at this early stage of development you should not take anything set in stone except that it will be a fantasy based MMO. Everything else is and should be up for debate.
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development,
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
And what "Piece" of technology do you think I was refering to? Asset Bundles? Those would have no effect on creating the Server side capabilities of having a Seamless World. Yes Client side has no issue with Seamless Worlds. Server side it's a known issue that Unity3D Can't handle Seamless Worlds out of the box.
We were banking on using uPikko from MuchDifferent... They wanted a Known (At least to me) amount of Rev. Share for the single uPikko License which wouldn't have included anything beyond uPikko. Plus we were told it wasn't even available to be licensed yet.
Our other option would have been to completely roll our own Seamless Technology. It would have taking several months or more just in research and development as well as would have been untested with it's own completely unknown issues.
Yes that was a kicker. It does require a bit more skill to seamless Unity with a client/server so that is cleared up.
Like I tried to edit in We COULD have rolled our own Solution. Would have added Months just in time for Research and Development which we didn't have. Plus it would have been a widely untested solution that could have added more unforeseen issues to increase development time even more. Personally I HATE to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
I've done alot with Unity for small scale personal Projects and I love it. It just wasn't the right engine to use for Greed Monger!
Two thoughts, like many of the trolls on this forum, I agree this particular indie dev could have been less rude and more professional. Indie gaming is about the likability of the company. If the company is full of 'ass hats' (like The War Z) then people will hate the developer and seek to punish them whenever they can.
If this whole interview was simply an apology from the developer for any confusion and an explanation of why the switch was required, it would have gone off smoother. On top of that it could have been used as a selling point IE: THE UNITY ENGINE WAS LIMITED WITH HERO WE CAN DO SO MUCH MORE THAT IS IN LINE WITH THE GOAL OF THE PROJECT.
[mod edit]
Second point,
Kickstarter is a crowd funding project that makes it so people can invest into a game. Once the money is received there is no qualification that the money has to be used exactly as shown. Once received the artists can choose to use that funding wherever they please.
Although this is supposed to be a game made for the fans, it's not a game that the fans design themselves. Wait until there is some alpha content to really jump on this game's flaws.
In our KickStarter we stated that we were using Unity3D. At that time we were banking on getting our hands on a specific piece of Technology that would have allowed us to have the seamless world we were planning on having. We then found out that piece of technology was still in development,
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
And what "Piece" of technology do you think I was refering to? Asset Bundles? Those would have no effect on creating the Server side capabilities of having a Seamless World. Yes Client side has no issue with Seamless Worlds. Server side it's a known issue that Unity3D Can't handle Seamless Worlds out of the box.
We were banking on using uPikko from MuchDifferent... They wanted a Known (At least to me) amount of Rev. Share for the single uPikko License which wouldn't have included anything beyond uPikko. Plus we were told it wasn't even available to be licensed yet.
Our other option would have been to completely roll our own Seamless Technology. It would have taking several months or more just in research and development as well as would have been untested with it's own completely unknown issues.
Yes that was a kicker. It does require a bit more skill to seamless Unity with a client/server so that is cleared up.
Like I tried to edit in We COULD have rolled our own Solution. Would have added Months just in time for Research and Development which we didn't have. Plus it would have been a widely untested solution that could have added more unforeseen issues to increase development time even more. Personally I HATE to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
I've done alot with Unity for small scale personal Projects and I love it. It just wasn't the right engine to use for Greed Monger!
As a SW developer (not gaming, unfourtunately) I strongly agree with the underlined statement. You should never re-invent the wheel unless you have a very strong reason to do so. There are tons of frameworks and libraries out there which provides many services which you can re-use so reinventing that service gives you more control but costs a lot more, in time and effort, than reusing an existing service.
Anyway the more I read your posts the more sense you make so I wish you the best of luck. You are doing what many of us would dream to do but keep in mind that you have games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and other even worse indy games which promised so much but delivered so little.
So the amount of suspicion and scepticism is naturally high right now. So it is not only a case of anonymity on the Internet there is also cases where us gamers got burnt when buying into indy MMOs. So as I hope you will be successul I am no longer going to bring out any cash or even be excited until I see something that works well and I think that is where these "negative" posts are coming from.
Like I tried to edit in We COULD have rolled our own Solution. Would have added Months just in time for Research and Development which we didn't have. Plus it would have been a widely untested solution that could have added more unforeseen issues to increase development time even more. Personally I HATE to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
I've done alot with Unity for small scale personal Projects and I love it. It just wasn't the right engine to use for Greed Monger!
I understand that no problem. Wish you well on HE.
The reason people are attacking GM is because of his attitude towards some people here.
As well as the flip-flopping on their KS project.
Originally there were gonna be only 3000 plots available, that could be purchased thru KS, then they added more and gave some excuse.
At first, the only cost was going to be buying a plot, or selling a plot they would take a % of that sale, now they are covering it up by blaming Hero, or Unity or whoever else they can. Now they might have to have a cash shop and/or subscription.
Here's an idea for future developers, find this stuff out AHEAD OF TIME, not after your KS project, not after you make all these announcements. They should have known all this stuff before they came up with the pricing policy.
This game at once showed potential, imo now its gonna be vaporware, or an under 1000 people type game
SW development in general, as well as gaming development, are highly changeable entities. Most of the time, the things you decide upfront are changed to something else due to learning new things, getting customer feedback and simply what is feasible and not feasible (in this case using Unity and finding out later that Hero is better suited).
So this "finding out stuff ahead of time" sounds like what is called the Waterfall model, which in general is considered a poor model for SW development. So at this early stage of development you should not take anything set in stone except that it will be a fantasy based MMO. Everything else is and should be up for debate.
yes while its still in early development, I have no problem. To me you take something to kickstarter you should at least have the engine determined, to me this is the biggest issue. I have always said, I will let the game speak for itself in the end, these guys are off to a rough start, but I still believe in the potential.
I am tired of Hero engine, its terrible for MMO's, so this is a huge drawback to me. Something that definitely changed my thoughts on GM. Also the 3000 to 6000 parcels swap was shady
The reason people are attacking GM is because of his attitude towards some people here.
As well as the flip-flopping on their KS project.
Originally there were gonna be only 3000 plots available, that could be purchased thru KS, then they added more and gave some excuse.
At first, the only cost was going to be buying a plot, or selling a plot they would take a % of that sale, now they are covering it up by blaming Hero, or Unity or whoever else they can. Now they might have to have a cash shop and/or subscription.
Here's an idea for future developers, find this stuff out AHEAD OF TIME, not after your KS project, not after you make all these announcements. They should have known all this stuff before they came up with the pricing policy.
This game at once showed potential, imo now its gonna be vaporware, or an under 1000 people type game
SW development in general, as well as gaming development, are highly changeable entities. Most of the time, the things you decide upfront are changed to something else due to learning new things, getting customer feedback and simply what is feasible and not feasible (in this case using Unity and finding out later that Hero is better suited).
So this "finding out stuff ahead of time" sounds like what is called the Waterfall model, which in general is considered a poor model for SW development. So at this early stage of development you should not take anything set in stone except that it will be a fantasy based MMO. Everything else is and should be up for debate.
yes while its still in early development, I have no problem. To me you take something to kickstarter you should at least have the engine determined, to me this is the biggest issue. I have always said, I will let the game speak for itself in the end, these guys are off to a rough start, but I still believe in the potential.
I am tired of Hero engine, its terrible for MMO's, so this is a huge drawback to me. Something that definitely changed my thoughts on GM. Also the 3000 to 6000 parcels swap was shady
We have tried to explain the increase in parcels on more then one occasion.
When we started our KickStarter campaign we thought the Game would have a small niche market. In all of our Development Chats we were hoping to have 1500 parcels accounted for by the end of our KickStarter Campaign. We then planned on Doubling that to 3,000 so we could launch with 1,500 parcels for sale in the first few months of the game being live.
We never dreamed that we would have the support of so many. In truth by the end of our KickStarter Campaign we had just OVER 3,000 parcels accounted for. The increase in parcels is just what we had been planning on doing all along, Doubling the amount of parcels that were accounted for by the end of the KickStarter.
If Jason hasn't cleared his Skype History I'm sure he could go back to October and find where we had been talking about that. I would but I got a new computer and Cleared my History when I switched over to the new computer.
Two thoughts, like many of the trolls on this forum, I agree this particular indie dev could have been less rude and more professional. Indie gaming is about the likability of the company. If the company is full of 'ass hats' (like The War Z) then people will hate the developer and seek to punish them whenever they can.
If this whole interview was simply an apology from the developer for any confusion and an explanation of why the switch was required, it would have gone off smoother. On top of that it could have been used as a selling point IE: THE UNITY ENGINE WAS LIMITED WITH HERO WE CAN DO SO MUCH MORE THAT IS IN LINE WITH THE GOAL OF THE PROJECT.
[mod edit]
Second point,
Kickstarter is a crowd funding project that makes it so people can invest into a game. Once the money is received there is no qualification that the money has to be used exactly as shown. Once received the artists can choose to use that funding wherever they please.
Although this is supposed to be a game made for the fans, it's not a game that the fans design themselves. Wait until there is some alpha content to really jump on this game's flaws.
Well said without really picking a side. We all know that there is a lack of good PR when it comes to certain people involved with GM, but that is a lesson learned not a lesson taught.
It is completely true that once the kickstarter finished, the fans have absolutely no say in what happens with the game. If the company all of a sudden decides that it believes that a Hello Kitty online sequel is a better choice with the kickstarter money it is up to them. Kickstarter literally says that it is up to the developer what they do with the money and if they believe you deserve a refund. At this point the best course of action is to sit back and let this one sink or swim on it's own accord.
The reason people are attacking GM is because of his attitude towards some people here.
As well as the flip-flopping on their KS project.
Originally there were gonna be only 3000 plots available, that could be purchased thru KS, then they added more and gave some excuse.
At first, the only cost was going to be buying a plot, or selling a plot they would take a % of that sale, now they are covering it up by blaming Hero, or Unity or whoever else they can. Now they might have to have a cash shop and/or subscription.
Here's an idea for future developers, find this stuff out AHEAD OF TIME, not after your KS project, not after you make all these announcements. They should have known all this stuff before they came up with the pricing policy.
This game at once showed potential, imo now its gonna be vaporware, or an under 1000 people type game
SW development in general, as well as gaming development, are highly changeable entities. Most of the time, the things you decide upfront are changed to something else due to learning new things, getting customer feedback and simply what is feasible and not feasible (in this case using Unity and finding out later that Hero is better suited).
So this "finding out stuff ahead of time" sounds like what is called the Waterfall model, which in general is considered a poor model for SW development. So at this early stage of development you should not take anything set in stone except that it will be a fantasy based MMO. Everything else is and should be up for debate.
yes while its still in early development, I have no problem. To me you take something to kickstarter you should at least have the engine determined, to me this is the biggest issue. I have always said, I will let the game speak for itself in the end, these guys are off to a rough start, but I still believe in the potential.
I am tired of Hero engine, its terrible for MMO's, so this is a huge drawback to me. Something that definitely changed my thoughts on GM. Also the 3000 to 6000 parcels swap was shady
We have tried to explain the increase in parcels on more then one occasion.
When we started our KickStarter campaign we thought the Game would have a small niche market. In all of our Development Chats we were hoping to have 1500 parcels accounted for by the end of our KickStarter Campaign. We then planned on Doubling that to 3,000 so we could launch with 1,500 parcels for sale in the first few months of the game being live.
We never dreamed that we would have the support of so many. In truth by the end of our KickStarter Campaign we had just OVER 3,000 parcels accounted for. The increase in parcels is just what we had been planning on doing all along, Doubling the amount of parcels that were accounted for by the end of the KickStarter.
If Jason hasn't cleared his Skype History I'm sure he could go back to October and find where we had been talking about that. I would but I got a new computer and Cleared my History when I switched over to the new computer.
James I know you guys have explained it numerous times, personally I hoped from the beginning there would be enough parcels and the numbers you started with seemed really low. I always thought you should start at 10k anyways. My point was, like I said I still have a lot of faith in the project so dont get me wrong, this was one of the issues that people have had a problem with. As well as the engine thing which is my biggest gripe, but not gamebreaking, and the public relations effects of Jason (which I dont have a problem with) cause I really just want a good game, and even if the biggest Ahole in the world made it (not saying that Jason is) I would buy it, cause we all just want a really good Sandbox again someday
With a game like this, it's really about balance and expectations.
Our goal is to provide enough parcels for everyone who wants them now, to have them, while keep the supply just short of demand to ensure a strong secondary market for those who decide to sell off their estates.
We had originally planned to double what was available but didnt expect the interest we recieved and still have a LOT of people emailing me and messaging me every day wanting to buy a pledge package. By the time we actually get close to Alpha, we will have, I'm sure, a great deal more interest in the game then, than we do now, so offering a follow up KS campaign for those who missed the first one won't be a detriment to the current backers.
So, overall, it's about supply and demand. Keep in mind, we also want to make sure that the world of greed monger grows rather than adding new servers from scratch, so those things need to be taken into account and planned for in advance as well to accomodate new players later.
As of right now, 6,000 player parcels are being designed into the world mass. That's where it will stay for quite some time, even if 30,000 people decide they want land of their own come launch day. I anticipate a mad house of speculation, buying and selling of property. But we'll see.
The point is, this wasn't about just bringing in more money. If all I was worried about was making money, I'd have accepted the over $20,000+ offered to me already since the KS campaign ended. There is much more to it and it is a balancing act.
I want to get the game further into development, guage the interest at a later date and then make the final decisions based on where we and the community interest is.
Hopeully that helps make a little more sense.
www.greedmonger.com Did you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!
Allot of neckbeards, basement dwellers and overall entitled prats running around MMOs these days... the same people who yell MMOs AREN'T KEWL LIKE THEY USED TO BE! are also the first to yell that a new MMO will fail because to them it feels to difficult to adjust to. Put bluntly you guys should shut the f**k up and let guys trying to innovate do their thing, the amount of crap thrown at Anet, the shitstorms which follow the announcement of a new MMO or a change in the direction of an MMO is just getting retarded, if you denizens of the deep dank basement put as much effort into your work/personal lives as you did spewing bile the world might be a brighter place.
Naeh.
GM is asking the public to fund them, so people are in fact entitled to question these guys when they make shady moves.
Couple that with a background in multiple different industries, and no experience at making mmo's.
Evidence / sources was presented to back up claims, it's up to the individual to study that and then make a desicion on the project..
But not speaking up, and just jumping right in, based on promises / hype, is the stupid way to go about it.
Like they always say, we vote with our wallet, and since GM is asking us to pay for a game that only exists in his head, the only way to go about it without just jumping in blind, is to question them.
And as soon as he was questioned, he went full forum-warrior mode, instead of being professional about it, the way he acted around here didn't help his cause, just fuelled the fire.
Until he proves he got a fun, solid game, I wouldn't trust this man with a cent.
I couldn't care less about his response. He made himself look like a amatuer on this site and people called him on it. Its clear to me he has no idea how much it truly cost to finish a mmo and I don't think this game will ever see the light of day. Much of why I think this way is because of his own words on these very forums. The game sounds like a cash grab and the guy behind it seems to be in over his head.
I don't know the full story and I'm guessing from this interview along with what everyone is saying that he didn't react well to the criticism. However, I noticed not too long ago, that a lot of people were criticizing Jason for his lack of specifically coding experience. And...everyone else who has been in charge of development of past MMOs has had coding experience? All it takes is someone with a great idea and the skill involved to get people to back you up. And it sounds like Jason did that. I say good on him. Good luck with the project. And screw everyone else.
With a game like this, it's really about balance and expectations.
Our goal is to provide enough parcels for everyone who wants them now, to have them, while keep the supply just short of demand to ensure a strong secondary market for those who decide to sell off their estates.
We had originally planned to double what was available but didnt expect the interest we recieved and still have a LOT of people emailing me and messaging me every day wanting to buy a pledge package. By the time we actually get close to Alpha, we will have, I'm sure, a great deal more interest in the game then, than we do now, so offering a follow up KS campaign for those who missed the first one won't be a detriment to the current backers.
So, overall, it's about supply and demand. Keep in mind, we also want to make sure that the world of greed monger grows rather than adding new servers from scratch, so those things need to be taken into account and planned for in advance as well to accomodate new players later.
As of right now, 6,000 player parcels are being designed into the world mass. That's where it will stay for quite some time, even if 30,000 people decide they want land of their own come launch day. I anticipate a mad house of speculation, buying and selling of property. But we'll see.
The point is, this wasn't about just bringing in more money. If all I was worried about was making money, I'd have accepted the over $20,000+ offered to me already since the KS campaign ended. There is much more to it and it is a balancing act.
I want to get the game further into development, guage the interest at a later date and then make the final decisions based on where we and the community interest is.
Hopeully that helps make a little more sense.
Well I have to say that I've found your dialouge in this thread a great improvement from everything I've seen before. More focus on actual points of interest and more transparency. The tone is professional, (In as much as one would expect from an indie developer. Yes, the expectation is different. I assume a level of secrecy and double talk from AAA teams simply because they have levels of labor and management to control and account for that goes beyond what a small team is doing,) and you've actually made me enjoy reading what you have to say.
In a small way, I actually feel a little bad for what I posted earlier. Not because I feel that it was wrong, per se, but because I didn't actually expect you to come back here and present yourself in this way. Even if I had, it certainly would not have been expected this soon. If nothing else, you have changed my view of you and your team in a small, but very meaningful, way. The little missteps your programmers and designers make in conversation I can ignore because their role in this is different and I understand what it means to be emotionally invested in a creative work that your hands have made. They are not held to the same standard you are, and will be in the future going forward from this. Good job at least making strides in the right direction.
Just remember that this is a very different consumer than you've been dealing with. Also remember that there are people here that aren't mindless villains waiting to destroy the next big thing. Just because we don't speak as often as the others does not mean we read the posts any less. Always speak as though you are speaking to us and not them, because its the reasonable and thoughtful silent majority you want to hear you. We will be the ones considering a purchase. Our views are even more dangerous than a troll. People ignore trolling. The friends we talk to and the people we deal with are going to listen to our opinions with a great deal more weight than what a random forum troll will get. I know that this level of separation, speaking to an audience you cannot see on the page, is very hard. But its vital, and I'm betting that looking at it in that way will help a great deal when deciding how best to respond to these issues.
This appleton guy got mad because someone was talking shit about him/ his game on the internet. Absolutely terrible. Shouldnt he be making his game rather than feeding trolls on the internet? I still dont think he gets it... its not about whether the poster was right or wrong. Its about you doing your job ie. not getting into fights with internet trolls....
All these indie mmorpgs led my devs with no experiences are pretty much guaranteed fails. This Jason Appleton dude has zero industry experience let alone a simple game under his belt. Why would anyone fund this project?
Watching the kickstarter video makes me puke. "we're not even serverside yet" -- wtf does that mean? sounds like this dude has no idea what he is talking about. All the kickstarter shows is a bunch of 3d models, uninspiring art style, no gameplay, no demonstration of multiplayer, no combat, no spells just nothing. FFS they are still deciding what game engine they are going to use.... vaporware for sure
Comments
Point here is that it's HIS company to act however he pleases. If it was another company doesn't matter because it isn't another company.
This is the part the average gamer never thinks or cares about when attacking someone who develops games. if you go to any popular games forums, you will spend at least your entire read going through arm chair developers wanting the game to be custom made for a single individual. I'm an indie developers as well working on my own project with hero engine. I honeslty can say all these years of being a player I sometimes fall back to my very jaded gamer attitude in regards to my fellow developers games.
we are working untold hours and days making games.
But most of the time it's players who think they can design a game on their own who proceed to dictate whats going to make your MMOG sail or fail. it's hard for indie developers because many of us still play MMORPGs. If we are not trying to figure out proxy nodes from killing AI when we cross seamless zones
I just want players to understand that we are gamers who are making our own games, and sometimes we react like gamers when attacked. it may not be the pro PR way but we are learning as we go along. I would rather reply to a person on my games forums then ignore them like many big development houses do, or simply say coming soon.
"Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor
Nope, not even once.
This piece of technology has been available in Unity pro since 2009 in which I personally tested it., It works a lot better than HE since it does back ground streaming.
Reason I am calling you out on it is becasue that it a untruth to this engine.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
And what "Piece" of technology do you think I was refering to? Asset Bundles? Those would have no effect on creating the Server side capabilities of having a Seamless World. Yes Client side has no issue with Seamless Worlds. Server side it's a known issue that Unity3D Can't handle Seamless Worlds out of the box.
We were banking on using uPikko from MuchDifferent... They wanted a Known (At least to me) amount of Rev. Share for the single uPikko License which wouldn't have included anything beyond uPikko. Plus we were told it wasn't even available to be licensed yet.
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
Yes that was a kicker. It does require a bit more skill to seamless Unity with a client/server so that is cleared up.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
SW development in general, as well as gaming development, are highly changeable entities. Most of the time, the things you decide upfront are changed to something else due to learning new things, getting customer feedback and simply what is feasible and not feasible (in this case using Unity and finding out later that Hero is better suited).
So this "finding out stuff ahead of time" sounds like what is called the Waterfall model, which in general is considered a poor model for SW development. So at this early stage of development you should not take anything set in stone except that it will be a fantasy based MMO. Everything else is and should be up for debate.
My gaming blog
Like I tried to edit in We COULD have rolled our own Solution. Would have added Months just in time for Research and Development which we didn't have. Plus it would have been a widely untested solution that could have added more unforeseen issues to increase development time even more. Personally I HATE to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
I've done alot with Unity for small scale personal Projects and I love it. It just wasn't the right engine to use for Greed Monger!
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
Two thoughts, like many of the trolls on this forum, I agree this particular indie dev could have been less rude and more professional. Indie gaming is about the likability of the company. If the company is full of 'ass hats' (like The War Z) then people will hate the developer and seek to punish them whenever they can.
If this whole interview was simply an apology from the developer for any confusion and an explanation of why the switch was required, it would have gone off smoother. On top of that it could have been used as a selling point IE: THE UNITY ENGINE WAS LIMITED WITH HERO WE CAN DO SO MUCH MORE THAT IS IN LINE WITH THE GOAL OF THE PROJECT.
[mod edit]
Second point,
Kickstarter is a crowd funding project that makes it so people can invest into a game. Once the money is received there is no qualification that the money has to be used exactly as shown. Once received the artists can choose to use that funding wherever they please.
Although this is supposed to be a game made for the fans, it's not a game that the fans design themselves. Wait until there is some alpha content to really jump on this game's flaws.
Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker
As a SW developer (not gaming, unfourtunately) I strongly agree with the underlined statement. You should never re-invent the wheel unless you have a very strong reason to do so. There are tons of frameworks and libraries out there which provides many services which you can re-use so reinventing that service gives you more control but costs a lot more, in time and effort, than reusing an existing service.
Anyway the more I read your posts the more sense you make so I wish you the best of luck. You are doing what many of us would dream to do but keep in mind that you have games like Darkfall, Mortal Online and other even worse indy games which promised so much but delivered so little.
So the amount of suspicion and scepticism is naturally high right now. So it is not only a case of anonymity on the Internet there is also cases where us gamers got burnt when buying into indy MMOs. So as I hope you will be successul I am no longer going to bring out any cash or even be excited until I see something that works well and I think that is where these "negative" posts are coming from.
My gaming blog
I understand that no problem. Wish you well on HE.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
yes while its still in early development, I have no problem. To me you take something to kickstarter you should at least have the engine determined, to me this is the biggest issue. I have always said, I will let the game speak for itself in the end, these guys are off to a rough start, but I still believe in the potential.
I am tired of Hero engine, its terrible for MMO's, so this is a huge drawback to me. Something that definitely changed my thoughts on GM. Also the 3000 to 6000 parcels swap was shady
We have tried to explain the increase in parcels on more then one occasion.
When we started our KickStarter campaign we thought the Game would have a small niche market. In all of our Development Chats we were hoping to have 1500 parcels accounted for by the end of our KickStarter Campaign. We then planned on Doubling that to 3,000 so we could launch with 1,500 parcels for sale in the first few months of the game being live.
We never dreamed that we would have the support of so many. In truth by the end of our KickStarter Campaign we had just OVER 3,000 parcels accounted for. The increase in parcels is just what we had been planning on doing all along, Doubling the amount of parcels that were accounted for by the end of the KickStarter.
If Jason hasn't cleared his Skype History I'm sure he could go back to October and find where we had been talking about that. I would but I got a new computer and Cleared my History when I switched over to the new computer.
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
Well said without really picking a side. We all know that there is a lack of good PR when it comes to certain people involved with GM, but that is a lesson learned not a lesson taught.
It is completely true that once the kickstarter finished, the fans have absolutely no say in what happens with the game. If the company all of a sudden decides that it believes that a Hello Kitty online sequel is a better choice with the kickstarter money it is up to them. Kickstarter literally says that it is up to the developer what they do with the money and if they believe you deserve a refund. At this point the best course of action is to sit back and let this one sink or swim on it's own accord.
James I know you guys have explained it numerous times, personally I hoped from the beginning there would be enough parcels and the numbers you started with seemed really low. I always thought you should start at 10k anyways. My point was, like I said I still have a lot of faith in the project so dont get me wrong, this was one of the issues that people have had a problem with. As well as the engine thing which is my biggest gripe, but not gamebreaking, and the public relations effects of Jason (which I dont have a problem with) cause I really just want a good game, and even if the biggest Ahole in the world made it (not saying that Jason is) I would buy it, cause we all just want a really good Sandbox again someday
I don't know what the state of the game is, or what's going on with kickstarter, but I respect the guy for going for it.
Keep it up, keep doing it your way. I hope you can make a hell of a game.
We are posting almost daily updates on our progress now over on our forum if your interested in keeping track!
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
With a game like this, it's really about balance and expectations.
Our goal is to provide enough parcels for everyone who wants them now, to have them, while keep the supply just short of demand to ensure a strong secondary market for those who decide to sell off their estates.
We had originally planned to double what was available but didnt expect the interest we recieved and still have a LOT of people emailing me and messaging me every day wanting to buy a pledge package. By the time we actually get close to Alpha, we will have, I'm sure, a great deal more interest in the game then, than we do now, so offering a follow up KS campaign for those who missed the first one won't be a detriment to the current backers.
So, overall, it's about supply and demand. Keep in mind, we also want to make sure that the world of greed monger grows rather than adding new servers from scratch, so those things need to be taken into account and planned for in advance as well to accomodate new players later.
As of right now, 6,000 player parcels are being designed into the world mass. That's where it will stay for quite some time, even if 30,000 people decide they want land of their own come launch day. I anticipate a mad house of speculation, buying and selling of property. But we'll see.
The point is, this wasn't about just bringing in more money. If all I was worried about was making money, I'd have accepted the over $20,000+ offered to me already since the KS campaign ended. There is much more to it and it is a balancing act.
I want to get the game further into development, guage the interest at a later date and then make the final decisions based on where we and the community interest is.
Hopeully that helps make a little more sense.
www.greedmonger.com
Did you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!
Naeh.
GM is asking the public to fund them, so people are in fact entitled to question these guys when they make shady moves.
Couple that with a background in multiple different industries, and no experience at making mmo's.
Evidence / sources was presented to back up claims, it's up to the individual to study that and then make a desicion on the project..
But not speaking up, and just jumping right in, based on promises / hype, is the stupid way to go about it.
Like they always say, we vote with our wallet, and since GM is asking us to pay for a game that only exists in his head, the only way to go about it without just jumping in blind, is to question them.
And as soon as he was questioned, he went full forum-warrior mode, instead of being professional about it, the way he acted around here didn't help his cause, just fuelled the fire.
Until he proves he got a fun, solid game, I wouldn't trust this man with a cent.
Well I have to say that I've found your dialouge in this thread a great improvement from everything I've seen before. More focus on actual points of interest and more transparency. The tone is professional, (In as much as one would expect from an indie developer. Yes, the expectation is different. I assume a level of secrecy and double talk from AAA teams simply because they have levels of labor and management to control and account for that goes beyond what a small team is doing,) and you've actually made me enjoy reading what you have to say.
In a small way, I actually feel a little bad for what I posted earlier. Not because I feel that it was wrong, per se, but because I didn't actually expect you to come back here and present yourself in this way. Even if I had, it certainly would not have been expected this soon. If nothing else, you have changed my view of you and your team in a small, but very meaningful, way. The little missteps your programmers and designers make in conversation I can ignore because their role in this is different and I understand what it means to be emotionally invested in a creative work that your hands have made. They are not held to the same standard you are, and will be in the future going forward from this. Good job at least making strides in the right direction.
Just remember that this is a very different consumer than you've been dealing with. Also remember that there are people here that aren't mindless villains waiting to destroy the next big thing. Just because we don't speak as often as the others does not mean we read the posts any less. Always speak as though you are speaking to us and not them, because its the reasonable and thoughtful silent majority you want to hear you. We will be the ones considering a purchase. Our views are even more dangerous than a troll. People ignore trolling. The friends we talk to and the people we deal with are going to listen to our opinions with a great deal more weight than what a random forum troll will get. I know that this level of separation, speaking to an audience you cannot see on the page, is very hard. But its vital, and I'm betting that looking at it in that way will help a great deal when deciding how best to respond to these issues.
This appleton guy got mad because someone was talking shit about him/ his game on the internet. Absolutely terrible. Shouldnt he be making his game rather than feeding trolls on the internet? I still dont think he gets it... its not about whether the poster was right or wrong. Its about you doing your job ie. not getting into fights with internet trolls....
All these indie mmorpgs led my devs with no experiences are pretty much guaranteed fails. This Jason Appleton dude has zero industry experience let alone a simple game under his belt. Why would anyone fund this project?
Watching the kickstarter video makes me puke. "we're not even serverside yet" -- wtf does that mean? sounds like this dude has no idea what he is talking about. All the kickstarter shows is a bunch of 3d models, uninspiring art style, no gameplay, no demonstration of multiplayer, no combat, no spells just nothing. FFS they are still deciding what game engine they are going to use.... vaporware for sure