Originally posted by Broomy Loved GW2 until I entered the clusterf--k known as their dungeon instances. Mob aggro everywhere, people dying and "running back", just a hotmess. "Good players" cant excel in that kind of chaos. I went running right back to the Trinity based MMOs. Someone, someday will build a better non-trinity mechanic and until that day I'll stay with the trinity.
Er.. actually, good players ARE the ones that excel in those situations. There is an aggro system, you just don't always understand it on the first try. God forbid you have to learn how certain types of enemies prioritize their targets. Let's make it simple and give all the aggro to one person in the group. After all, it's not like that ever got old.
Oh good. You seem to know it all. Can you explain how in the hell the following happens and what we can do about it? Thanks.
Yes please do tell how the aggro system works , because it seems that ANET is keeping it a secret ......
I don't really think one way to do it is better then the other. I think it comes down to preference. There are weak points to both systems for sure. I would love to see more games going to the route of "no trinity" but at the same time I still want to see the holy trinity in other games.
Stop calling it "Trinity" because WoW standardized this genre to its shallowest form.
Call it "Role Specific Classes" or whatever. It's the fact that you need to play a ROLE in a group, it doesn't have to be Tank, Healer and DPS.
For a group to make sense, in my humble opinion and 30 years experience in games, you need to give some roles to group members. If everyone was doing the same thing in a group.... the experience become stupid (to me at least). You need roles, you need people working together to overcome challenges.
I really want this to be expanded upon. EverQuest added many roles like the Tank, Healer, Crowd Control, Puller, Debuffer, Damage Dealers. Why are we dumping it down to just Tank, Healer and DPS is beyond me.
Im playing both, GW2 gives me a nice experience of non vlass specificy (I play elementalist condition) and Rift subbed/WOW tbc private server for my hit of class specific.
Its great having both styles to choose from, long may it last.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.
This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.
Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging.
I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.
Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.
I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.
This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.
Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging.
I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.
Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.
Agree with first sentence. The rest is just 'I like A and dont Like B so its rubbish' im afraid. Having both types (and more) is healthy for all players.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.
This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.
Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging.
I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.
Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.
Agree with first sentence. The rest is just 'I like A and dont Like B so its rubbish' im afraid. Having both types (and more) is healthy for all players.
There is both types, they can have GW2 and wildstarr and we who like the trinity will have games like TESO and ArcheAge.
IMO trinity works best for PvE centered games and it hurts PvP centric games.
If a game is not designed to accomodate tanks and hybrids in PvP (like WoW is) the most players will be forced to take a route to make them viable in PvP (dps and healer). I GW2 I like the fact that you can be a dps/support and the support part varies from healing, CC, debuffer, buffer. Even Rift, which many call it a WoW clone, offeres the player the option to be a support, granted it is very, very limited, but it has the option.
In conclusion I think not the trinity system is wrong, the game designers are the ones responsible to make it work for their game and in all situations; if they focus more on one part then the other will be a bad experience (WoW focused more on PvE and GW2 focused more on PvP and it shows in both).
I never saw a problem with how WoW did it, with talents you could play many roles. I mean as a Druid I could play Tank, Damage dealer or a healer and yet the trinity still existed because you couldn't do it all at the same time. As a priest I could be a healer or a damage dealer and every class had at least two roles. It's the best class system out of any MMO I've played which uses one.
It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well. That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.
I am not a "fan" of trinity, but I am a fan of grouping. If the only way games can be designed for grouping then trinity is fine.
Designing MMO's for solo play means you won't have any structure what so ever. Thats nearly where we are now.
I strongly disagree with you...
If GW2 did something good was exactly that,allowing and easening grouping. That is just your own opinion and does not mean you are right, you don't speak for everyone else.
You don´t need to wait for a healer or a Tank to show up anymore...
You don´t need to look for specific roles,you simply look for mates. ANYONE can join & help!!!!
Grouping has NEVER EVER been before so rewarding and easy like it is in Guild Wars 2! Again that's just your opinion and does not make it so.
I'm glad you love GW2's system, you can play GW2 and we who like the trinity can play games like TESO.
Originally posted by observer It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well. That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.
There is a threat mechanic in GW2, it's just not as simple as WoW's.
The way threat works in GW2 is this:
Toughness, Damage Output, Lowest Health, Closeness to the Target
The person who best fulfills the majority of these categories basically grabs aggro. Of course, there are some exceptions on certain bosses (like the berzerker in CoE), but that's how the majority of the game's AI works. It's also the reason why so many glass cannons have problems staying alive in this game. They go into a dungeon with literally ~13-15k HP, hitting like a nuclear missle, of course the boss is going to focus on them.
Furthermore these numbers are dynamic. They constantly change, which is why sometimes someone will get hit hard by an attack, then keep getting hit once they're at low health. However, once you understand this threat table, it's fairly easy to manage your threat lvl with a little bit of pacing / kiting.
- On Topic: I would really like to see more players getting AWAY from the trinity mindset. The whole concept of 'the trinity' is something fairly unique to MMOs specifically. This is because when technology was new, it was easier to design a game around such a simple system. However, imho, it's a fairly dull (and contrived) method of combat; one which we have already seen the flaws in, and have already been shown is no longer necessary.
I enjoy the trinity system in small doses, but it's going to be very hard to have more interesting MMOs, until we can move passed such an archaic design philosophy. I'd love to see more games implement ways for players to experiment and come up w/ group comps that they enjoy, rather than being forced to play with class X, or class Y to get anything done. That's one of the things I enjoy about GW2; provided the players are competent, you can literally do the content w/ any combination of classes.
Originally posted by observer It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well. That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.
As post above states there is a threat mechanic and its very well implemented. you use boons/defenses/kiting to manage aggro and to drop it again. Whats more you can use it to your advantage if you have fine enough control - grabbing aggro of those in trouble etc etc. Where it does become chatoic is where you have 5 glasss cannons going hell for leather with their 'dps' and running through/past every room they can.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Another vote for trinity or "Role Specific Classes". After playing gw2 and finding the lack of trinity boring ,especially in pvp (maybe because I enjoy playing healers in pvp ) I doubt I will try another game without role specific classes in the future.Someone said tanks are useless in pvp, that is not true, the only game where I enjoyed playing a tank was warhammer online where as a tank you could be quite useful in pvp battles,hopefully more games will copy collision detection and the rest of tank mechanics from warhammer in the future. I am also hoping some games bring back other roles beside healer,tank,dps like buffer (and not just for your party like a lot of new games seem to do it) or crowd control (this probably should be done very carefully in a pvp game to avoid players spending whole fights unable to control their character).
For all you ppl that want the heal/tank class back including myself, Stop supporting the games that are released without.
Simple money speaks.
look at the numbers in this poll a pretty good example that we are not in the minority as some would like you to beleave.
Sticking with Vanguard till something better comes along.
if my time at mmorpg.com has taught me anything the "majority" here is generally never what the general masses wants or feels in terms of pretty much anything
Wowsers I agree with Aerowyn. Hell has frozen over
The "trinity" is just a method, one that's evolved in the genre because it's effective and understandable, and fits well into a roleplaying game. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it.
"Anything would be better than the trinity" is not a true statement. To me, GW2 has proven that there are much worse systems with the one they implemented. Different isn't always better, and change for the sake of change can result in something worse than the original.
If a game is going to replace the trinity with "something else", they should probably ensure that it's better.
Originally posted by observer It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well. That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.
Wasn't implimented well = I didn't understand it.
The aggro mechanic is just complicated compared to a trinity game, that's the precise reason most people don't get it. They're used to having their mobs do exactly what they want.
Comments
Yes please do tell how the aggro system works , because it seems that ANET is keeping it a secret ......
http://mmocultgr.blogspot.com
Stop calling it "Trinity" because WoW standardized this genre to its shallowest form.
Call it "Role Specific Classes" or whatever. It's the fact that you need to play a ROLE in a group, it doesn't have to be Tank, Healer and DPS.
For a group to make sense, in my humble opinion and 30 years experience in games, you need to give some roles to group members. If everyone was doing the same thing in a group.... the experience become stupid (to me at least). You need roles, you need people working together to overcome challenges.
I really want this to be expanded upon. EverQuest added many roles like the Tank, Healer, Crowd Control, Puller, Debuffer, Damage Dealers. Why are we dumping it down to just Tank, Healer and DPS is beyond me.
To be honest. I like both systems for different reasons.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
Im playing both, GW2 gives me a nice experience of non vlass specificy (I play elementalist condition) and Rift subbed/WOW tbc private server for my hit of class specific.
Its great having both styles to choose from, long may it last.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I think the holy trio is a good system but I also think GW2's way of having a sort of a dynamic 'holy trio' can also work.
I will say GW2 really should have explained their system better though to ANet's credit, they do acknowledge that their tutorial is god-awful.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.
Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.
NO WAY i can go back to be attached to a role (tank,healer or dps)
Now I´m a human Thief....or a BIG bad ass Norn Guardian or an Elementalist...and play the best i can, everyway i can,depends on the moment.
If GW2 did something good...was exactly that !!!
And the grouping system where everyone share Exp + loot + collaboration is rewarded!
Do you really want to be back to that Tank /heal/dps punishment?
NOT me TY!
BTW:
GW2 ALWAYS warned about it´s role system!
It´s not like you can be deceived by that! Maybe it´s just you wanted GW2 to be "the game you want for yourself"
Agree with first sentence. The rest is just 'I like A and dont Like B so its rubbish' im afraid. Having both types (and more) is healthy for all players.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
There is both types, they can have GW2 and wildstarr and we who like the trinity will have games like TESO and ArcheAge.
See, everyone is happy.
I am not a "fan" of trinity, but I am a fan of grouping. If the only way games can be designed for grouping then trinity is fine.
Designing MMO's for solo play means you won't have any structure what so ever. Thats nearly where we are now.
IMO trinity works best for PvE centered games and it hurts PvP centric games.
If a game is not designed to accomodate tanks and hybrids in PvP (like WoW is) the most players will be forced to take a route to make them viable in PvP (dps and healer). I GW2 I like the fact that you can be a dps/support and the support part varies from healing, CC, debuffer, buffer. Even Rift, which many call it a WoW clone, offeres the player the option to be a support, granted it is very, very limited, but it has the option.
In conclusion I think not the trinity system is wrong, the game designers are the ones responsible to make it work for their game and in all situations; if they focus more on one part then the other will be a bad experience (WoW focused more on PvE and GW2 focused more on PvP and it shows in both).
just my $0.02
V.
I strongly disagree with you...
If GW2 did something good was exactly that,allowing and easening grouping.
You don´t need to wait for a healer or a Tank to show up anymore...
You don´t need to look for specific roles,you simply look for mates. ANYONE can join & help!!!!
Grouping has NEVER EVER been before so rewarding and easy like it is in Guild Wars 2!
I never saw a problem with how WoW did it, with talents you could play many roles. I mean as a Druid I could play Tank, Damage dealer or a healer and yet the trinity still existed because you couldn't do it all at the same time. As a priest I could be a healer or a damage dealer and every class had at least two roles. It's the best class system out of any MMO I've played which uses one.
Sadly though WoW got turned to shit.
I'm glad you love GW2's system, you can play GW2 and we who like the trinity can play games like TESO.
Everyone is happy, right?
There is a threat mechanic in GW2, it's just not as simple as WoW's.
The way threat works in GW2 is this:
Toughness, Damage Output, Lowest Health, Closeness to the Target
The person who best fulfills the majority of these categories basically grabs aggro. Of course, there are some exceptions on certain bosses (like the berzerker in CoE), but that's how the majority of the game's AI works. It's also the reason why so many glass cannons have problems staying alive in this game. They go into a dungeon with literally ~13-15k HP, hitting like a nuclear missle, of course the boss is going to focus on them.
Furthermore these numbers are dynamic. They constantly change, which is why sometimes someone will get hit hard by an attack, then keep getting hit once they're at low health. However, once you understand this threat table, it's fairly easy to manage your threat lvl with a little bit of pacing / kiting.
- On Topic: I would really like to see more players getting AWAY from the trinity mindset. The whole concept of 'the trinity' is something fairly unique to MMOs specifically. This is because when technology was new, it was easier to design a game around such a simple system. However, imho, it's a fairly dull (and contrived) method of combat; one which we have already seen the flaws in, and have already been shown is no longer necessary.
I enjoy the trinity system in small doses, but it's going to be very hard to have more interesting MMOs, until we can move passed such an archaic design philosophy. I'd love to see more games implement ways for players to experiment and come up w/ group comps that they enjoy, rather than being forced to play with class X, or class Y to get anything done. That's one of the things I enjoy about GW2; provided the players are competent, you can literally do the content w/ any combination of classes.
As post above states there is a threat mechanic and its very well implemented. you use boons/defenses/kiting to manage aggro and to drop it again. Whats more you can use it to your advantage if you have fine enough control - grabbing aggro of those in trouble etc etc. Where it does become chatoic is where you have 5 glasss cannons going hell for leather with their 'dps' and running through/past every room they can.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Another vote for trinity or "Role Specific Classes". After playing gw2 and finding the lack of trinity boring ,especially in pvp (maybe because I enjoy playing healers in pvp ) I doubt I will try another game without role specific classes in the future.Someone said tanks are useless in pvp, that is not true, the only game where I enjoyed playing a tank was warhammer online where as a tank you could be quite useful in pvp battles,hopefully more games will copy collision detection and the rest of tank mechanics from warhammer in the future.
I am also hoping some games bring back other roles beside healer,tank,dps like buffer (and not just for your party like a lot of new games seem to do it) or crowd control (this probably should be done very carefully in a pvp game to avoid players spending whole fights unable to control their character).
It never went anywhere...
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Wowsers I agree with Aerowyn. Hell has frozen over
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
The "trinity" is just a method, one that's evolved in the genre because it's effective and understandable, and fits well into a roleplaying game. There's nothing inherently wrong or evil about it.
"Anything would be better than the trinity" is not a true statement. To me, GW2 has proven that there are much worse systems with the one they implemented. Different isn't always better, and change for the sake of change can result in something worse than the original.
If a game is going to replace the trinity with "something else", they should probably ensure that it's better.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Wasn't implimented well = I didn't understand it.
The aggro mechanic is just complicated compared to a trinity game, that's the precise reason most people don't get it. They're used to having their mobs do exactly what they want.