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Why monthly fees?
Mandarista
Member Posts: 4
OK.... Just to warn everyone, I'm a "noob" to these kind of games, so no picking on me too harshly... :P
I've just recently gotten into computer gaming at all (I've played nothing but consoles for years) and I've played a few MMOs - I like Guild Wars ok, and I've played demos for FFXI, Ragnarok, and WoW and I played on a friends beta of another (though the title eludes me at the moment, sorry) But the major thing that lets me down is the whole concept of monthly fees. Now before I get flamed - I get the whole idea of profit and running servers and blah blah, but seriously - does it really cost Sony $15.00 per month x the over a billion people playing Everquest to keep up with costs?? I may not be "gaming industry savvy" or what have you, but I know there's lost of ways to (illegaly, granted...) find free servers for lots of MMOs, and I doubt many people would pay millions in monthly server fees just to have their own hacked version of the game. The concept of playing hacked versions just doesn't sit with me very well anyway, so I guess I'm SOL for basically any of these types of games. Plus I really don't have the "only" $15 extra a month to spend on computer game subscriptions (not enough work hours in a week + lots of bills = very sad me)
I'll admit, maybe I've gotten a little spoiled over the years since console games only cost the initial purchase price (and get this - they're actually complete on purchase! no tweaks, "nerfs", or bug patches!) and - sarcasm aside :P - I really don't intend to irk anyone here, but am I the only one who finds the whole concept basically a rip off? 
Since this seems to be the indrustry "norm" I was just curious as to whether or not many people were as irked as me, or if I'm just blowing hot air.....
Comments
Main Server Connection Fees, hardware, subservers. Once an MMORPG is released, the game is still incomplete (99% of the time) which means you need to continue to pay Developers to work on new content and media for the game.
Housing for the Developers, equipment for them, electricity, minor ammenities, 24/7 tech support... salaries... these are all ongoing costs of development for MMORPGs. Since new hardware is released regularly it is the problem for the Developers to make it work on the hardware, find conflicts and fix the issues...
On the Console
Once the game is released it's done. Start on the new game.
One System Configuration to build for... nobody's will ever be different (every PS2 is alike you know. ;-))
No content package upgrades for added levels or equipment... so no ongoing development to "better" the game.
Reasons like that.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Not 100% on what they use them for, but I think mainly it's keeping the servers up and paying the people to keep it running, fix bugs, add updates. I've heard that they use to charge hourly, that'd really suck for some of us.
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
There are other things to consider as well. With a console game, you're getting a game that is also 'finished' in another sense of the word. You're not getting new content for it.
People that play MMO's want (and some expect) a fully balanced, fully immersive, well-maintained game where content is added daily
When you have server costs, and a team of people hired to build new content, that costs money.
Now add in the fact that all of these companies also have a staff of people that are hired solely (theoretically) to assist the customers (GM's). Games that haven't used a monthly fee system lack in one of the above areas:
Diablo 2? Virtually no support from any authority figure, rampant hacking, and very slow content updating. Was it a good game still? Sure, but it wouldn't fly as a pay-per-month mmo.
Guild Wars? A very pretty game, again, very little support. And really, tbh, neither Guild Wars, nor Diablo 2 were MMO's. Ok, I'll admit, Guild Wars is closer than D2, but still, a fully instanced game isn't exactly an mmo.
I think it really comes down to $15 per month / 30 days = 50 cents per day. Is that a high price for a game that you can play 24 hours a day? (ok, 23.5 hours a day with downtime averaged in). It really seems like a pretty fair model to me. Just my 2c
yeah, the fees suck but there are a few ways to look at it. if you play it all the time for a long time, it comes out to like $.50 cents a day or so. thats less than a bottle of soda a day. its used to take care of maintenance and server costs and the costs to update the game and for customer service. if they don't update or the service sucks, then i'm going to get a little ticked off at where my money is going.
on the other hand, do they really need that much money a month? look at WoW, 4 million people playing at $50 for the initial game and then $15 a month afterward. thats a lot of money. it could be lower imo. i think mmorpgs should cost less initially too, maybe like $25-30. most mmorpgs do come down in price a few months after they are released, but still the initial cost of something that i am going to continue to pay for seems a little greedy to me.
Ok. WoW was mentioned.
4 million people are playing this game and they each pay 15$ monthly (not mentioning 50$ for initial purcase)
That my friends comes to 60000000 $ (60 million monthly) or 720 million dollars a year.
Let see what we get form this.
1. Overcrowded laggy servers
2. Horrible support and overbooked support
3. Mizerable joke of expansion
....this all cost Blizzard maximum 5 million dolar monthly , and this is overstatement.
So what do we got company that cashes 55 million dolars a month. Well what can I tell - good for them..very good....
Let them rot with their god damn money while whole countries in africa are dying of hunger.
Your question : is monthly fee really justified.
Answer is: No , not really - At least not 15$
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I don't have the slightest interest in how much money the game companies are making.
) in all my 46 years I have never come across anything that even comes close to the value for money offerd by MMORPG's
What I consider is how much I'm paying per hour of entertainment, and ( you've guessed what's coming havn't you
Of course nobody pays a monthly fee for a normal game that has a begining and an end, we would be crazy to do that.
The point of MMORPG's is that they don't have an end. They are a constantly shifting, growing world. A lot of people never grasp this and you can see their posts moaning about how their character has been nerfd or their favorite leveling spot has changed.
I see two types of people in the world, those who fear stagnation and those who fear change. The later should avoid most MMORPG's. I say most because there are some exceptions ... though to name them would start a flame war from one of the most vocal minorities on this forum
What I would say Mandarista is that MMORPG's are about the same price as any other game on the shelves, but with a MMORPG you get a full month of playtime rather than the average 35/45 hours of most games.
Plus at the end of that month, if you wish, you can buy another month for a lot less than the price of a new game.
Whatever you decide - enjoy
Quick reply to all those who thing $15/m is high:
America has the cheapest monthy fee for an MMORPG on the planet. In China and Korea, they buy TimeCards and pay hourly. It's not unussual for them to sink 40+ hours a week into a MMORPG, and most of them play from Net Cafe's.
The price of an MMORPG in Europe is comparitive to America. But many of the games are more expensive elsewhere. With a lack of a better phrase: "If you don't like it, don't buy it." Nobody's twisting your arm to pay a game that requires monthly fees (I hope nobody is anyways).
And in the worlds of my Cousin: "Good", "Free", "MMORPG" - Pick 2.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Uh show me some facts/links of korean net cafes being more expensive.. even if it 1$(us dollar) a hour that still cheap for a computer/internet/mmorpg subscription...
If i would just take a guess of the cost of computer(new or upgrade every 3 years)/high speed internet/subscription i would say $200
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
In internet cafe's, you are still required to own the game and have a subscription (thus the character is tied to you). So, the only savings by going to an internet cafe would be that you don't have to have your own computer/internet connection.
let's for a moment forgot all the great points other posters have put there about what the monthly pay is used for. Consider it a matter of what you get for your money.
While it is true that PC games and even Console games nowadays get patches and bug fixes, those are way minor in comparison to what a MMorpg add each month. In addition, each MMorpg comes out of the box with a huge expansive world and really hundred of hours of entertainment ready for you.
The max you get from a console game is 40 hours. the average is 10-20. then you have to spend other 60 dollars for another 10-20 hours. so, with an average of 15 hours, that is 4 dollar an hour.
A average Mmorpg gamer plays let's say.... 20 hours a week? That rounds up to 80 hours(+) a month of entertaiment that you paid with 15$=0.2$ an hour.
And is not that the game is static. New content is added every month so you can actually see a concrete progression of the game. Is a living entity instead of a static beast.
For this and other reasons, Mmorpg monthly fee is more than worthy
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
For me at home:
I pay $50/m for my High Speed Internet (I've got all the bonuses).
I pay $15/m for my subscription to EVE Online.
I probably pay like $15/m for all the soda I drink while playing games, and another $10/m for the chips and snacks.
I come up with $90/m for gaming...
***And I can play in my underwear at any time and scream alot if I want and chat on another computer while I play.
If I lived elsewhere and went to a Net Cafe at $1/hr:
I work at a game company... so I can't play all the time. But before I did, I probably played about 50+ hours a week. There's $50/w.
There's 4 weeks in a month = 4 * 50 = $200/m
I guzzle soda like no tomorrow... Easy drinking 4 - 24 packs monthly. At $1/soda I'd be paying $96/m. (no outside food or drink)
I love to munch on food while I play, so lets say 75 cents per little bag of chips = 0.75 * 50 = $37.50/m cause I can't buy the family bags.
***I can't play in my underwear, that's public indecency. If I scream alot I might get kicked out of the Cafe. And they don't provide spare computers to chat on AIM/ICQ/MSN/YIM/IRC/ect during downtime. Oh, and I can't watch StarGate while I play either.
$90/m - OR - $333.50/m
Then add in the comfort factor of being at home.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Id go with hor air
But don't worry to much, I think it's perfectly normal for someone new to this genre to be more then a little off put by the montly charges or other costs that tend to come along with these games.
There are many reasons for MMO's to charge what they do, obviously along with Box sales it helps to recoup some of the development cost which as everyone knows is certainly not innexpensive now days.
Secondly, on going development and maintenance is a big one, take this into account and we'll use WoW as an example just simply because it's already been brought up. Just One WoW server has an initial hardware cost of $10,000 USD, then on top of that you have to add monthly Rental space Fees which are very costly, then on top of that along with a very very costly charge is bandwidth, because obviously 4 Million people will not connect to your nice servers of a 5600 Baud interchange
.
Once you've taken care of the technology (or done your very best at least) there are still staff that need to be paid, artist, modelers, coders, programers, PR, profject managers, web developers, administration, payroll, management. As much as these people love to work in the game industry, they certainly do not do so for free and if you want quality staff, you have to pay them a quality salary.
Since MMO's are persistent worlds with many updates on a very regular basis, trying your very best to appease a very large number of players, ALL these staff and ALL this technology has to be persistant as well, it has to grow and hopefully become better with age.
Thridly, and very very importantly, profit. Just like any entertainment industry, the gaming industry needs profit to grow, not just to cover it's cost. Without profit what motivation would any company have to bring you a product that will hold your interest and entertain you, well here's a little secret, none. A monthly fee helps make a profitable and has also been a major factor to the massive up swing that MMO genre has seen over the last... 5 to 10 years.
So there you have it, most of these (of course not all) cost and reasonings are very much so unique to the MMORPG genre and the production companys that develope them. Of course, this may not matter at all to you but try to envision the value you get out of it. Compare your cost to say... going to the theatre for one night, watching one movie, look at the cost, look at the time you receive entertainment and then compare that to what you receive with your $15.00 montly fee, most of the time if you take everything above into account, you'll find you come out on top.
Hope this helps you see the reasoning behind it all.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
Games such as A Tale In The Desert (atitd.com) have constantly updated and new content. In that case, I'm more than happy to pay a subscription. However, Eve, WoW, no chance. You're paying ongoingly for a static and stagnant game.
*sighs*
If you don't understand the costs involved in running a 100+ server network (and any MMORPG worth a crap has multiple cluster servers to support just ONE "server" for the game, usually) then PLEASE don't ask these questions.
Recurring COSTS is why there are subscription fees:
1) Bandwidth
2) Server maintenance
3) Software updates
4) Ongoing Development / Content additions (there is No Such Thing as a Finished MMORPG
5) QA - because, see above, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Finished" MMORPG
6) Customer Support
Bandwidth is actually the LOWEST of the costs to be considered when all is said and done. And Customer Support is often the most expensive.
Have a nice day. Hope you fools who constantly whine about subscription fees finally get a clue one day.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I was just wondering, then, what everyones input on games like Everquest 2 and Dark Ages of Camelot that require you to play a monthly fee AND for the new content.
Plus Guild Wars does not require a monthly few, and releases free new content and everything that is expected from a MMORPG. Why can they do it for free?
World of Warcraft comes out with a small patch roughly every 2 months. Nothing too major like a Halloween event.
The only new content being Battlegrounds and a few raid instances in almost a year since release.
If you have subscribed for that years you have payed $15 x 12 months = about $180. That doesnt sit right with me.......
Game companies like Electronic Arts and Nintendo also have 24/7 customer service. Go check out their websites if you dont believe me.
For entertainment value, First Person Shooters like Counterstrike and Halo 1/2 have online servers (100s) and they are free, and have the same maintenance and new content as a MMORPG. Plus customer service.
The bottom line is that MMORPG companies realize that they CAN charge this fee. It has become expected of a mmorpg. I mean remember the surprise when Guild Wars announced it would be free?
It was like A FREE MMORPG, ZOMG how original!!!!
I pay for MMORPGs, but I do not do it happily. I do not believe it is fair, but I love mmorpgs so I stomache the losses. People should not defend monthly fees like you guys have. That just imbeds the idea that they are required, and trust me, they are solely for extra profit.
There is not one single person who *likes* to pay monthly fees when they purchase the game for say US$ 30,00. but it really is necessary to keep the servers, game staff, etc.... running. unless they dont need a monthly subscription money to pay for things, which is a very rare case.
Guildwars is living on box sales. Once the game gets a little older and sales slow down the revenue stream will dry up and they will do one of three or four things:
1) Start charging a monthly fee
2) Release full price ($50 box) expansions to the game
3) Start allowing for in-game advertizing (see PlanetSide and a few other MMO's out there doing this)
4) Sell in-game items to players for real world money.
OR
A combination of the above.
Bottom line: Once the 'new box sales' dry up they will need to come up with another revenue stream in order to fund the maintenance and upkeep and development of the game or they will have to close the game down. It's just that simple.
As for the games out there that charge a monthly fee AND charge for expansions:
They do it.... because they can, not out of any real necessity. They know that the vast majority of their players will fork out the money for an expansion whether it's worth the money or not. Just look at SWG's recent Mustafar expansion. $29.95 for an expansion SMALLER than a $5 digital update expansion for EQ2.
Over 75% of the active playerbase bought the expansion.
The game companies KNOW that the majority of the players will pay for expansions. If you want THAT to stop, then stop buying expansions. Personally the only expansion for any game that I ever bought when it first came out was Jump to Lightspeed for Star Wars Galaxies. I didn't even buy Kunark when it first came out for EQ2.
As far as monthly fees go, they aren't necessarily "mandatory" but an MMORPG can only survive as long as it's got a steady, reliable, income stream. The minute that income dries up the game either suffers, is closed or the company is forced to support it at a loss. And there's no company out there that will operate a MMORPG at a loss for very long. Or did you think Turbine shut down AC2 because they wanted to piss off the players?
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
NCSoft posted a profit of $19,500,000 last quarter. This is PROFIT, not revenue. NCSoft is a company that can afford to put out a game like Guild Wars. In my opinion, Guild Wars is an experiment by NCSoft to see if an expansion-driven game can be profitable. Maybe it can, maybe not. But because of its unique situation, I don't think that Guild Wars is the best example.
Lol, forbid that a company wants to make money. I'm sure it's ok for you to make money, but someone else ... forget about it.
The issue comes down to value. If you don't see the value of paying for a service, which most mmos provide, then don't pay for it. Even though Guild Wars currently doesn't require a subscription, I still didn't find any value in playing. Hense, I won't bother with supporting their model of paid expansions.
Besides, as hobbies go, mmos can be extremely cheap. I can't even walk into a bar without sneezing $15, and that's just one night. Playing golf? I wish I knew a decent course in Charleston that I could play on for $15 per month. Lets not even get into sailing.
Updating and maintaining a game costs money, and sure companies want to actually make as much money as possible (just like you). As long as I continue to find value in their services, I have no problem with paying what I consider a modest price.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
many people just want to make lots of money. OK... Ok, sure it is still paying for people to improve on the game and all that stuff but the main reason is to make even more money.
Welcome to the free market economy my red friend.
j/k
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
My example of Guild Wars was just to show that it is possible without a fee. Not that it was the best method.
And you are telling me that NCSoft is a larger and more profitable than Sony???!??!?!??! Blizzard is richer than NCSoft by a much larger margine, so you point about the "experiment" they are testing does not hold.
I have no problem with people making money, I am willing to pay for their service.
I just hope people understand that it is, for the most part, greed.
They could run servers if they charged each user like $1 a month, not $15.
I am very interested in the progression of Guild Wars. I am not a big fan of the game, but I would really like to see if it can stay alive.
If the expansions sell as well as the retail game, I doubt they would have to employ any of the extreme measures you listed.
It wouldnt even have to sell as well, just mediocre.
I am happy that this hobby of mine doesnt require too much cash. I am not arguing that MMORPGs are unaffordable or unreasonably expensive. Just that they are not a requirement.
Honestly, if a game company was charging a monthly fee for updates and server maintenance only, then why would every game have a monthly fee of about $15. It is a market people, a company interested in a nonprofit fee would probably figure out what it needs to stay alive based on how many people, etc. They wouldnt all just chose $15.
Later
Mike
The way I see it, most MMOs I play are free to download (or $20 but come with a free month). $15 a month saves me paying $50 for a game I'll play for 10 hours. It also makes me forget about things like eating and going out, which after awhile starts to save me a lot of money.
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
Only, I repeat ONLY US players pay in dollars. So ONLY 1 million customers are giving Blizzard $15 dollars per month. In Europe we pay in Pound sterling or Euros. This means the price is subject to exchange rates and VAT, which Blizzard does NOT get. So how much money Blizzard gets from EU players is likely NOT fully $15 dollars/mth.
However, with regards to WoW in Asia, with cyber cafes and game cards I CAN post some REAL costs, not hearsay and conjecture.
China: this from: http://www.corp.the9.com/news/2005/news_050522.htm
The9 is the company that blizzard sold the licence to in China.
1. After WoW's formal commercial launch, an authorized CD key will be required for players to activate their WoW accounts and enter the game. Each CD key costs RMB30 and can be purchased with a WoW Points Card. Also, each CD key can only be used for a single authentication.
No boxes of the game were sold in China, instead players bought a CD Key. The cost-per-player was 30 Yuan, that's $3.70, a bit less than the $50 paid by US players.
2. We will also issue WoW Points Cards at RMB30 for 600 game points. After the game's formal commercial launch, each Points Card can be used at a rate of 9 points per hour (RMB0.45/hour).
00.45 Yuan is $0.05, 5 cents/hour. Let's say 40 hours a week. That's $2 per week, about $8 a month for 160 hours of play, not too bad.
Out that $8 every month The9 obviously takes a cut.
So I can say without doubt that Blizzard is NOT making $15 per month from ALL of it's 4.5-5 million, or however many, customers.
For me at home:
I pay $50/m for my High Speed Internet (I've got all the bonuses).
I pay $15/m for my subscription to EVE Online.
I probably pay like $15/m for all the soda I drink while playing games, and another $10/m for the chips and snacks.
I come up with $90/m for gaming...
***And I can play in my underwear at any time and scream alot if I want and chat on another computer while I play.
If I lived elsewhere and went to a Net Cafe at $1/hr:
I work at a game company... so I can't play all the time. But before I did, I probably played about 50+ hours a week. There's $50/w.
There's 4 weeks in a month = 4 * 50 = $200/m
I guzzle soda like no tomorrow... Easy drinking 4 - 24 packs monthly. At $1/soda I'd be paying $96/m. (no outside food or drink)
I love to munch on food while I play, so lets say 75 cents per little bag of chips = 0.75 * 50 = $37.50/m cause I can't buy the family bags.
***I can't play in my underwear, that's public indecency. If I scream alot I might get kicked out of the Cafe. And they don't provide spare computers to chat on AIM/ICQ/MSN/YIM/IRC/ect during downtime. Oh, and I can't watch StarGate while I play either.
$90/m - OR - $333.50/m
Then add in the comfort factor of being at home.
what a moron