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CC and Interrupts will make or break
Zarkor
Member Posts: 9
I don't know what lessons MJ learned from his former games, including DAoC, but I for one, as a player firmly believe that crowd control makes or breaks the PvP experience in any MMO.
DAoC did things right. It granted players the opportunity to outplay larger forces by thinking their actions through. Both sides had mezz, it was however the side that handled the resulting benefits smarter that had the upper hand.
What happens in zergs is an uncontrolable spamfest. Any other form of CC, like we are seeing today (short CC, knock-backs, ups, downs, rounds, unders, ... -.-) actually gain strength in numbers. Especially since the short duration on these forms of CC means that there is no Immunity timer.
DAoC's long CC and Immunity timers were the perfect counter to mindless zerging, which is what made its organised teamplay aspect so goddamn awesome. Also, I have never played a game where properly utilising CC granted more battle satisfaction than basicly any other offensive ability. Killing them was one thing, but being in control is something entirely different.
That brings me to the next subject: Interrupting. The casting system in DAoC was just right. All the 'casting while moving' or 'cast-bar' (where spells will finish casting regardless) bullshit was just wrong to be honest. Again, it only strengthened the zerg because in the end, nothing was really going to prevent you from being at least somewhat 'effective'. Being able to shut down the spellcasters by casting 1 AoE spell in the middle of them is another ideal way of countering mindless playerclusters.
Zerging is disliked because it's basicly as mindless as PvE. Prevent such a dumbed down playstyle from overpowering teamplay, positioning, skill and wits purely due to lack of numbers and you'll be making a grave mistake. MJ can focus on PvP as much as he wants, as long as the CC and rupts are gonna be just more of the same, things aren't looking good...
Comments
I don't think long duration CC and hard interrupts were fundamental to how fun DAOC was.
Certainly there's no chance they're going to have 60+ second unbreakable mezz and root in CU like DAOC had at release especially since DAOC itself long since added many things to make CC less effective (immunity timers, AE dropoff, resists reducing duration, Determination, Purge, Cure Mezz). Something like 20 seconds max duration CC with counter spells (purge and cure spells) and long immunity timers (5 minutes) would work fine.
It does get to be a bit ridiculous in some games how every spell is instant cast and unstoppable, but you could counter that by having more silence abilities rather than using DAOC's stand-still-to-cast and the-slightest-thing-interrupts system.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Actually I agree with you Zarkor. Long duration CC/Buffs/Debuffs and rupts forced you to think about your positiong, movement and target picking.
By the way ... Here we meet again if you're the one from Uthgard
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
20 seconds is a tiny bit too short if youre still going to have things like determination and resists that reduce duration. My suggestion would be to have 30 second duration baseline with melee being able to reduce it with talents by 50 percent and resists not effect it. Then offer cures from healers and purges as well. 1 minute immunity was also a good time imo and would be fine for a 30 second cc that breaks on anythingDAoC did many things right and few things wrong.
Its CC system was the best I have seen in any MMO. Any changes to that formula would be very risky IMO.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I wrote briefly about my thoughts on CC in "The List" thread. Here's what I think.
TL;DR version: make long-duration CC channeled.
CC is cool. For the most part, the more dynamic combat is and the more aspects there are to it the better*. And, just like any aspect of combat, or anything else in a game for that matter, it should be handled carefully. Crowd control over many targets for a long period of time, such as a mez, can really help in breaking up the zerg, encourage tight-knit and consistent groups. It can also be a major pain in the ass if there aren't enough counters. Obviously things like passive effects that mitigate CC time (whether purchased via some sort of RR/RA type system or a buff or something) or something more active like a purge (self is good, relying on another group member to purge your mez is even better). Something that I really think would go a long way to keeping things balanced is to not have a "set it and forget it" approach to crowd control. Being able to CC and then go on doing all sorts of other things (be it damage, buff, heal, run away, etc.) is not a good system.
Crowd control is a powerfull tool and should require more of an investment than just a spec and a single cast. What I propose is having longer-duration, loss-of-control CCs being channeled. Other CCs such as roots, knockbacks, pulls, snares, silences (disabling magic-based abilities), cripples (disabling physical abilities), and even cooler things like conjuring up walls of stone to block line-of-sight should be fine to just activite. Mezzes, however, whether they be single-target, gtaoe, pbaoe or whatever, should be channeled. Having multiple CC classes channeling together should increase their effects. This way, a purge or mitigation effect can stop it, as can interrupting the CC class in question. Counters are good*.
Now, when it comes to the ugliness about having diminishing returns versus an immunity timer, I don't really care for diminishing returns, and I think having a long immunity for being mezzed for a whole two seconds and then purging isn't a great idea either. I'd really like to see a system in which you gain immunity to CC for about how long you were CC'd for. Yes, I understand this might mean getting chain-CC'd more, but I like to think of CC and interrupts as two different beasts. This would add an extra layer to combat, though. Imagine you're a healer, and your group gets hit by a surprise AoE mez. Do you immediately purge and get ready to lay down some support, but leave yourself immune to CC for only a second or two, or do you save your purge and enjoy your mezzmerized state knowing that you'll be ready to heal when the... stuff really hits the fan.
Now imagine being a dude (or dudette) with CC. Do you keep your mez up for the full duration while the rest of your squad smashes into the helpless group, or do you just do it long enough for them to get into possition and then lay out some aoe snares and cripples while their mez immunity wears off and then hit them again when you really need them debilitated.
Just my two cents.
*If developed in a smart way.
EDIT: Also: I've been thinking alot about QTEs to make CC a little more active. The CCer goes through a quicktime event as does the recipient. If the channler is faster at it, the CC lasts longer. If the victim is faster, the CC doesn't last as long. This, however, somewhat blurs that whole RPG/Action thing. I still remember that I like to play RPGs because I get to, ya know, play a role. I'm not an ace archer or a supermage. Yes, the actual character control is important, but this QTE thing might be too much for some people. I get that. I might even be one of them.
I miss quality CC in MMOs.
In my opinion, the thing WAR/SWTOR/GW2 had in common were shit CC. Single or limited target short CC, most of which doesn't break on damage, has become the stardard in MMOs. It's fine for arena style combat, but leaves the RvR experience laking a lot.
It's the casual mindset of MMOs that there shouldn't be spells that remove control of my character from me for more then a couple seconds.
You know that most MMO allows you to outplay larger forces right? Considering the larger forces knows how to play and the zerg don't. Its not something that can only be done in DAoC...
I got purge or determination 5 on all my characters. Sometimes you were forced to have purge 3 and another time you even had a second demezzer like on mid or hib. CC just determined your positioning ... Warden without purge3 or determination 5? Too bad, pick a heal warden. I was okay with it ... The druid specced on nature and did the rupt.
There were always ... people who made mistakes and hit a fresh-mezzed enemy. Don't forget counters like deadly nearsight (especially if you were not able to cure it without purge) and the mentioned rupt.
Eventually you could be able to get more purge-like skills in CU IF they'd implement longtime duration CC. But I think they should be expensive or a well-thought action to purchase one.
I think devastating AOE is too, RAIN OF FIRE! there does need to be some CC in there, to make that work, but no 90sec CC, just enough to keep them in the AOE and off you.
no AOE cap either, zergs should be punished for clustering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koe5PTQi8HM
Video of my guild in GW2, we use shock and awe and hit them hard fast and generally by surprise, rooting, time warping and magneting them into aoe. in GW2 its hard to take on large amount of opponents because of that annoying AOE cap, but without that and just strong aoe small groups like in WAR could operate that bit easier. I wouldnt want to take on a zerg in WAR with less than 12 though, 18 optimal.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
CC may be an important factor, but I don't think any game coming out today should try to replicate DAoC's system. Taking away a player's control of his character for minutes at a time is just lame.
I'd rather see a modern system. Perhaps where smaller groups of players can simply take advantage of terrain, create/exploit bottlenecks.. impliment collision detection. That would be more interesting. Simply spamming AOE mezz into a group of newbs is just dumb and unimaginative, though.
Ex-DAOC, Excalibur
i think mmos have to stop being Crowd Control fest. Thats not fun.
If theres going to be any form of CC (fear, stun, knockback, knockdown,etc) it should have a pretty long cooldown and dont give them all to every class. maybe 1 or 2 per class with a long cooldown for a situational use. Combat based on CC is terrible. I prefer combat based on real time blocking and not just a CC spam like the traditional mmos have become.
For any mid or long term CC there will be counters. Purge ,Det, SoS are great examples.
I enjoy the stand still casting. It keeps range at range. Perhaps if a player gets good enough at casting, then the perks/abilities will improve to a no interrupt, move and cast and close cast. Why not. If that is what MJ is aiming for at least.
I used to love the fact that I had to stand still to cast.
I also loved that stats reduced your cast time.
Add in a being able to cast 3 bolts and, if you got your positioning and timing right, you could get 3 bolts in the air before the first one landed leaving the poor target pretty much screwed.
I even loved that heavy armour and shields helped protect against bolts.
there wasn't that much CC in WAR...
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
I am not a fan of CC, in any way.
To me CC, which locks your character up, where you can not defend, just takes away part of the skill and fun in combat.
Games get buitl around CC, then counter abilities, thent his and that, instead of the game being buitl around combat itself it can become a huge mess of cc, interrupts, silences, all ways to take people "out" of fights, rather then giving them more tools to use during combat toa ctually fight.
This is just my opinion, and I know there'll be CC in CU, I just hope it's on the lower end side and there aren't a ton of them and there are many ways to counter it.
As a melee fighter in most rpgs CC's are a huge annoyance, and leads to balancing range vs melee a nightmare.
I would rather that the archer/mage kill a melee fighter with good aim (IE if I'm running toward an archer and he headshoots me with perfect aim, then GREAT, I'd love that and the death would feel justified and apporaite), however to just get chain stunned, not be able to do anything about it, just sit there and watch yourself die, that's not fun, it's annoying, and it just doesn't feel good imo, for either side.
Playing as a range character, I'd much rather win a fight because of my skill to hit, the combat abilities/skills I have, rather then stunning someone then dropping massive damage on them as usual.
Realize that Mythic is the classic example of a Development team that had no real clue what made DAOC special which they proved expansion after expansion with one bad idea after another which ultimately ruined the game in the end.
Contrast that with CCP who have a very clear idea of why their title appeals to their niche market and treads very carefully to not piss off too many folks whenever possible. (still fall wrath to much backlash regardless)
We can only hope the folks making this game take a hard look at why WAR didn't work out as well and consider falling back to some of the designs of the previous title even if they personally don't agree with them.
BTW, if you found yourself standing still for a minute in DAOC, you (or your groupmates) did something wrong, and should have learned how to avoid it in the future. It seems many didn't however......
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