Anyone that believes the lead designer has no say, little say or isnt in control is a delusional fanboy.
EA will only push for a game to be released EARLY because of the cost and needing a return on sales to boost earnings or if it is not meeting up to expectations after release and remove those that royally failed with their project (see SWTOR).
EA offices are ---> here
Game developers offices are ---> here. This is where the work is being done, far away from EA to see...and if they tried to develop it way up ^^^^^ there the game would never get made.
To the OP, hell no I wouldnt give him any money, not even before Warhammer thanks to the royal mess that was DaoC's crapfest RvR.
if you think daoc rvr is bad you obv insane, thanks for popping in, please dont pop back this game isnt for you
Cleary you never PvP'ed pre-DaoC thus you are a carebear PvPer. DaoC with its /stick, CCs and zergs created an army of piss poor PvPers with little skill. BTW, really loved the contstant nerf hammers for a year that resulted in an enter realm to hold in game protests on over a dozen servers for 3 months until something was finally done for them. GREAT GAME DESIGN!
What was pre-DAOC pvp in an mmorpg? I never played Ashrons Call so I can't comment and UO was my favorite game of all time, but mind blast, poison, ebolt ebolt ebolt doesn't take a genius. I was a dread lord and after that a perma-red, most of the time and although exciting, it was attack, run, pot, attack, run pot. If not it was 3 of us vs 1. Now we didn't have all the great quik bars, and you had to keep you bag open and be fast to double click that trapped pouch when frozen, but it wasn't hands down a pvp experience that was light years greater than DAOC.
I do agree though, stick was lame, but CC hads its roll and if you couldn't counter it than tough for the player.
im not going to even argue with people that think pre daoc pvp was the best, they obv know beter than me obv
Clearly. DaoC the first MMORPG to have entire realms have sit in protests due to PvP...lol. I bet you played a Sklad or was part of a 3 man team stopping a group of 2+ dozen people from Hibernia and gloating about how leet you were so choose to ignore how piss poor the game design was.
i played inf solo until SI then played mid for a month before my work stopped me playing. then i played mid classic and mid ywain.. sounds like your sit in worked and got the game fixed so whys that a bad thing? is it bad the devs made a bad choice and listern to the players? sounds like your just mad for being mad's sake
Cleary you never PvP'ed pre-DaoC thus you are a carebear PvPer. DaoC with its /stick, CCs and zergs created an army of piss poor PvPers with little skill.
Anyone that argues skill when refering to mmorpg pvp is a carebear pvp'er. Real skill based pvp happens in shooters and other games that don't have gear or lame dice rolling mechanincs. All mmo pvp has created a bunch of piss poor pvp'ers that think they know what skill really is.
Making blanket statments that requier people to stand in the tiny little box you create is fun !
theres far more hacks in FPS games than mmo so arguing FPs games require more skill isnt really viable
I wasn't trying to be.
We all know that because anyone that argues all MMO PvP is the same has little experience in it. Few of you could handle the 20+ minute long one on one PvP duals of Asherons Call or run in an open world with no "system" like in Ultima Online.
So hardcore...
Lol! He makes it sound like his "hardcoreness" is on par with scaling a mountain or fighting in Afghanistan. It's sooooo hard to spend 20+ minutes having one on one PvP duals. *yawn* More like boredom if that's ALL you do. There's some of us who actually appreciate variety & purpose over non-sensical chaos.
i purchased warhammer online colelctor's edition day 1 and it sucked, How th ehell are you guys going to get duped into giving jacob more money to scam you with this game? havent you learned your lesson from warhammer online?
I would be shocked if he can get a successful kickstarter after warhammer online. Seriously did you want to let him scam the gamers even more?
I loved WAR. Played it a sshhhheet ton for 6 months, but quit cause endgame was boring. I will throw my money at the ks
i played inf solo until SI then played mid for a month before my work stopped me playing. then i played mid classic and mid ywain.. sounds like your sit in worked and got the game fixed so whys that a bad thing? is it bad the devs made a bad choice and listern to the players? sounds like your just mad for being mad's sake
As the OP pointed out, a fool and his money are soon parted.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Anyone that believes the lead designer has no say, little say or isnt in control is a delusional fanboy.
EA will only push for a game to be released EARLY because of the cost and needing a return on sales to boost earnings or if it is not meeting up to expectations after release and remove those that royally failed with their project (see SWTOR).
EA offices are ---> here
Game developers offices are ---> here. This is where the work is being done, far away from EA to see...and if they tried to develop it way up ^^^^^ there the game would never get made.
To the OP, hell no I wouldnt give him any money, not even before Warhammer thanks to the royal mess that was DaoC's crapfest RvR.
if you think daoc rvr is bad you obv insane, thanks for popping in, please dont pop back this game isnt for you
Cleary you never PvP'ed pre-DaoC thus you are a carebear PvPer. DaoC with its /stick, CCs and zergs created an army of piss poor PvPers with little skill. BTW, really loved the contstant nerf hammers for a year that resulted in an enter realm to hold in game protests on over a dozen servers for 3 months until something was finally done for them. GREAT GAME DESIGN!
What was pre-DAOC pvp in an mmorpg? I never played Ashrons Call so I can't comment and UO was my favorite game of all time, but mind blast, poison, ebolt ebolt ebolt doesn't take a genius. I was a dread lord and after that a perma-red, most of the time and although exciting, it was attack, run, pot, attack, run pot. If not it was 3 of us vs 1. Now we didn't have all the great quik bars, and you had to keep you bag open and be fast to double click that trapped pouch when frozen, but it wasn't hands down a pvp experience that was light years greater than DAOC.
I do agree though, stick was lame, but CC hads its roll and if you couldn't counter it than tough for the player.
im not going to even argue with people that think pre daoc pvp was the best, they obv know beter than me obv
Clearly. DaoC the first MMORPG to have entire realms have sit in protests due to PvP...lol. I bet you played a Sklad or was part of a 3 man team stopping a group of 2+ dozen people from Hibernia and gloating about how leet you were so choose to ignore how piss poor the game design was.
Well, a well played Darkness Spec'ed Spiritmaster and Skald could do this. I thought I was leet.. whats your point? I also had a Max char in Darkfall (which makes AC look carebearish) and I also have 70+ humor in Salem (which makes Darkfall look completely carebare)
i purchased warhammer online colelctor's edition day 1 and it sucked, How th ehell are you guys going to get duped into giving jacob more money to scam you with this game? havent you learned your lesson from warhammer online?
I would be shocked if he can get a successful kickstarter after warhammer online. Seriously did you want to let him scam the gamers even more?
so you are basically saying that because you bought a CE for a game that wasnt successful now theres no way in hell he can make a good game anymore? i wonder what would you think hadnt you bought the CE.
I think that just because warhammer was a flop doesnt mean he will keep making flops. There are two factors behind a company making the same mistakes again. 1) did or didnt learn the lesson from previous mistakes. And 2) Add the same team to point #1.
Lets see. He said he has learned lessons. If we cant give him a chance to prove it, then why people keep buying EA games ? how many chances we have given to EA?, WHy buy TSW after AoC?, why play SOE games too?
I really think you are hurt because you bought a CE of a game you clearly didnt like enough. It was a flop but if you didnt see it coming thats your problem. I payed 80 for Swtor deluxe edition before launch and i knew the waters i was about to dive in.
SHow me a company that has been mistake-free since day one.
i played inf solo until SI then played mid for a month before my work stopped me playing. then i played mid classic and mid ywain.. sounds like your sit in worked and got the game fixed so whys that a bad thing? is it bad the devs made a bad choice and listern to the players? sounds like your just mad for being mad's sake
As the OP pointed out, a fool and his money are soon parted.
hes a troll the same as you, its pretty simple to work that out
Well, a well played Darkness Spec'ed Spiritmaster and Skald could do this. I thought I was leet.. whats your point? I also had a Max char in Darkfall (which makes AC look carebearish) and I also have 70+ humor in Salem (which makes Darkfall look completely carebare)
lol....hahahahahahaha ok thats a first. good one.
As for Salem, the only thing hardcore is the permadeath, there is nothing deep about the class/skills which negates the difficulty of that.
Hardcore PvP comes as much with class abilities as anything else. The ability to CC someone or like in DaoCs case, entire groups that can then be dropped with just a few AoEs removes the difficulty and makes it no different from PvE. In games like Asherons Call where you have no idea what that person has chosen for his character automatically brings the thrill level up because you dont know whats going to happen, and if they happen to have all 4 magical abilities trained its a continual battle that can go basically until one player just plain runs out of stamnia...the PLAYER...not the character. 100% skill based. You only lose if you screw up, not because of a lucky CC or because you raided for 1000 hours and have an uber item of burnurfaceoff.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by meddyck Nobody is forcing you to support the kickstarter. If other people want to invest money they can afford to spend in CU because they think Mark gets what mistakes were made in WAR and that CU will be much closer to DAOC, why do you care?
Guess OP's name explain a lot why he is against Mark Jacob's kickstarter:
archeageking
There exist some fanbois out there who want mmos other than the ones they play to fail, for some reason, lol. I guess they don't know that even IF they are not playing the other game it doesn't mean that they'll be playing the game he likes.
He is not going to get more people playing ArcheAge by badmouthing other kickstarters.
I believe anyone deserves a second chance if they admit they failed. I am concerned that Mark Jacobs really is a self defeated man still living in his failures though. Just listen to his rants in his blogs. He doesn't even seem to have direction in what he is doing after hearing his latest interview. I am no longer excited for this game and will not give him any money. I do feel bad for him.
I truly enjoyed warhammer at release and for a good 6 months. The reason I stopped playing was because of gross imbalance in pvp that was persistent. If they had ever admitted to the problem, made an intelligent and balanced fix, I'd probably still be there. When the whole development team put their heads in the sand and patched to make the imbalances worse - thats when its time to pull up stakes and move on.
What we can do here is see wether or not Mark Jacobs maintains transparency. Wether he caused or did not cause certain design and balance decisions to flaw an earlier product is something we cannot know without having been a part of THAT process. Apportioning full blame to one person is a sort of madness I will refrain from. What I will do is carefully watch everything he has to say, and show, and make my own decisions based upon his product and level of transparency with his crowd forgers.
Originally posted by red_cruiser Considering what a bang up job the former Mythic employees did with SWTOR, I'm pretty sure Mark Jacobs wasn't the biggest problem with WAR.
Working with someone else's IP makes putting out a good game much more difficult than it would be otherwise. Lucas has a habit of getting his grubby little mits into everything that they shouldn't be in.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
Originally posted by red_cruiser Considering what a bang up job the former Mythic employees did with SWTOR, I'm pretty sure Mark Jacobs wasn't the biggest problem with WAR.
A cooder only codes, he doesnt create the plan for the program. A graphics designer only creates graphics, he doesnt come up with what is done with it. The only person/s responsible for SWTOR are the ones that came up with the idea, and implimented it...everyone else was just taking direction.
In other words, SWTOR was its own fail. Warhammer was Mark Jacobs. If a ship sinks, its the captians fault...deal with it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by red_cruiser Considering what a bang up job the former Mythic employees did with SWTOR, I'm pretty sure Mark Jacobs wasn't the biggest problem with WAR.
A cooder only codes, he doesnt create the plan for the program. A graphics designer only creates graphics, he doesnt come up with what is done with it. The only person/s responsible for SWTOR are the ones that came up with the idea, and implimented it...everyone else was just taking direction.
In other words, SWTOR was its own fail. Warhammer was Mark Jacobs. If a ship sinks, its the captians fault...deal with it.
Obviously, none of us will ever know for sure what happened behind the scenes. I always got the impression that Jeff Hickman (Executive Producer) was largely responsible for the craptastic nightmare that was city warfare. He seemed the most passionate about dividing it up into all kinds of separate instances, etc. I could be wrong, though. There were a HUGE amount of people making inputs into how that game eventually turned out, the way I see it. Pau Barnett, for instance, was the Sr. Creative Director. In my opinion, its biggest downfall was trying to reconcile instanced pvp with world pvp with the separate tiers, etc. It just never really seemed right to me that you can completely conquer the outside tier and yet still not be able to technically take it because our side was losing in these invisible instanced hamster wheels (ie, the instanced pvp that was contributing to the conquer pts for the tier, or whatever they called it).
thats fine by you, i think the hype on this game is unwarranted in my opinion only because i feel i got burned by mythic over warhammer online collector's edition i fell into their marketing hype.
Wouldn't this be your own fault? It's like believing (so and so) has the best pizza because you read it in an add. Marketing is designed by nature to be deceptive and overstate the quality of a product. The whole purpose of it is to generate sales.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Obviously, none of us will ever know for sure what happened behind the scenes. I always got the impression that Jeff Hickman (Executive Producer) was largely responsible for the craptastic nightmare that was city warfare. He seemed the most passionate about dividing it up into all kinds of separate instances, etc.
The point is, a lead designer LEADS the design team.
Hickman may very well have come up with the idea but Jacobs was the lead designer and thus agreed and incorporated it into the design. Sadly, that IS how it works, it comes down to the person in charge and Jacobs was in charge.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Obviously, none of us will ever know for sure what happened behind the scenes. I always got the impression that Jeff Hickman (Executive Producer) was largely responsible for the craptastic nightmare that was city warfare. He seemed the most passionate about dividing it up into all kinds of separate instances, etc.
The point is, a lead designer LEADS the design team.
Hickman may very well have come up with the idea but Jacobs was the lead designer and thus agreed and incorporated it into the design. Sadly, that IS how it works, it comes down to the person in charge and Jacobs was in charge.
You obviously haven't been reading Mark's comments. He owns up to and admits that he made mistakes with WAR. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, I don't care how successful or "perfect" you are. The ones who learn from their mistakes and stick to it rather than giving up are the ones who can recover and become successful once again. It's just ridiculous to assume that a person is completely perfect and will never make mistakes. There are plenty of Directors of film that I greatly admire that make some real whoppers every now and again. I don't just dismiss them forever because of one mistake film. They usually continue making great films.
The point is, Mark Jacobs was largely responsible and influential in Dark Age of Camelot which I consider a great success. That alone should earn him respect and a second chance.
The point is, Mark Jacobs was largely responsible and influential in Dark Age of Camelot which I consider a great success. That alone should earn him respect and a second chance.
The pointis, Mark Jacobs was the Lead Designer of DaoC which also had enough glaring mistakes that it was the first MMO to have 10s of thousands of players do sit in PROTESTS over treatment...he bastardized Hibernia for over a YEAR and it took how long for that realm to start seeing life again after the mass exodus? and on top of it created a PvP envoirment that allowed a group of 3 people to roll over two dozen. Ask anyone that ever ran with a Sklad. RvR was so freaking imbalanced that dozens of PvE nerf hammers couldnt fix it...oh and lets not forget the wonderful command that locks onto an enmey target so you auto-follow them...RvR turned PvP into a carebear fest which is why people who started with DaoC cant handle PvP games that dont allow mindless zergs and mass CCing.
That would be the reason why good ol' Jacobs cant get any backing with real money. Much like Koster, the industry knows his flaws and no one wants him at the head of a game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Comments
i played inf solo until SI then played mid for a month before my work stopped me playing. then i played mid classic and mid ywain.. sounds like your sit in worked and got the game fixed so whys that a bad thing? is it bad the devs made a bad choice and listern to the players? sounds like your just mad for being mad's sake
Lol! He makes it sound like his "hardcoreness" is on par with scaling a mountain or fighting in Afghanistan. It's sooooo hard to spend 20+ minutes having one on one PvP duals. *yawn* More like boredom if that's ALL you do. There's some of us who actually appreciate variety & purpose over non-sensical chaos.
I loved WAR. Played it a sshhhheet ton for 6 months, but quit cause endgame was boring. I will throw my money at the ks
As the OP pointed out, a fool and his money are soon parted.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Well, a well played Darkness Spec'ed Spiritmaster and Skald could do this. I thought I was leet.. whats your point? I also had a Max char in Darkfall (which makes AC look carebearish) and I also have 70+ humor in Salem (which makes Darkfall look completely carebare)
so you are basically saying that because you bought a CE for a game that wasnt successful now theres no way in hell he can make a good game anymore? i wonder what would you think hadnt you bought the CE.
I think that just because warhammer was a flop doesnt mean he will keep making flops. There are two factors behind a company making the same mistakes again. 1) did or didnt learn the lesson from previous mistakes. And 2) Add the same team to point #1.
Lets see. He said he has learned lessons. If we cant give him a chance to prove it, then why people keep buying EA games ? how many chances we have given to EA?, WHy buy TSW after AoC?, why play SOE games too?
I really think you are hurt because you bought a CE of a game you clearly didnt like enough. It was a flop but if you didnt see it coming thats your problem. I payed 80 for Swtor deluxe edition before launch and i knew the waters i was about to dive in.
SHow me a company that has been mistake-free since day one.
hes a troll the same as you, its pretty simple to work that out
lol....hahahahahahaha ok thats a first. good one.
As for Salem, the only thing hardcore is the permadeath, there is nothing deep about the class/skills which negates the difficulty of that.
Hardcore PvP comes as much with class abilities as anything else. The ability to CC someone or like in DaoCs case, entire groups that can then be dropped with just a few AoEs removes the difficulty and makes it no different from PvE. In games like Asherons Call where you have no idea what that person has chosen for his character automatically brings the thrill level up because you dont know whats going to happen, and if they happen to have all 4 magical abilities trained its a continual battle that can go basically until one player just plain runs out of stamnia...the PLAYER...not the character. 100% skill based. You only lose if you screw up, not because of a lucky CC or because you raided for 1000 hours and have an uber item of burnurfaceoff.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Guess OP's name explain a lot why he is against Mark Jacob's kickstarter:
archeageking
There exist some fanbois out there who want mmos other than the ones they play to fail, for some reason, lol. I guess they don't know that even IF they are not playing the other game it doesn't mean that they'll be playing the game he likes.
He is not going to get more people playing ArcheAge by badmouthing other kickstarters.
This
Warhammer was great for its Pvp which is what im looking forward too
I truly enjoyed warhammer at release and for a good 6 months. The reason I stopped playing was because of gross imbalance in pvp that was persistent. If they had ever admitted to the problem, made an intelligent and balanced fix, I'd probably still be there. When the whole development team put their heads in the sand and patched to make the imbalances worse - thats when its time to pull up stakes and move on.
What we can do here is see wether or not Mark Jacobs maintains transparency. Wether he caused or did not cause certain design and balance decisions to flaw an earlier product is something we cannot know without having been a part of THAT process. Apportioning full blame to one person is a sort of madness I will refrain from. What I will do is carefully watch everything he has to say, and show, and make my own decisions based upon his product and level of transparency with his crowd forgers.
Working with someone else's IP makes putting out a good game much more difficult than it would be otherwise. Lucas has a habit of getting his grubby little mits into everything that they shouldn't be in.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
A cooder only codes, he doesnt create the plan for the program. A graphics designer only creates graphics, he doesnt come up with what is done with it. The only person/s responsible for SWTOR are the ones that came up with the idea, and implimented it...everyone else was just taking direction.
In other words, SWTOR was its own fail. Warhammer was Mark Jacobs. If a ship sinks, its the captians fault...deal with it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You are exactly the kind of guys that always complaing only for a few bucks.
People buy things every day, stop crying for only $60 that anyone spend on a day just taking some food, go to a movie or just taking some beers.
I really hate this kind o thread, if you are a young guy who still depends from your parents then you have a lot of time to save money.
Money has been made for use it and pay for anyhting you like, so you cant open a thread like this becouse you are cheap.
Cheap ppl should be in other dimension not in real world...
PD: Im pretty sure you dont even buy stuff for yourself becouse you dont like spend money. CHEAPER
Sorry for bad english.
Obviously, none of us will ever know for sure what happened behind the scenes. I always got the impression that Jeff Hickman (Executive Producer) was largely responsible for the craptastic nightmare that was city warfare. He seemed the most passionate about dividing it up into all kinds of separate instances, etc. I could be wrong, though. There were a HUGE amount of people making inputs into how that game eventually turned out, the way I see it. Pau Barnett, for instance, was the Sr. Creative Director. In my opinion, its biggest downfall was trying to reconcile instanced pvp with world pvp with the separate tiers, etc. It just never really seemed right to me that you can completely conquer the outside tier and yet still not be able to technically take it because our side was losing in these invisible instanced hamster wheels (ie, the instanced pvp that was contributing to the conquer pts for the tier, or whatever they called it).
I agree or they need to absolutely keep their word and keep them separate coding.
Wouldn't this be your own fault? It's like believing (so and so) has the best pizza because you read it in an add. Marketing is designed by nature to be deceptive and overstate the quality of a product. The whole purpose of it is to generate sales.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The point is, a lead designer LEADS the design team.
Hickman may very well have come up with the idea but Jacobs was the lead designer and thus agreed and incorporated it into the design. Sadly, that IS how it works, it comes down to the person in charge and Jacobs was in charge.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You obviously haven't been reading Mark's comments. He owns up to and admits that he made mistakes with WAR. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, I don't care how successful or "perfect" you are. The ones who learn from their mistakes and stick to it rather than giving up are the ones who can recover and become successful once again. It's just ridiculous to assume that a person is completely perfect and will never make mistakes. There are plenty of Directors of film that I greatly admire that make some real whoppers every now and again. I don't just dismiss them forever because of one mistake film. They usually continue making great films.
The point is, Mark Jacobs was largely responsible and influential in Dark Age of Camelot which I consider a great success. That alone should earn him respect and a second chance.
The pointis, Mark Jacobs was the Lead Designer of DaoC which also had enough glaring mistakes that it was the first MMO to have 10s of thousands of players do sit in PROTESTS over treatment...he bastardized Hibernia for over a YEAR and it took how long for that realm to start seeing life again after the mass exodus? and on top of it created a PvP envoirment that allowed a group of 3 people to roll over two dozen. Ask anyone that ever ran with a Sklad. RvR was so freaking imbalanced that dozens of PvE nerf hammers couldnt fix it...oh and lets not forget the wonderful command that locks onto an enmey target so you auto-follow them...RvR turned PvP into a carebear fest which is why people who started with DaoC cant handle PvP games that dont allow mindless zergs and mass CCing.
That would be the reason why good ol' Jacobs cant get any backing with real money. Much like Koster, the industry knows his flaws and no one wants him at the head of a game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson