Let us learn from SWG

Calmar · November 2005

FEDev,

If you only do one thing different from SWG, let it be to stick with what the game started out to be. Yes, the games economy will change. People will always try to find that Uber skill. People will always complain about things. BUT, changing the game to something completely different (not once, but TWICE!) is not the way to go.

What i have realized after playing SWG for 2+ years is that once you start down the path of the nerf it is just a downward spiral that causes more problems that it fixes.

I will keep playing SWG untill FE goes to beta(and hopefuly i get in). after that i am outta there!

sinoth · November 2005

So what are you suggesting?

You can't possibly balance an entire game before release. Technically its possible, but without thousands of people playing and interacting, differences in skills and weapon combinations don't show up until longer down the road. I know the downward spiral of the nerf bat, anyone who has played a PvP MMO does, but what is the alternative?

How will the devs fix the system if they can't revamp it or nerf skills?

One suggestion I think is maybe the option of adding a decay rate to weapons considered 'too powerful'. Instead of completely nerfing the damage, like in SWG, keep the weapons the same but each time they are fired they decay a little, and this is not repairable. That way you can still keep the gun for special occasions.

As for skills that are overpowered, I dunno. You almost have to just nerf these. Any clever ideas?

adrir · November 2005

Isn't it a bit early to be worrying about nerf-bats and revamps?

Are the skills going to be put together into set groups of skillsets or professions? At the moment Fallen Earth is utilising a class-less character development system. This means that the whole issue of class-balence with respect to what is currently on WoW and SWG goes totally out of the window.

Also, little is known at the moment about how these abilities interact into combat and PvP. How many of these abilities are going to be active powers? I read somewhere that there will be alot of powers that enable the player to achieve things mentally or manipulate the environment.

My hope is that these special abilites will be notoriously difficult to aquire or develop. Aquiring a viable source of DNA from a hidden lab defended by advanced security and super-mutants. Then having to infuse it into your character. I would love to see powers as something rare and the ones that do appear are very unique.

I think balencing weapons and armor will present more of an issue, however we still do not know much about the combat system over than its FPS style and RPG twist.

Cthulhuvong · November 2005

I think what hes talking about is the constant changes of the entire system. The Combat Upgrade (CU) redid the entire combat system. What most developers don't realize is that everything in a game is connected. When they changed the combat of the game, the changed the game completely. Crafters who used to be able to somewhat defend themselves where now defenseless without some combat training.

The same goes for the New Game Enhancement (NGE) which has completely ripped the heart out of the game. Now most everything is FUBAR, and the game looks like it will be dead inside of a year, once the PS3 freaks get tired of it.

What Calmar is talking about is just make tweeks, make changes, but don't just go "That ability mixed with that power is too much, nerf them!" Instead, find ways to lessen their power without making them worthless. It will stop Template of the Month occurances, and instead allow people to spread out their choices in the game. I think Sinoth's idea about the weapons is very good. As for abilities, I think nerfing a little is better than the heavy handed nerfs most games use, nerfing the entire power out of existance.

RipperjackAU · November 2005

Originally posted by Cthulhuvong

nerfing the entire power out of existance.

A-la, City of Villains - City of Heroes - City of EQ in Tights.

Regeneration... Haste... Taunt... Most tanker abilites and defences. The scrap heap of powers goes on.

sinoth · November 2005

Flavor of the Month in SWG really, really annoyed me. I've played a ton of MMO's to date and SWG is the only one that I can remember having this problem. Can anyone else remember any other MMO that had this similar problem? Gah. FotM. Still makes me angry thinking about it. Why did only SWG have this?

Guess the only way to stop it is to have a solid combat system, and non-class based is a good start.

Cthulhuvong · November 2005

it was because it was the only game where you could only have 1 character, and also the only one where you could go back and change your class. Other games, they would have similar problems, its just that they would be stuck with them and move on to another class until the next updat changed which was the best.

Calmar · November 2005

Originally posted by Cthulhuvong

I think what hes talking about is the constant changes of the entire system. The Combat Upgrade (CU) redid the entire combat system. What most developers don't realize is that everything in a game is connected. When they changed the combat of the game, the changed the game completely. Crafters who used to be able to somewhat defend themselves where now defenseless without some combat training.
The same goes for the New Game Enhancement (NGE) which has completely ripped the heart out of the game. Now most everything is FUBAR, and the game looks like it will be dead inside of a year, once the PS3 freaks get tired of it.
What Calmar is talking about is just make tweeks, make changes, but don't just go "That ability mixed with that power is too much, nerf them!" Instead, find ways to lessen their power without making them worthless. It will stop Template of the Month occurances, and instead allow people to spread out their choices in the game. I think Sinoth's idea about the weapons is very good. As for abilities, I think nerfing a little is better than the heavy handed nerfs most games use, nerfing the entire power out of existance.

yup. exactly...

first it was the Creature Handlers, then it was the Pistoleer/fencer, Then the Full comp Jedi, then Swordsman/Doctor, then Rifleman/combat medic, then the CU happened, then it was the Jedi again, followed by another Creature Handler nerf, then the empowering of Bounty Hunters, Another Jedi nerf, then the over powering of Combat medics, followed with another nerf of Jedi, Now the New CU or AKA NGE (New Game Experience) which removed 22 professions. this included completely removing creature handler that they said was only 1% of the population (which they had made it where you couldnt even stand toe to toe with a evenly matched NPC as one)

oh yeah. throw in 24 other random changes besides the 2 revamps.

Blackmoor · November 2005

I have to agree with the OP.

The trend lately of totally revamping classes and combat systems in game is getting way out of hand. First one i remember was AO , then you had WOW EQ2 SWG COH all do it as wel. Not sure about WOW or SWG but COH and WOW both changed combat and classes so often and to such a degree they never had a chance to work on the problems before they threw everything out and started fresh.

Change is good , but i want it in the game world , not in the core of the game itself. If I am playing a game and i like it i will deal with the nerf/boost cycles, thats a part of the game. When they totally change combat or classes then it becomes a different game from the one i liked to play. Odds are when they do sweeping changes i will try it out. There is a chance of me liking it and continuing to play. There is a better chance of me seeing it as the start of how things will be for the life of the game IE continuing class combat revamps , and say screw this noise i am going to find a game thats somewhat stable at its core.

Nerfs , tweaks , balancing, are all things which should and do happen during the life of a game. Class revamps and combat revamps are things which sure as heck should have been taken care of in beta. Worst case its in the works during beta and gets patched into the game the first month of release because they couldn't make the gold date for the changes. After that the game should be pretty well locked up class, combat , and skill wise.

Those 3 things get revamped after the first month of release no matter how you look at it you are paying for beta testing the game. Not to mention ticking off a good chunk of the player base. Heck warriors in WOW got revamped 3 times since release if not more. I am pretty sure they are working on revamps for every class since most of the classes have been revamped at least once.

As to FOTM, every game i have played has had them. EQ AC AO WOW DAOC COH all had FOTM. They come and go as the nerfs, boosts, and class revamps come into play. Never going to get rid of it unless you make a game with only one class with all the same skills where you have no choice at all in character devlopment. You will have classes that are FOTM and with skill based games you will have templates that are FOTM.

Edit

I forgot about this till Data reminded me. All the games with the class and combat revamps have other things in common.

LACK OF CONTENT

People rip through the content so the games revamp everything to try and slow people down or add something new. Rather than adding the key ingrediant in a combat focued game , which is actual content.

You have nothing to do but raid the same mobs over and over and over again or else work on the pitifully weak tradekskill system, or make an alt and rip through the content again. So they just keep making the problem worse instead of better.

Which would you rather have , a game that added new content to the world and tweaked the classes and combat system. Or a game that pretty much said screw the content and instead changed the classes and combat all the time.

The answer is easy for me , i will take the content. If i want to play with a different warrior or a different combat system i will play a different game. With the combat/class revamps you still have the same game, just a different way to play it. The world remains the same , the quests remain the same, the content remains the same. Heck you get more variance in combat and content in player mods for an FPS game.

Cthulhuvong · November 2005

Also another thing you should learn from SWG. They just fired their Community Relations person, Triggs. Now the community has no connection to the devs. Make sure you always have a good connection between the devs and players (though it seems like you're doing that already, keep up the good job).

molecule · November 2005

Originally posted by sinoth
Flavor of the Month in SWG really, really annoyed me. I've played a ton of MMO's to date and SWG is the only one that I can remember having this problem. Can anyone else remember any other MMO that had this similar problem? Gah. FotM. Still makes me angry thinking about it. Why did only SWG have this?Guess the only way to stop it is to have a solid combat system, and non-class based is a good start.

DAoC always had a FotM in RvR. Still does to this day, it seems...

drycat · November 2005

I agree with the collective here, that CU's are often made without the appreciation of the overall impact that the changes have on gameplay. We all understand and appreciate the necessity of changing skills after testing (nerfing), although in some cases it is purely political. ie. the wizards comlain that the warriors are doing to much damage, lalala. And so things are tweaked. And then again, some are the result of inadequate testing prior to launch, resulting in changes that effectively "neuter" otherwise viable classes into uselessness. Actually, it is kind of funny to see these things happen... well sometimes hehe I suppose you could say that these kind of radical changes often solve your Flavor of the Month issues. I can only think of the poor creature handlers hehe

I think the problem with some political based changes is people's perception is not about the amnount of fun they are having with whatever build/class/job etc. they decided to play, but that someone else should not be allowed to enjoy playing their build more!

But, I definitely hope that we don't see these kinds of issues come up frequently in Fallen Earth. Although I do expect to see changes occuring, since this is the name of being a MMO game.

So, I do have a flavor of the month, though it didn't last long. It was the beserker in EQ2 during the first/second month of gaming. They hit them hard and fast hehe Made you wonder if they even tested the class during closed beta past level 20.

ajmstilt · November 2005

I'd like to add my comments on SWG (played since release, just cancelled my subscription)

SWG was of the sandbox mold of mmorpg's. Create a big complex "sandbox" where players are free to do pretty much what they wanted. As opposed to WoW where there much less freedom, and you are guided along a pre determined path.

The NGE pretty much changed SWG from a "sandbox" game to a "quest" game. I have allways preffed the sandbox type of mmo. The freedom SWG pre Cu proffession system gave was a major draw to be. To not be forced into one of 9 or less classes was wonderful as was the ability to mix and match and change as time went on gave a freedom heretofore unmatched in online gaming.

I fear SOE took the wrong lessons from the success of WoW. WoW was/is as suiccessful as it was because it was made well, there were few bugs at release (compared to SWG which is still in beta in many ways) and it offered compelling gameplay. Unfortunatly it's longevity is still to be tested. SOE saw WoW and said to themselves: "oh we need static classes and quests."

I do hope FE offers more freedom than WoW or CoH or DDO, and instead gives us a world where we can be and do whatever our imaginations allow.

Howdy, Stranger!

Let us learn from SWG

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Let us learn from SWG

Comments