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Intruduction/Reminder to old school MMO spell caster and CC
Hokibukisa
Member Posts: 185
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYYy_plZkg
Made this last night because a lot of people have WoW on the brain and forget what Real Classes are like.
Hoped to cover and demonstrate why its ok and necessary to have interrupted spellcasting, but also why long duration CC combined with long immunity timers are not that bad and imo are actually less aggrivating than lots of little short duration CCs.
For those of you that never experienced old school MMOs, I suggest you go take the daoc or EQ trial and feel the difference for yourself. Its not for everyone but for those that do enjoy it and play with groups that support them and help keep them uninterrupted, you're rewarded with damage that is far superior to anything else.
Comments
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
If CU is going to follow in the footsteps of Daoc it will have longer duration CC than the rest of the games out there. I also agree that long duration CC with immunity timers and escapes is the way to go, the annoying CC's are the ones that don't trigger DR's.
Great initiative here. There's a lot of DAoC players waiting for Camelot Unchained, but there's even more players coming from World of Warcraft that have never experienced anything except that game. Like you mentioned in the video, stun locking someone, in my opinion, is not a sign of skill.. it's a sign of poor game design.
Long duration CC/break on damage, long immunity timers > Thousands of short CC/does not break on damage, with short immunity/diminishing returns
I'm fine with that, 60 seconds is an eternity in a fight.
Agree. WAR was a great example of this. I believe there was something like 100+ forms of CC in WAR (every class had at least a few options) and large scale fights were simply dominated by CC and AoE.
That said, 60 seconds is an absurdly long time in a PvP game. NO CC should delve for even close to that long.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
I hope they will try to make an even better CC and interrupt system than DAOC. Something like 20-30 seconds max CC duration, longer immunity timers (5 minutes?), abilities to break realm mates out of all forms of CC not just mezz, only interrupt on actual damage not when somebody targets you, casts a CC spell you are immune to on you, or a slight breeze blows, etc.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
It all depends on the TTK of the games PvP. In Daoc you had a longer standard TTK than games now-a-days , so having long duration CC with DR's was fine. You also had classes with purge and immunities to those CC effects, CC was used as an opener and to peel targets. Bomb groups generally had a much lower ttk, but subsquently didn't use as much CC. One general mez was enough to setup the bomb then it was generally a matter of can the other team get a mez off quickly enough to buy some breathing room. ( Most didn't as bomb groups hardly targeted coordinated teams) Regardless of how the team chooses to implement CC, if they can capture some of the magic that made Daoc great then I'll deal with whatevers changed.
I am glad someone mentioned the CC in WAR. It was the primary reason I quit that game.
In all the years I played Dark Age of Camelot, I don't think I ever experienced a full one minute long mes. If you were in completely terrible gear without any realm abilities and zero resistances. The longest I remember standing in a mes was against a 50+14 mind spec sorcerer with ToA bonuses.. I think that lasted about 45 seconds and that was extremely rare because I actually had good gear and lots of realm abilities to reduce mes effects. If only purge had been down.
In all honesty, though.. the players that go heavy mes abilities had to sacrifice the utility other specs offered, which made them less diserable outside of guild groups.
@Tumblebutz: I agree.. WAR actually wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of design on paper, but when everyone realized the power of knockbacks and stunlocking, it became ridiculous. I actually had to temporarily leave the game when the whole pull in/aoe death starting occuring. That was the first of many hills down the path of failure. Independently, it wasn't an issue; it worked for the class.. combined with another class ability ended up breaking the entire system. I couldn't agree more. To be fair this type of thing occurs in other games, too.
What people don't get is long duration CC is fine as long as there is counters (like a cure spells given to your allies - which allows them to cure your CC) and proper immunity timers. People are so scared of CC because of how horrible it has been in past games where you can keep getting CCd over and over and over again. CC done right, like it was in Dark Age of Camelot (no, not the beginning of DAoC, it took a bit to perfect) is a totally different story and adds depth and tactics to combat.
Hah 60 seconds of immunity is plenty long enough, if it weren't there would be lots of bitching about them not being long enough which is not the case, if anything they may be too long and need to be shorted, and should ultimately be balanced by how many different types of CC are in the game. (to avoid stunlock situations)
So for DAoC there are 3 primary kinds of CC; mezz, root, and stun.
Stun sucks for everybody but they dont last long so you don't purge those unless you have to as a healer so you can save the day, mezz sucks for everybody breaks on damage and its what people usually purge, and roots suck for pure meless, but because of det and stoicism, the downsides of CC are pretty evenly spread out.
If you take the average amount of uselessness due to CC for all the different classes taking into account all anti-CC in the game, thats what should be used to calculate immunity timers. If for every 1 second that I am likely to be useless in this fight (due to CC), I will be non-useless for 6 seconds. I think thats a pretty fair trade.
And for people quoting 60 second CC, come on, I showed you what melees have to compensate. 80% CC reduction turns those 7 second stuns into speed bumps, and the more common 30 second mezzes into 5 second mezzes, and for the really long duration roots they only last like 15 seconds tops, and thats what you usually save purge for.
As for non-pure melees, don't purge roots, you have stuff you can do while rooted. You are technically CC'd but not useless. If someone hits you to interrupt you, you're no longer rooted and are now immune to it for a full minute.
I like this - makes me nostalgic. Anyhow, I do disagree on one thing, extension groups could really screw an enemy team if they rooted one of their healers whilst pulling. In that specific situation I do find it okay to purge a root (if your melee didn't have a group purge to sacrifice on you).
I'm with you on this and agree with OP. A system with long cc and ways to escape it can be done properly. And such a system is far superior to one with knock backs, stun locks, etc.