End game is rarely ever a goal for me in MMOs....usually when I hit end game the game ends, at least for that character....The only game I have played for any length past end game was EQ and you had AA abilities that you could gain to improve your character.....For me the journey is always the key to a MMO.
Originally posted by theoneandonly there should be lvls but no lvl cup.
That would be a balancing nightmare.
Yes and no, Depends how its done. For example a game like Drox Operative a great little space rpg game, could technacally do fine with no level caps with how the game is setup. Each sector is randomly generated based on stuff u set, and the monsters use an algorithym I believe for how their stats raise, as does the items. They made the game I think with the intent to up the level cap past the current cap of 100 eventually. I don't know why but I am addicted to Drox, I pirated it first, then liked it so much I actually bought it direct from the devolopers website, its honestly the best game I've played in a while it actually keeps me intersted unlike most of the trash these AAA devs want 70 bucks for.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Originally posted by Theocritus End game is rarely ever a goal for me in MMOs....usually when I hit end game the game ends, at least for that character....The only game I have played for any length past end game was EQ and you had AA abilities that you could gain to improve your character.....For me the journey is always the key to a MMO.
Sadly mmo's aren't built anymore to be about the journey, its all about playing solo till lv cap then raiding for worthless gear (these mmo's never put in a use for the raid gear outside of more raids, hell even it being best gear for pvp would work).
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
In GW1 I could get to cap (in Factions) in an afternoon, but then I continued playing that game for years on end. In GW2 I really couldn't be bothered going further than 50 and quit after a few short weeks.
Having a level grind isn't a substitute for having a fun and immersive game.
UO was skilled based, and yes we grinded which was boring as hell at places like the bone wall to macro'n skills to raise them fast.
In DAOC i had a great time and although reaching max level took quite some time, it is the only game ever when i reached max level on my first character that I smiled and felt accomplished, it took quite some time.
In newer games I never had that smile or feeling of accomplishment, maybe because it was too fast or maybe because I had done it before. I tend to feel that it was far to quick though. Games should make players feel like they've done something. Games like WoW where you can find guides to max characters in a few days(sorry i haven't played the game since before BC so i dont know how long it takes now) i feel hurts game play.
Problem these days are the developers are complete retards and make it where players reach max level within 1 week of game play if not quicker like SWTOR was, where people reached max lvl in 3 days of game play if they teamed with even one other person. If the Devoplers don't know how to make end game content they can at least make reaching max level alot longer like they did in City of Heroes/Villains back in the early issues where it toke people sometimes over a year to reach max lvl if they only played 8- 24 hours in a week.
Back when I started playing vanilla WoW (first mmo), I hated how slow leveling was. After playing GW2, I was depressed at how quickly I was tearing through levels. It just didn't feel significant. I think the grind, miserable as it may be, is a feature that I enjoy while leveling because it causes me to bond with my character and remain patient with the experience.
My vote goes to 6+ mo. Not only does a longer experience add to my enjoyment, but it cuts down on the number of people running alts. I'm attached to the archaic idea that you should have one character in an mmorpg.
I never reached max level in Asherons Call...only got to level 124 and I played off and on for 6 years. That was due to it having NO END GAME...it just had lots of GAME and free MONTHLY UPDATES, 2 were larger than most Everquest 1 epacs.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
For me these games are (in theory) an improvement on reading a Conan story or watching a Star Wars movie in that you can step into that world and be part of it. If a world does that then 6 months+. However if that is the case then it can't be too grindy - because it's not the amount of time that makes it fun but *if* you like the world you don't want it to be over too quick (and for me max level is over) - which means there has to be a lot of variety in the game in terms of levelling spots, mobs to fight and distraction activities for when you want a break from levelling.
~
One way out of the endgame obsession might be not having a max level. One practical way to do that might be to not have classes as such but still have class skills.
What i mean by this is have warrior, mage, rogue, crafting etc skill trees with say 50 skills in each tree and then each level you can pick one new skill from any of the trees (as long as you have the pre-requisites of that skill in the particular tree) so a level 30 player might have 30 warrior skills or 15 warrior and 15 mage or 10 warrior, 10 priest and 10 crafting etc. Also at the top of the skill trees would be things like +1 constitution or +100 mana with unlimited raises so you could do that instead if you had your character how you wanted them or even if you played long enough to get all the skills in every tree you could still carry on levelling if you wanted.
(Skills/spells would be restricted to n actives/passives at a time in a deck and a lot of them would be situational or designed for particular mobs so a player wouldn't necessarily get exponentially more powerful as they levelled just more flexible.)
No way can a MMO be better than reading a book, or watching a film for that matter. Each genre has its pros and cons, MMOs are stronger on immersion, weaker on story for example.
If the mmo is based around its endgame, max level content (WoW for instance). I would rather have an EXTREMELY short levelling portion (12 hours max), which is long enough to help players get acquainted with their class and skills but not long enough to discourage alts. Fast levelling also means that less levelling content needs to be added which means more of the budget can go towards the endgame, balances and features.
Meanwhile if the game is not designed around end game content, but is more about being an virtual world and letting players live in it I would love a long time to reach the level cap. For my ideal mmo there would be a long levelling portion BUT the power gain would also be really small, a max level player would be at a maximum 3 times stronger than a level 1 character.
Originally posted by Scot No way can a MMO be better than reading a book, or watching a film for that matter. Each genre has its pros and cons, MMOs are stronger on immersion, weaker on story for example.
Many single player games have better immersion than most MMOs. Dead Space (the first one) is a good example.
And yes, you are right, MMOs are not better (as entertainment) than books or movies. However, people do like variety and hence all forms of entertainment have their place.
Originally posted by Scot No way can a MMO be better than reading a book, or watching a film for that matter. Each genre has its pros and cons, MMOs are stronger on immersion, weaker on story for example.
Well i said improvement rather than better but that's probably not a good choice of words either. What i mean is for example if you're already a big Tolkein fan then running around the shire in Lotro is an ~some word i can't think of~ on the books. Obviously you need the book/film in the first place to make you want to run round in the world the book/film created (or that type of world).
Ive compiled the poll results based on 242 votes and 121 comments so far (nice symmetry there). Here's the breakdown:
Under 1 month = 34 votes or 14.1%
Up to 3 months = 54 votes or 22.3%
Over 6 months = 109 votes or 45%
Other = 45 votes or 18.6%
Based on the 3 option of "up to 3 months and over 6 months we had 163 votes:
Character progression and develoment = 94 votes or 57.7%
A strong community interaction in game = 28 votes or 17.2%
I feel like I'm in a great alternate reality = 41 votes or 25.1%
After going through the 121 comments posted there were two main comments that stood out. The first one being that the levelling should be endless and the second was that there should be no levelling at all but have character development (sandbox style). Looking at the first data set the clear indication as well as supporting comments is that people want to be immersed in the game to develop their character at a slower pace than what many MMO's offer today.
I would be almost inclined to put 60% of the other votes in with the over 6 month votes as many who indicated that they voted "Other" wanted endless content or No levels but character development.
As shown in the second set of stats character progression and development seems to be a huge driving force for a player staying with a game or leaving it. Based on my first poll which I did a few days earlier called - Whats your main reason for playing a MMO game? and is currently in "in the Spotlight" at the top of the forum, nearly 27% of people voted chose "Alternate reality" whilst only 20% chose "Character progression/development" from the 10 options.
The consistant thing here is that these two options came out on top in both polls.
Lastly, it was interesting to note that only one person mentioned that there was no option for 3 to 6 months. There were three reasons for this:
1. I thought it would be a good talking point to comment on to generate interest.
2. I thought people would either tend to select a fast rate of 3 months or faster, OR, they would want to go slow with at least 6 months. To cover this I had the "Other" option to choose from.
Comments
Yes and no, Depends how its done. For example a game like Drox Operative a great little space rpg game, could technacally do fine with no level caps with how the game is setup. Each sector is randomly generated based on stuff u set, and the monsters use an algorithym I believe for how their stats raise, as does the items. They made the game I think with the intent to up the level cap past the current cap of 100 eventually. I don't know why but I am addicted to Drox, I pirated it first, then liked it so much I actually bought it direct from the devolopers website, its honestly the best game I've played in a while it actually keeps me intersted unlike most of the trash these AAA devs want 70 bucks for.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Sadly mmo's aren't built anymore to be about the journey, its all about playing solo till lv cap then raiding for worthless gear (these mmo's never put in a use for the raid gear outside of more raids, hell even it being best gear for pvp would work).
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
In GW1 I could get to cap (in Factions) in an afternoon, but then I continued playing that game for years on end. In GW2 I really couldn't be bothered going further than 50 and quit after a few short weeks.
Having a level grind isn't a substitute for having a fun and immersive game.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
Its hard to say.
I went from UO for a ton of years to DAOC.
UO was skilled based, and yes we grinded which was boring as hell at places like the bone wall to macro'n skills to raise them fast.
In DAOC i had a great time and although reaching max level took quite some time, it is the only game ever when i reached max level on my first character that I smiled and felt accomplished, it took quite some time.
In newer games I never had that smile or feeling of accomplishment, maybe because it was too fast or maybe because I had done it before. I tend to feel that it was far to quick though. Games should make players feel like they've done something. Games like WoW where you can find guides to max characters in a few days(sorry i haven't played the game since before BC so i dont know how long it takes now) i feel hurts game play.
I dunno, its just my opinion.
Back when I started playing vanilla WoW (first mmo), I hated how slow leveling was. After playing GW2, I was depressed at how quickly I was tearing through levels. It just didn't feel significant. I think the grind, miserable as it may be, is a feature that I enjoy while leveling because it causes me to bond with my character and remain patient with the experience.
My vote goes to 6+ mo. Not only does a longer experience add to my enjoyment, but it cuts down on the number of people running alts. I'm attached to the archaic idea that you should have one character in an mmorpg.
Other.
I never reached max level in Asherons Call...only got to level 124 and I played off and on for 6 years. That was due to it having NO END GAME...it just had lots of GAME and free MONTHLY UPDATES, 2 were larger than most Everquest 1 epacs.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Devs talk about taking at least 8 weeks to make 2 weeks (hopefully) worth of content. it's rough.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For me these games are (in theory) an improvement on reading a Conan story or watching a Star Wars movie in that you can step into that world and be part of it. If a world does that then 6 months+. However if that is the case then it can't be too grindy - because it's not the amount of time that makes it fun but *if* you like the world you don't want it to be over too quick (and for me max level is over) - which means there has to be a lot of variety in the game in terms of levelling spots, mobs to fight and distraction activities for when you want a break from levelling.
~
One way out of the endgame obsession might be not having a max level. One practical way to do that might be to not have classes as such but still have class skills.
What i mean by this is have warrior, mage, rogue, crafting etc skill trees with say 50 skills in each tree and then each level you can pick one new skill from any of the trees (as long as you have the pre-requisites of that skill in the particular tree) so a level 30 player might have 30 warrior skills or 15 warrior and 15 mage or 10 warrior, 10 priest and 10 crafting etc. Also at the top of the skill trees would be things like +1 constitution or +100 mana with unlimited raises so you could do that instead if you had your character how you wanted them or even if you played long enough to get all the skills in every tree you could still carry on levelling if you wanted.
(Skills/spells would be restricted to n actives/passives at a time in a deck and a lot of them would be situational or designed for particular mobs so a player wouldn't necessarily get exponentially more powerful as they levelled just more flexible.)
Dephends on how the mmo is set up.
If the mmo is based around its endgame, max level content (WoW for instance). I would rather have an EXTREMELY short levelling portion (12 hours max), which is long enough to help players get acquainted with their class and skills but not long enough to discourage alts. Fast levelling also means that less levelling content needs to be added which means more of the budget can go towards the endgame, balances and features.
Meanwhile if the game is not designed around end game content, but is more about being an virtual world and letting players live in it I would love a long time to reach the level cap. For my ideal mmo there would be a long levelling portion BUT the power gain would also be really small, a max level player would be at a maximum 3 times stronger than a level 1 character.
Many single player games have better immersion than most MMOs. Dead Space (the first one) is a good example.
And yes, you are right, MMOs are not better (as entertainment) than books or movies. However, people do like variety and hence all forms of entertainment have their place.
Well i said improvement rather than better but that's probably not a good choice of words either. What i mean is for example if you're already a big Tolkein fan then running around the shire in Lotro is an ~some word i can't think of~ on the books. Obviously you need the book/film in the first place to make you want to run round in the world the book/film created (or that type of world).
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
OK,
Ive compiled the poll results based on 242 votes and 121 comments so far (nice symmetry there). Here's the breakdown:
Under 1 month = 34 votes or 14.1%
Up to 3 months = 54 votes or 22.3%
Over 6 months = 109 votes or 45%
Other = 45 votes or 18.6%
Based on the 3 option of "up to 3 months and over 6 months we had 163 votes:
Character progression and develoment = 94 votes or 57.7%
A strong community interaction in game = 28 votes or 17.2%
I feel like I'm in a great alternate reality = 41 votes or 25.1%
After going through the 121 comments posted there were two main comments that stood out. The first one being that the levelling should be endless and the second was that there should be no levelling at all but have character development (sandbox style). Looking at the first data set the clear indication as well as supporting comments is that people want to be immersed in the game to develop their character at a slower pace than what many MMO's offer today.
I would be almost inclined to put 60% of the other votes in with the over 6 month votes as many who indicated that they voted "Other" wanted endless content or No levels but character development.
As shown in the second set of stats character progression and development seems to be a huge driving force for a player staying with a game or leaving it. Based on my first poll which I did a few days earlier called - Whats your main reason for playing a MMO game? and is currently in "in the Spotlight" at the top of the forum, nearly 27% of people voted chose "Alternate reality" whilst only 20% chose "Character progression/development" from the 10 options.
The consistant thing here is that these two options came out on top in both polls.
Lastly, it was interesting to note that only one person mentioned that there was no option for 3 to 6 months. There were three reasons for this:
1. I thought it would be a good talking point to comment on to generate interest.
2. I thought people would either tend to select a fast rate of 3 months or faster, OR, they would want to go slow with at least 6 months. To cover this I had the "Other" option to choose from.
and
3. I FORGET
Cheers,
Rhino.