The real reason you can't have Assassins in PvP games is that they are supposed to be exceptionally rare and talented characters.
But in a MMO - everyone can/could simply choose them as their class.
Think about it.
Games in one way or another emulate real life.
Keep Sieges in RvR games with siege weapons and defenses and busting down doors and walls and cutting off supply lines etc...
All based in reality.
What you don't have in reality?
Armies full of ninjas.
There is a reason special forces are rare and limited in number and only used in specific situations.
Only way having stealth assassin ninja types in a MMO based on RvR that would actually work and not be stupid / OP is if only like 1% of the playerbase could play an assassin - have them be realistically your "special forces" troops for the craziest / most difficult missions.
99% of your players should be soldiers/archers.
But you will also have mages and such, which again should only really be 1% to make it not completely ridiculous and OP.
A RvR game I'd love to play? 1% special forces (ninja stealthers) 1% magic users - 98% soldiers/archers.
And I would want to be in the 98% of soldiers/archers.
So all you want is medieval warfare type combat with a few random badasses running around if any at all and that would be a fun game to you? I just can't imagine playing a game for an extended amount of time with so little variety.
Off topic though I find it humourous that a guy that uses a sci-fi inspired name only wants a medieval warfare game.
I like that idea of making it a distance factor for stealth. Beyond a certain distance, they can be 100% invisible, but starting at a certain distance away they start becoming visible, and within a certain radius of you they become 100% visible.
I still like the idea though of if you're standing completely still you can be invisible. I feel like that encourages scouting.
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
Without stealthers with perma-stealth there won't be any soloers or small groups. The game will be either zerging or group vs group. I really hope they make a comeback in CU.
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.
I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.
I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them. And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC.
Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot" and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.
We know Mark I am just teasing since you mentioned before that is how stealth ended up in WAR.
Anyway shadowbane scout class idea is a good one. It was a really fun class to play but one of the few stealth classes that did not border on breaking the game that they were implemented in.
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
Without stealthers with perma-stealth there won't be any soloers or small groups. The game will be either zerging or group vs group. I really hope they make a comeback in CU.
I don't buy that for a second, just because there might be no super invis always on stealth doesn't mean there woldn't be solo players or very small handful groups.
Plenty of solo/small group players don't all play stealth classes.
The real reason you can't have Assassins in PvP games is that they are supposed to be exceptionally rare and talented characters.
But in a MMO - everyone can/could simply choose them as their class.
Think about it.
Games in one way or another emulate real life.
Keep Sieges in RvR games with siege weapons and defenses and busting down doors and walls and cutting off supply lines etc...
All based in reality.
What you don't have in reality?
Armies full of ninjas.
There is a reason special forces are rare and limited in number and only used in specific situations.
Only way having stealth assassin ninja types in a MMO based on RvR that would actually work and not be stupid / OP is if only like 1% of the playerbase could play an assassin - have them be realistically your "special forces" troops for the craziest / most difficult missions.
99% of your players should be soldiers/archers.
But you will also have mages and such, which again should only really be 1% to make it not completely ridiculous and OP.
A RvR game I'd love to play? 1% special forces (ninja stealthers) 1% magic users - 98% soldiers/archers.
And I would want to be in the 98% of soldiers/archers.
Because in reality we have mages shooting fireballs at people right?
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
Without stealthers with perma-stealth there won't be any soloers or small groups. The game will be either zerging or group vs group. I really hope they make a comeback in CU.
I don't buy that for a second, just because there might be no super invis always on stealth doesn't mean there woldn't be solo players or very small handful groups.
Plenty of solo/small group players don't all play stealth classes.
The main reason for a non-stealth class to go solo/small group is to hunt stealthers. If there were no stealthers it would be way less effective than zerging/8v8ing. Don't forget that most players will always choose the path of least resistance.
The main reason for a non-stealth class to go solo/small group is to hunt stealthers. If there were no stealthers it would be way less effective than zerging/8v8ing. Don't forget that most players will always choose the path of least resistance.
I don't know about other people, but for me, the main reason to go solo/small group was to hunt other solo's or small groups. I never once went out to hunt stealthers. I can't imagine people would stop solo'ing or small grouping just because of a lack of stealthers to hunt.
The main reason for a non-stealth class to go solo/small group is to hunt stealthers. If there were no stealthers it would be way less effective than zerging/8v8ing. Don't forget that most players will always choose the path of least resistance.
I don't know about other people, but for me, the main reason to go solo/small group was to hunt other solo's or small groups. I never once went out to hunt stealthers. I can't imagine people would stop solo'ing or small grouping just because of a lack of stealthers to hunt.
Edited for clarity.
Yeah that wasn't possible in OF though. It depends on the map I guess. In old Emain as a soloer without stealth you would never get far enough to meet another soloer. Only due to stealthers were 1v1s / small group fights possible.
Just wanted to say thanks Marc for the honest answers. Even though its mostly vaporware at this point it is important to get your goals and head that way. I was thinking limited stealth, as in lasts only 30-60 secs at a time with a 15 sec cool off now thats a real thinking mans stealth hehe.
I've posted my opinion in that monster long stealth thread I started a week or two ago so I'll be brief here:
Please don't do stealth in any way similar to WAR.
Please keep stealth the way it was in DAOC.
Keep in mind, I'm just talking about stealth, NOT the offensive abilities, poison, critical strike, etc. Those offensive capabilities/burst dps are what made people upset but they are taking it out on stealth.
So many people have posted great things on this thread about what stealth adds (roleplay feel, always have to stay on your toes, someone is always watching you, etc)
Personally if non-timed stealth isn't introduced I probably will not play. I've been down this road before with games like WAR and GW2. I'm not going to be relegated to a gnat-like class that buzzes around the side of a zerg with my "combat stealth".
So please, just make sure that our "stealth" classes don't end up like some sort of lame "riddler" class from batman. I feel like I'm just some court jester like character with a bag of tricks which include throwing sprinkles on tanks and faerie dust on casters etc.
Just repeat what was done in DAOC please but take down the offensive capabilities a bit as to not upset people. That or make non-timed stealth a deep skill that someone has to invest a lot of time/points in to get.
Best regards,
Timetrapper
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
I sort of like the idea of stealthers serving the role of SCOUT. In large scale warfare, the General of the army definitely needs intelligence about enemy whereabouts & movements to be able to plan his next move. Scouts/stealthers would serve a hugely important role here.
Originally posted by Satarious I sort of like the idea of stealthers serving the role of SCOUT. In large scale warfare, the general definitely needs intelligence to be able to plan his next move. Scouts/stealthers would serve a hugely important role here.
Keep in mind there are other ways to design recon classes. There are other ways to design classes that can infiltrate a keep and cause disruption among the defenders.
Pet classes could have special recon pets (eyes, ghosts) they could send into hostile territory. These pets are fast or mostly invisible or whatever, and the player can see what the pet sees. Maybe one of the minions is a skeleton monkey that can even climb walls into keeps or go through the windows and jump very far.
And I'm sure there is some way to design a class that can infiltrate a keep to cause disruption inside. The guy might not live long but it has to be possible to have a class that can do this in a way that is reasonably effective.
Stealth is not the only good option for these things.
That said, stealth is still a good choice for these things (not that stealth and alternate forms of recon have to be mutually exclusive). If CU can tone down the offensive issues time007 pointed out and add a mechanic for everyone else to at least have some sort of chance to offset the invisibility, then stealth should be much less of an issue as a whole. Tricky but doable.
Back in the day of DAoC there were fairly few stealth players compared to overall visible classes because, imo, stealth classes were a pain in the ass to level to 50 and fully equip them.
According to MJ's statements, new players in CU will be able to join RvR fairly quickly and they will be viable as well.
What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?
"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."
That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing
"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."
That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing
This is a good idea. Maybe 1 or 2 stealthers together is fine, but anymore than 3 and they are partially visible. Over 4 and they are visible.
I like it, it can retain the non timed stealth for loners and duos but also make stealth zergs completely visible.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."
That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing
It seems like most everyone's opinion is based on whether or not you played a stealther in the past. It's like Republicans and Democrats arguing: only your side is right.
If you played a visible class then you know how much it sucked not being able to go anywhere without being jumped by a 4-pack of invisible kids. If you played a stealther then you know how much it would suck to not be welcomed in a group because you served no purpose in a game outside of solo'ing or grouping with other stealth campers.
I enjoyed playing a stealther before it became easy to play. Eventually you ran into the problem of not even being able to solo because you'd always find trios or quads of other "solo" stealth classes.
Oh, and watching a squishy stealther dismantle a pure tank was always ridiculous. That should essentially never happen unless it was one of those rare and chaotic moments that Mark posted about.
Minstrels were the only class that I think had stealth done right. Reasonable damage, group viability & speed/stealth for scouting; well done, Mythic. I had a blast on my minstrel in both solo stealth and group options. More stealth done that way will make this guy a happy customer.
It seems like most everyone's opinion is based on whether or not you played a stealther in the past. It's like Republicans and Democrats arguing: only your side is right.
If you played a visible class then you know how much it sucked not being able to go anywhere without being jumped by a 4-pack of invisible kids. If you played a stealther then you know how much it would suck to not be welcomed in a group because you served no purpose in a game outside of solo'ing or grouping with other stealth campers.
I enjoyed playing a stealther before it became easy to play. Eventually you ran into the problem of not even being able to solo because you'd always find trios or quads of other "solo" stealth classes.
Oh, and watching a squishy stealther dismantle a pure tank was always ridiculous. That should essentially never happen unless it was one of those rare and chaotic moments that Mark posted about.
Minstrels were the only class that I think had stealth done right. Reasonable damage, group viability & speed/stealth for scouting; well done, Mythic. I had a blast on my minstrel in both solo stealth and group options. More stealth done that way will make this guy a happy customer.
You've hit upon the REAL issue with stealth. It's not whether it is overpowered or not. It's WHAT STEALTH BRINGS TO THE GROUP that matters. Stealth Zergs were not created by Stealth as an ability. They were created by Stealthers being shunned by every other group. Anyone who played a Stealther from the beginning will atest to this.
Stealth Zergs won't be an issue if Stealthers can serve a larger role in RvR and in groups.
I think the Minstrel is a perfect example of how bad Stealth was in DAoC. No group ever included a Minstrel BECAUSE of his Stealth... in fact, most grouping Minstrels didn't worry about their Stealth spec.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Something like "Group Purpose" would be, what I would focus on regarding stealthers. As long as they promote lonely onehit gankers, stealthers will be hated by a lot of people. But if you actually design them as a viable class, serving certain purposes valuable for the group, then people could start to accept stealth as an ability like healing or anything else.
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.
I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.
I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them. And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC.
Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot" and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.
My general dislike about it is invisible(effectively)->overkill attack. If you are thinking along the lines of a scouting class, then rather than scouts getting uber attacks, give them targetting/highlighting abilities that give big bonuses to the non-scouts for opening attacks. This will make scouts desired without them being killing machines. Kind of like artillery spotters.
Bad design examples for pvp: CoV stalkers(invis-one-shot if the code wasn't changed to prevent the 1 shot), WoW rogues (Invis-stunlock).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."
That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by tlear Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.
I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.
I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them. And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC.
Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot" and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.
Mark,
Please don't screw us stealthers. Stealth was so much fun in DAOC...even with all the stealth hate that you supposedly had. And yes, I've met you at the old Mythic HQ. In 2003/4 we had 2 percival player meets, one where we came and toured the Mythic offices. I was the guy who asked about the left axe nerf and its affects on shadowblades...which you passed off to Mackey like it was on fire.
Stealther's don't change the end game individually outside of scouting. They just make people play smarter and more careful.
Comments
So all you want is medieval warfare type combat with a few random badasses running around if any at all and that would be a fun game to you? I just can't imagine playing a game for an extended amount of time with so little variety.
Off topic though I find it humourous that a guy that uses a sci-fi inspired name only wants a medieval warfare game.
I like that idea of making it a distance factor for stealth. Beyond a certain distance, they can be 100% invisible, but starting at a certain distance away they start becoming visible, and within a certain radius of you they become 100% visible.
I still like the idea though of if you're standing completely still you can be invisible. I feel like that encourages scouting.
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Without stealthers with perma-stealth there won't be any soloers or small groups. The game will be either zerging or group vs group. I really hope they make a comeback in CU.
We know Mark I am just teasing since you mentioned before that is how stealth ended up in WAR.
Anyway shadowbane scout class idea is a good one. It was a really fun class to play but one of the few stealth classes that did not border on breaking the game that they were implemented in.
I don't buy that for a second, just because there might be no super invis always on stealth doesn't mean there woldn't be solo players or very small handful groups.
Plenty of solo/small group players don't all play stealth classes.
Because in reality we have mages shooting fireballs at people right?
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
The main reason for a non-stealth class to go solo/small group is to hunt stealthers. If there were no stealthers it would be way less effective than zerging/8v8ing. Don't forget that most players will always choose the path of least resistance.
I don't know about other people, but for me, the main reason to go solo/small group was to hunt other solo's or small groups. I never once went out to hunt stealthers. I can't imagine people would stop solo'ing or small grouping just because of a lack of stealthers to hunt.
Edited for clarity.
Yeah that wasn't possible in OF though. It depends on the map I guess. In old Emain as a soloer without stealth you would never get far enough to meet another soloer. Only due to stealthers were 1v1s / small group fights possible.
I've posted my opinion in that monster long stealth thread I started a week or two ago so I'll be brief here:
Please don't do stealth in any way similar to WAR.
Please keep stealth the way it was in DAOC.
Keep in mind, I'm just talking about stealth, NOT the offensive abilities, poison, critical strike, etc. Those offensive capabilities/burst dps are what made people upset but they are taking it out on stealth.
So many people have posted great things on this thread about what stealth adds (roleplay feel, always have to stay on your toes, someone is always watching you, etc)
Personally if non-timed stealth isn't introduced I probably will not play. I've been down this road before with games like WAR and GW2. I'm not going to be relegated to a gnat-like class that buzzes around the side of a zerg with my "combat stealth".
So please, just make sure that our "stealth" classes don't end up like some sort of lame "riddler" class from batman. I feel like I'm just some court jester like character with a bag of tricks which include throwing sprinkles on tanks and faerie dust on casters etc.
Just repeat what was done in DAOC please but take down the offensive capabilities a bit as to not upset people. That or make non-timed stealth a deep skill that someone has to invest a lot of time/points in to get.
Best regards,
Timetrapper
Keep in mind there are other ways to design recon classes. There are other ways to design classes that can infiltrate a keep and cause disruption among the defenders.
Pet classes could have special recon pets (eyes, ghosts) they could send into hostile territory. These pets are fast or mostly invisible or whatever, and the player can see what the pet sees. Maybe one of the minions is a skeleton monkey that can even climb walls into keeps or go through the windows and jump very far.
And I'm sure there is some way to design a class that can infiltrate a keep to cause disruption inside. The guy might not live long but it has to be possible to have a class that can do this in a way that is reasonably effective.
Stealth is not the only good option for these things.
That said, stealth is still a good choice for these things (not that stealth and alternate forms of recon have to be mutually exclusive). If CU can tone down the offensive issues time007 pointed out and add a mechanic for everyone else to at least have some sort of chance to offset the invisibility, then stealth should be much less of an issue as a whole. Tricky but doable.
I have one thing to add to the stealther topic:
Back in the day of DAoC there were fairly few stealth players compared to overall visible classes because, imo, stealth classes were a pain in the ass to level to 50 and fully equip them.
According to MJ's statements, new players in CU will be able to join RvR fairly quickly and they will be viable as well.
What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?
The most fun I have ever had in an MMO was stealth groups on Mordred in DAOC.
Stealth classes are essential and I hope to se them in CU. Just make them super squishy without heavy openers.
Limited stealth is dumb.
My 2c
Well one side's opinion does not trump another side's opinion so I wouldn't immediately strawman the man.
Personally I love the idea "Kappen" did post on our forums:
http://www.simply-gaming.com/camelot/forum/showthread.php?tid=32&pid=361#pid361
"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."
That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing
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https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
This is a good idea. Maybe 1 or 2 stealthers together is fine, but anymore than 3 and they are partially visible. Over 4 and they are visible.
I like it, it can retain the non timed stealth for loners and duos but also make stealth zergs completely visible.
I like it.
It seems like most everyone's opinion is based on whether or not you played a stealther in the past. It's like Republicans and Democrats arguing: only your side is right.
If you played a visible class then you know how much it sucked not being able to go anywhere without being jumped by a 4-pack of invisible kids. If you played a stealther then you know how much it would suck to not be welcomed in a group because you served no purpose in a game outside of solo'ing or grouping with other stealth campers.
I enjoyed playing a stealther before it became easy to play. Eventually you ran into the problem of not even being able to solo because you'd always find trios or quads of other "solo" stealth classes.
Oh, and watching a squishy stealther dismantle a pure tank was always ridiculous. That should essentially never happen unless it was one of those rare and chaotic moments that Mark posted about.
Minstrels were the only class that I think had stealth done right. Reasonable damage, group viability & speed/stealth for scouting; well done, Mythic. I had a blast on my minstrel in both solo stealth and group options. More stealth done that way will make this guy a happy customer.
You've hit upon the REAL issue with stealth. It's not whether it is overpowered or not. It's WHAT STEALTH BRINGS TO THE GROUP that matters. Stealth Zergs were not created by Stealth as an ability. They were created by Stealthers being shunned by every other group. Anyone who played a Stealther from the beginning will atest to this.
Stealth Zergs won't be an issue if Stealthers can serve a larger role in RvR and in groups.
I think the Minstrel is a perfect example of how bad Stealth was in DAoC. No group ever included a Minstrel BECAUSE of his Stealth... in fact, most grouping Minstrels didn't worry about their Stealth spec.
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My general dislike about it is invisible(effectively)->overkill attack. If you are thinking along the lines of a scouting class, then rather than scouts getting uber attacks, give them targetting/highlighting abilities that give big bonuses to the non-scouts for opening attacks. This will make scouts desired without them being killing machines. Kind of like artillery spotters.
Bad design examples for pvp: CoV stalkers(invis-one-shot if the code wasn't changed to prevent the 1 shot), WoW rogues (Invis-stunlock).
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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That is an interesting suggestion.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Mark,
Please don't screw us stealthers. Stealth was so much fun in DAOC...even with all the stealth hate that you supposedly had. And yes, I've met you at the old Mythic HQ. In 2003/4 we had 2 percival player meets, one where we came and toured the Mythic offices. I was the guy who asked about the left axe nerf and its affects on shadowblades...which you passed off to Mackey like it was on fire.
Stealther's don't change the end game individually outside of scouting. They just make people play smarter and more careful.