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Lets talk about good RvR motivation / implications
BowbowDAoC
Member UncommonPosts: 472
I remember how often it could happen in DAoC, but was so much worst in WAR, how there could be so much keep taking that didnt involve any RvR fights. lots of time (mostly in WAR) people would go for the non occupied keeps to get the fast rewards given by the Lord of the keep when he died. Most people went for the reward, period, it killed the good RvR.
So instead of making insta rewards for keep taking, i'd try to go for a LOSS of something when you lose a keep instead. I'M pretty sure people would run to defend it. As in DAoC relic keeps, where losing that relic meant you lost bonuses both for PvE and PvP.
So instead of going back n forth to capture empty keeps, as a defender you would run to not lose thoses bonuses, and as attackers, you d have to use strategies, coordination and such to be able to capture a keep.
Another option would also be to implement a sort of timer on keeps. once you lose a keep, there could be a delay of lets say 6 hours before the keep can be captured again. So when you start losing your keeps that lets say gave you access to DF or something else that mostly everyone value, you would sure go fast to defend the remaining ones in your possession to keep DF access.
Since most of mmmorpg players strive for loots, rare equipments, money and stuffs, dont insta reward people that capture keeps, give consequence to keep loss.
RvR action has to be not only the end game, but also the means to other objectives that will motivate everyone.
Give access to certain places with controls of towns/villages, access to other places by taking keeps, and so on. Each main parts of RvR should give different access/bonuses etc.
Bring on other ideas to reinforce good RvR !
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
Comments
Overall I think the largest mistake of war was the lack of reward for killing players, and I think that should be held above almost all other rewards.
I always liked the idea of rewarding defense far more than rewarding offense. In those cases the incentive to take a high priority target is so you can defend it (to farm). Without knowledge of the systems going into place it's hard to say if this would be a good idea for the game.
Obviously relics are a nice reward, though I wouldn't go so high as 20% melee/magic bonuses like daoc. It was a step in the right direction for giving a sense of loss or gain for your actions.
I liked the later additions in daoc of rewarding people for repairing objectives. This is another one that might not have a place in game.
Area bonuses around objectives get mentioned alot around here, and I think that's a great way to go whether it be resource, crafting, or rvr bonuses.
Having a delay on re-taking a keep is a horrible idea. Newly taking keeps will be focused targets before they can get "upgraded" or however they handle that, and the more a dungeon like DF ( if even implimented ) swaps hands the better.
I do agree you give rewards for defending, encourages the situation where big battles happen more, else like you said will turn into keep taking pve game in a rvr zone
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I hope we wont be able to level and advance from taking empty keeps. I hope they will be 0 rewards for taking empty keeps and objectives.
I think the opposite. The interesting part of RVR is more than mere PVP. IF PVP is the interesting part, do it like wow. Make taking objectives like keeps, castles and cities THE thing that matters. It's ok if you want your RVR to just be PVP.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
There are rewards for defending in WAR and it's not working. It's still better to take a keep and leave it alone.
The author of this topic is right. There need to be a lose for all the realm if they lose the keep.
I suggest doing something like this.
Let's imagine all 3 realm have 6 keeps per realm.
Each keep gives different bonus to allies.
For example:
Keep 1: 5% melee dmg
Keep 2: 10%+ crafting spd
Keep 3: 5% spell dmg
Keep 4: 25% faster respawn rate of guards at keeps
Keep 5: 10% tougher guards
Keep 6: 15% more exp / rps ?
etc. that might be something else. I'm just giving idea.
when the realm lose for example keep 1 it will instantly affect everyone because they would lose 5% melee dmg. What's more enemy would get this 5% melee dmg.
Because of it people would want to defend and in the same time attack the keeps.
Let's make keep 6 the closest to enemies because of rp bonus. There would be the most action because of people being greedy for more exp / rps ^^
Everytime I've seen objectives matter more than player kills it ends up being a trading game. You could say the same for player kills because of swtor, but you can stop kill trading. You can't stop people trading keeps and killing themselves on bridges when they meet any opposition.
Relics should be more rewarding than anything. Empty keeps and towers should give nothing other than the foothold you gain.
My solution is great for it.
Nobody would give away a keep that gives 15% more rps/exp. Everyone would want it. Everyone would want to have 3 keeps at once. It would be great :-)
I'm a firm believer that in order to cause people to defend something willingly, they must stand to lose something individually, as well as nationally; in this case, as a realm.
All keeps should yield a reward for capture, whether it's defended or not. If you look at Dark Age of Camelot, even an unclaimed or undefended keep or tower rewarded realm points - granted, it wasn't much, but it yielded realm points. The same should be true for Camelot Unchained, as there will be situtations when another realm simply won't be available to defend.
The defense, however, is what can be implemented to cause people to defend willingly? Increased base realm points or experience for defenders per kill, as well as "reward ticks" that occur every 10 to 15 minutes. In addition, if a keep or tower is owned by a guild, provide a higher "reward tick" for the entire alliance associated to the guild.
That's not enough though as it fails to involve the realm as a whole; Darkness Falls style dungeon dynamically changes the involvement of everyone. Make the dungeon extremely rich in crafting components, as well as just overall probability of gaining money.
Still, some players aren't touched by this as certain players are more interested in crafting or the social aspect of the game. As rare as it may seem, it occurs frequently in MMOs. Perhaps introduct crafting bonuses to relics or some type of complex shrine that's capturable in RvR that's only available if you control all of your own territory and some of another realm?
You get the picture.. it has to reward defense slightly more than offense, but still provide the carrot on the stick to launch an assault against an enemy beyond just wanting to kill the enemy. An incredible feature would be some type of rivalry system that allows bounties to be issued by guilds or alliances.
EDIT:
Perhaps introduce a system that rewards certain bonuses only if you own all your own keeps, as well as territory in another realm? Example: +3% realm points increased if XYZ realm owns all their own territory and is in control of 2 Towers and 1 keep of an opposing realm.
You're right, your suggestion is great for it. I don't know if i'd take it further (more bonuses for owning all of yours and more keeps) because then you get the overpopulated side with so many bonuses it's insane. I think enemy keeps should be focused on relics and denial of those keep bonuses.
Make keeps gain value over time. The longer they are held the more points they are worth to capture. That will stop people from taking only certain keeps, and naturally make keeps closer to the enemy's stronghold (easier to defend) worth more.
Award points over time based on contribution, similar to how public quests in WAR awarded different reward tiers.
Once a keep is capatured the "points" it is worth can tick out in payments over a certain amount of time based on the level of the keep. Players would not need to remain nearby to get their points, it would be based on the contribution as mentioned above. If they leave there would just be higher odds of them dropping down in contribution level. I would suggest between 30min-1hour depending on keep level. While the keep is in this countdown it would be considered "contested."
If the keep is recaptured by the original holder while contested, award a certain % of the current value of the keep to them. Thus, The sooner the keep is recaptured the more it is worth.
So attackers get very little from a brief capture, and defenders are encouraged to try to get the keep back ASAP. Someone that runs in at the least second before a capture would get very little contribution points, though they could stay to defend and prehaps increase in contribution, even passing by some of the other folk, if the other folk don't stay around.
Here is my idea - Localized Banking!
Make it so that each keep/structure can have a bank attached to it where players can deposit things like materials, mounts, whatever. If you take the structure you get everything in the vaults. This would lead to a situation where players wouldn't put much of anything in the highly contested keeps because they wouldn't want to lose everything but the deeper you went into a realm the more stuff you'd see on the vaults. This would make it so that players would want to defend so they don't lose all the stuff they put in the vaults.
The reason players would want to put stuff inside structures is a few reasons.
First lets say you are a crafter and you found this really awesome forest with lots of rare wood. Well, it's gonna be in a contested area so every so often you would want to deposit your wood in a nearby castle. After a few hours of harvesting the wood you ask a hauler to move the wood from the castle to a more safe castle deeper in your realm.
Second, lets say your alliance is planning to invade the Arthurians this weekend. Well, that is going to require a lot of siege, and mats to rebuild the castles you will destroy. Your realm would start moving these items to a heavily defended keep near the border so that once the weekend comes you can just run back and forth from that keep to resupply yourself.
Third, lets say the Arthurians are attacking deep into viking territory, Tuatha de Denan scout it and do a suprise attack deep into the heart of the Aruthurin homeland, Downing one of their huge keeps and hauling back lots and lots of materials stored there, forcing the Arthurians to fall back and defend.
This idea also goes along with my Hauler idea where only crafters can carry massive amounts of materials and siege, so you would need a couple haulers in your raid to truly be effective, both to get the rewards from the structures you take as well as taking those structures.
This system would motivate everyone to defend because as the other realms get deeper and deeper into your realms territory you are losing more and more items/materials.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
I really hope they won't put timers, it would piss me off if I can't reclaim our undefended guild keep.
I will, personnaly, don't care about 15% or even 45% more rp if I have to stay behind the walls like a coward.
I even prefer gets no RP and good fights in a huge plain.
Like other in the thread, I use to dislike the golden carrots
In my opinion, THAT's the way to go to have a fun and interresting RvR.
And +1 for localised banks, it increase the power of trading by creating hubs. A game within the game.
I like the idea of bonuses per keeps held, increased RP's per keeps held is a good idea, but make the increased RPs player earnt only, like you dont get them for capturing more keeps, this way you reward keeping hold of your keeps for the bonus and also reward the people who are out holding off the enemy from taking your keeps.
I think its a fine line you have to balance between rewarding keep captures and rewarding player kills, if one is blatantly better than the other people wont bother with the lesser one, so if you can achieve a good balance between the two your onto a winner.
I have an idea.
For example Keep 1 belonging to Arthurian is giving all allies 1% exp/rps bonus, each hour it gives 1% more up to 20%.
If enemy takes this keep and if enemy holds the keep for for example 5 hours. Enemy realm will get 5% more rps/exp bonus. Of course it will also affect Arthurian realm because they won't get any bonus from this keep anymore.
Each keep should give different bonus. It would make people want keeps badly. They would want to defend them and in the same time attack.
time based ticking bonuses are also a good way to go i think too, the longer your realm holds xxx keeps its bonuses on kills increase, this spurs the members on to keep hammering the enemy, the enemy doesnt want 1 realm reaping more points than them, they fight back harder, throw in the 3rd realm and you start getting pseudo alliances between realms that exist purely until the dominant realm is toppled.
Love it.
Oh and to make it worth taking...
After you take the keep for first 4 hours the rate bonus increased is higher so for example
After taking keep:
2% bonus to rps/exp
1 hour later: 4%
2h : 6%
3h: 8%
4h: 10%
5h: 11%
6h: 12%
...
10h: 15,5%
11h: 16%
...
What's more it would also give tactics. People would start from taking keeps that would give faster guard respawn or tougher guards to all other keeps in order to not to lose other keeps etc. and in order to make enemy realm vulnerable.
But you don't need to stay behind wall. Why? Because keeps from other realm will give you benefits too if you take them. So you will move to other keeps in order to have even higher bonuses. And while you move there you might meet many times people in open, because that people will move towards your keeps to also get that bonuses.
All realms will want as many keeps as they can at the same time. It will require good leader / team work to keep everything and it will give a lot of action.
A trading game? And kills never were. That's a joke. Sounds like a design problem, make it so that you have a tug of war situation. If you choose to go with rewards that are item/ability centric, design it so they are not permanent. So when you loose control, you lose the benefit. Buff the sword rather than allow the purchase of an over powered sword.
Trading wouldn't help as both sides aren't collecting long term benefits.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
heres what i would like
you get xp for kills (both damage done and killing blows)
you get xp for healing
if youre a tank, you get xp for mitigating damage
then, there is....
a % modifier based upon the ammount of teritory your realm currently owns
a % modifier based upon how small your realm is compared to the other 2
this gives them lots of different numbers to tinker with to get the balance right, and also doesn't incentivise keep trading or turtling
I like this idea waaaaay too much! It would add incentives to defending keeps as well as making RvR a much more strategical game. Keeps would not be given up easily and taking a keep would be carried out only to pillage their resources or to gain a new staging area for your next assault. It also brings crafters into the mix and forces players to work together, as in protecting crafters and organizing a push/hold.
It's late a night, so this post may not make complete sense by the time I review it in the morning. Anyway, here we go:
Typically in RvR style games, keeps are very simple; they're an outer wall protecting a larger inner structure. Something like this:
Instead, perhaps we should start thinking in terms of something completely different than what's presented in current games on the market, including Dark Age of Camelot. Keeps should incorporate miniature towns that feature unique crafting bonuses, rare recipes and materials sold by npcs, and special NPC merchants.
Something like this:
Camelot Unchained will not feature the large amount of villages, towns, and unique attractions we find in games that host a healthy supply of PvE content. How do we invoke the masses to actually defend structures instead of just swapping hands? Allow guilds to claim Keeps and literally build a town inside the walls. Obviously, it wouldn't be on scale to the picture above, but it would promote realm pride and provide unlimited possibilities:
This x10, I mentioned this before and imo having players invest PERSONALLY in "keeps" by literally having them function as their housing/crafting area and things makes the purpose of defending them so much more worthwhile.
Because instead of defending a "no name random keep your realm controls" you are defending your home, your guilds home, people you know who live there, etc.
The entire concept of a keep shoudl be this imo.
A guild plops down a keep, then walls, and within these walls people craft their houses, a bank for gold storage, crafters have their stations/resource banks there, stables, and many other things which the guild and individual players can invest in and upgrade/make better.
Over time the guild can invest more in improving it's defense, from starting out iwth cheaper wooden walls, to stone, etc. Having defenses like towers, upgrading them tot he point you can have "kill holes" in them for archers/mages to fire from, then having things like boiling oil traps, etc.
So the longer/more time an dmoney a guild invest in their home the bigger and better it gets, and the harder it is to take over. HOWEVEr at the same time, the better the reward from it. As other guilds should be able not only to attack it, but capture it and reap the rewards from it, taking over the structures, being able to repair them (if not destroyed/razed) and other elements.
The more plyaers invest in the keeps/towns within them, the more they will want to fight to defend them and care about them, and all the more worthwhile the RVR will be to fight for them. Then when you do lose them, the impact of that will mean more then any other kind of loss or reward you get.
Imagine a smaller guild sieging a bigger keep through smart tactics and strategy and taking it over, that'd mean a lot more to them then if it's just a random keep controlled by npc's that give some slight bonus to your character.
Guys, I think that you are rly lookin on this "problem" with keep taking and trading, rewards for capturing, defending..etc., from wrong perspective.
You dont need any rewards for it!!!
Sure you will get some fixed XP reward for taking small tower, keep or large stronghold, etc., but like MJ stated many times, it will be splited in RVR XPs for fighters, Craft XPs for crafters building siege weaponry, and so.....so it will not be classical keep grinding like it was in WAR, rly no way!
And sure, that there will be special rewards for attackers and defenders, BUT -
NOT LIKE CLASSIC RVR BONUS! Special rewards should be very simple - keeps should have upgrades, crafted by players (whitch will reward builders with Build XPs) - workbenches, building wiht bonuses, armories, player houses, etc. - all this keep upgrades will be motivation for defenders to defend it and for attackers to claim it, its rly simple.
Just stop with artificial bonuses and rewards, make it rly simple and with sence of realism in it!
EDIT: Ohh, guys before me, just pointed same idea
There is alot being said, and most of it has merit in a form or another. The big thing I think that is usually missed when discussing PvP on any level is psychology. This has been an area that some games have done better than others. Take the worst example of a PvP centered game, WoW. It would probably amaze many of you to realize just how many people would actively defend Thrall back in vanilla when he was attacked. There was absolutely nothing to gain from it. You earned literally nothing for killing him, and nothing for defending him. But it happened on LARGE scales all the time. This is because the players became invested in the lore of that character, and he would issue a call to arms when attacked. Anyone in the area would hear that cry to battle, and feel inclined to help, if for no other reason than pride.
The more you turn PvP into a reward scheme, the less actual invesment your players have toward it. They seek only the spoils and leave it when they've been earned. Doing nothing more than having the NPC's of your keep begin to shout meaningful dialogue or shame the players for their failure can do a lot to encourage PvP in ways that go beyond simple gear and levels. But if you're looking to find what ways to, through systems, get players involved...
Loss is the key. There must be something great, something DEEP, lost. Not just quests, or arbitrary buffs. The entire flow of your play must be dramatically altered. Roads that would take you to dungeons and resources must be cut off by enemy forces. Think of how losing even a single tower affects the mode of play in a game like League of Legends. You can't even approach the battle the same way, its loss has affected all of your choices, and the choices of your team. Taking the WoW example earlier, if the defeat of thrall drastically changed your experience, more would seek to protect it or reclaim it when lost. Imagine how heated the battles would have been if, upon defeat, Alliance NPCs appeared in the heart of Orgrimmar and held Thrall chained to his throne. Every player suddenly found 25% of his gold earned taken away and shop costs doubled. People would have rallied HARD. Even if they already lost, players would begin moving together to take back the heart of their empire. So long as this loss did not prevent them from gaining all the skills and gear the could have otherwise, it wouldn't break the flow of play in technical terms such that you'd never wanna play the underdog side. Quite the opposite, you'd see players moving to underdog sides just to prove a point.
Its something to think on. You can be harsh in penalizing loss without undermining the losers strength. You can make small changes that affect the losers psychology, or audio clues that create a sense of urgency and need. The best motivation to stand up for your side is the shame of failure, more than the things you lose. Emphasize what ways you can really bring that shame home, without creating a crippling of the player, and it will do wonders.