Did anyone here play Shadowbane? I'm completely surprised no one ever brings up how stealth worked in that game. It wasn't perfect, but the game is a decade old and could be polished a bit more. Stealth, not complete invisibility brings a whole new dynamic to seige warfare through scouting and wreaking havoc in a different location to cause confusion amongst defenders. I like the idea of having stealth, but also having certain classes that completely counter it. For instance, shadowbane scouts could reveal stealthed people to their groups at certain ranges. It added a whole new aspect to the game because you had to constantly be aware of where you were stealthing because a scout could be stealthed right behind you, just waiting for you to get close enough to his team to kill you unaware. I think it also balanced out the issue a bit more, because even if you ganked someone and managed to stealth and start running away, you ran slower, so there was still always a chance the group with a scout could come up on you and ruin your day.
Any ability that allows a stealther to abandon a fight is stupid in my opinion. You already have the option to choose what fight you engage in, why should you also have the option to leave it at will?
You can pick your fights, if you choose poorly, you die.
You already have stealth, if you get caught, you die.
And I think archers should be able to take on a role as stealther hunters. Maybe give them the ability track/find hotspots and set a pet on them or something. Rogues get skills to throw off a chase.
I hate the idea of stealth simply being a sanctuary for rogues to hang out in unopposed so long as they stay out of people's face. There should be a risk to it like anything else.
I mean Tanks could take on Archers for days by blocking almost everything thrown at them, mages killed tanks, assassins killed mages...rangers kinda did too and sometimes assassins and rogues.
Could give rangers a more specific role by letting them play the hunters and keep stealthers on their toes. It would be a hard line to toe trying to make it so stealth isn't negated, as that isn't my intention for it, but I think it would be awesome if implemented correctly.
I imagine coming up to an MG and being able to search for ambushers, while rogues do all they can to try to remain unseen.
Sorry for the ramble post, kept getting ideas as I typed and it's probably all incoherent anyway.
Araga: I never did play Shadowbane, but knowing what I do about it makes me wish I had. I remember toying around with some character builders for it and thinking the builds could be pretty cool.
Popori: I realize that a lot of ppl feel that way, which is why I created this thread to discuss constructive alternatives.
It was not meant to be StealthRant#2173 lol. We have plenty of those, one of which is on the front page. (Though I DO enjoy a good rant... Don't get me wrong!)
While I did enjoy daoc stealth, I am willing to back a product that replaces it with other useful tools for rogues.
Originally posted by PerfArt Araga: I never did play Shadowbane, but knowing what I do about it makes me wish I had. I remember toying around with some character builders for it and thinking the builds could be pretty cool.
Popori: I realize that a lot of ppl feel that way, which is why I created this thread to discuss constructive alternatives.
It was not meant to be StealthRant#2173 lol. We have plenty of those, one of which is on the front page. (Though I DO enjoy a good rant... Don't get me wrong!)
While I did enjoy daoc stealth, I am willing to back a product that replaces it with other useful tools for rogues.
I wasn't trying to rant, more or less just believe that sometimes a system isn't broken, it just needs supporting systems to make it work.
As somoene who played Stealthers almost exclusively for many years i like these changes, they fit Assassin types really well, for Archery types though i would give them less sneaky stuff and more utility type stuff like Flare arrows that ping the map to show where fights are, smoke arrows that leave clouds behind, imagine a dozen scouts laying down a smoke screen and then 100 of their friends running throug it! crap yer pants time
also give Archers run boosts and stationary camoflauge etc, their job is to get in places, hide, and observe, then let their realm know whats going on, give them the tools for these, arrows that root by pinning the foot to the floor etc, concussion arrows that stun or mez an oponent for a short duration broken by combat so they can escape etc
Now we're gettin' somewhere. I am loath to reference WoW, but the "flare" arrow was a good idea. A "snare" arrow? sure. Volley/Salvo/AoE damage type arrow? yes. A stun/mezz/concussion arrow? NO!
For Archers: mobility, STATIONARY camouflage or stealth, and utility in the Bow line.
For Assassin types: mobile stealth NOT intended for "first strike" use, utility in their abilities for realm based stuff. I'm really liking the idea of a "sabotage" type ability to be used on siege equipment. And some ability that allows them to sneak into a keep/castle and expedite the process of breaching the gate.
I would still move away from the "assassin" theme. I like the idea of "infiltration." NOT an Infiltrator from DAoC (you were all scum!) but a class whose purpose is to literally infiltrate the enemy base.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by Araga Did anyone here play Shadowbane? I'm completely surprised no one ever brings up how stealth worked in that game. It wasn't perfect, but the game is a decade old and could be polished a bit more. Stealth, not complete invisibility brings a whole new dynamic to seige warfare through scouting and wreaking havoc in a different location to cause confusion amongst defenders. I like the idea of having stealth, but also having certain classes that completely counter it. For instance, shadowbane scouts could reveal stealthed people to their groups at certain ranges. It added a whole new aspect to the game because you had to constantly be aware of where you were stealthing because a scout could be stealthed right behind you, just waiting for you to get close enough to his team to kill you unaware. I think it also balanced out the issue a bit more, because even if you ganked someone and managed to stealth and start running away, you ran slower, so there was still always a chance the group with a scout could come up on you and ruin your day.
I had an OP Mage Assasin there, fun class but should not exist in any other game again, also played Scout, Thief and every other class lol Overall I agree they had probably the best invisibility type stealth system. Far superrior to DAOC I think.
How about getting away from assasin stuff make a scout and a thief classes? Thief would be able to steal inventory items, run fast have semi decent combat ability, scout could pop thiefs, track(key feature), be able to use bow for debuffing but would be weaker 1on1 vs thief?
Originally posted by Araga Did anyone here play Shadowbane? I'm completely surprised no one ever brings up how stealth worked in that game. It wasn't perfect, but the game is a decade old and could be polished a bit more. Stealth, not complete invisibility brings a whole new dynamic to seige warfare through scouting and wreaking havoc in a different location to cause confusion amongst defenders. I like the idea of having stealth, but also having certain classes that completely counter it. For instance, shadowbane scouts could reveal stealthed people to their groups at certain ranges. It added a whole new aspect to the game because you had to constantly be aware of where you were stealthing because a scout could be stealthed right behind you, just waiting for you to get close enough to his team to kill you unaware. I think it also balanced out the issue a bit more, because even if you ganked someone and managed to stealth and start running away, you ran slower, so there was still always a chance the group with a scout could come up on you and ruin your day.
I had an OP Mage Assasin there, fun class but should not exist in any other game again, also played Scout, Thief and every other class lol Overall I agree they had probably the best invisibility type stealth system. Far superrior to DAOC I think.
How about getting away from assasin stuff make a scout and a thief classes? Thief would be able to steal inventory items, run fast have semi decent combat ability, scout could pop thiefs, track(key feature), be able to use bow for debuffing but would be weaker 1on1 vs thief?
He has already stated somewhere he's not interested in people losing actual items on their character, that system is a horrible design and a lot of people will end up quitting especially if you have to work hard to get certain items via crafters.
Maybe you could steal components, gold, potions, perhaps add ability to sabotage things, setup aoe traps etc. so you would be a major PITA without killing people outright from stealth
stealth classes hunter/scout/ranger these are wildernest servivers there skills at hiding and moving are in a wilderness and should be linked to this tarrain type in towns and villages and keeps it should be reduces massavly or negated totaly
assasins exsist and not as rare as some ppl think but think how do they earn there living they get payed by people with mony mostly to kill people with for verious resons most of there training would be getting in to places where there target is so i would like to see 2 types of stealth for this class hide in shadows they can stealth around built up areas any where there is a wall and shadows for them to hide in /sneek around but usless inopen areas( nothing to hide in)as the people paying them willmost likely be living in towns or cities most of there training would have been in this type of tarrain and a mimic skill where they can phisicaly disgise them selves as some one else to get close to there target a different type of stealth hiding in plain sight and being what people expect to see
also assasins should be squishy they shouldnt be wearing armour at all to heavy bulky and restrictive to clime up walls to that open window to get in side disgiusing your self as a servent servents dont wear armour
but they should still hit hard they know where to hit you where it hurts their job after all is killing people :-p
this would give you stealther classes in to use in both scouting and attacking towns and keeps but not stealthers that can stand in the middle of an open area with out cover or any where to hide and one shot any one who comes by they have to be a bit more sneeky than that
I think stealth was fine, and that a lot of people unimaginatively associate stealth with I-Win scenarios, when that does not need to be the case at all.
I think there's a happy medium to be found between DAOC's old PermaStealth and WAR's limited melee stealth mechanics.
You could make permastealth fairly fragile and key it to enemy line-of-sight checks (tho' tracking the angle to an enemy is a bit more work for the server than just tracking proximity). If an enemy player or NPC faces the stealther, there should be a chance for stealth to break if their is a clear LOS (treat it like a ranged attack from a turret). If the stealther is good enough to keep out of LOS, he should be able to infiltrate whatever they want.
For ranged types, strengthen the stealth when they are motionless... simulating a hunter's ability to use camouflage... but perhaps weaken it when moving compared to an assassin-type.
Give the assassin types the WAR-style melee stealth rush ability as a very strong, short duration stealth that can take them past guards or let them close with their targets.
I think there's a happy medium to be found between DAOC's old PermaStealth and WAR's limited melee stealth mechanics.
You could make permastealth fairly fragile and key it to enemy line-of-sight checks (tho' tracking the angle to an enemy is a bit more work for the server than just tracking proximity). If an enemy player or NPC faces the stealther, there should be a chance for stealth to break if their is a clear LOS (treat it like a ranged attack from a turret). If the stealther is good enough to keep out of LOS, he should be able to infiltrate whatever they want.
For ranged types, strengthen the stealth when they are motionless... simulating a hunter's ability to use camouflage... but perhaps weaken it when moving compared to an assassin-type.
Give the assassin types the WAR-style melee stealth rush ability as a very strong, short duration stealth that can take them past guards or let them close with their targets.
Any stealth that allows Stealthers that huge opening strike is going to be reviled. I think what gave Stealthers the perception of being OP'd was that each time you fought a Stealther, you were starting the fight with half health (and sometimes you were stunned, to boot.)
If the stealth is used ONLY to close distances, I'd support it.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Why is everyone so into this game I mean I loved daoc but really name one kickstater game that has actually came out I am starting to think kickstarter is a cash grab and nothing more.
Originally posted by zephermarkus Why is everyone so into this game I mean I loved daoc but really name one kickstater game that has actually came out I am starting to think kickstarter is a cash grab and nothing more.
Mostly because of rose colored glasses I suspect. That and forgetting the various problems of the game, at the time. But thats the nature of these things.
most of these ideas like to take a stealthers stealth away and give him some kind of radar ability or whatever are to realm fight orientated in my opinion
rvr isnt only about zerg vs zerg ... there has to be a place for 1on1, grp vs grp, small men and all the different play styles too
and stealthers are mostly solo classes so degenerating this solo class to a realm warfare class only is kinda unfair since you take most solo rvr players class option away
i personally liked perma stealth even though i never played a stealther because you allways had to pay attention as soon as you went into the rvr zone because there was allways the chance to get hit by a stealther ... sometimes even inside of a keep when you went to your grp as a caster
most of these ideas like to take a stealthers stealth away and give him some kind of radar ability or whatever are to realm fight orientated in my opinion
rvr isnt only about zerg vs zerg ... there has to be a place for 1on1, grp vs grp, small men and all the different play styles too
and stealthers are mostly solo classes so degenerating this solo class to a realm warfare class only is kinda unfair since you take most solo rvr players class option away
i personally liked perma stealth even though i never played a stealther because you allways had to pay attention as soon as you went into the rvr zone because there was allways the chance to get hit by a stealther ... sometimes even inside of a keep when you went to your grp as a caster
There is a difference between "solo players choosing to play Stealthers" and "Stealther players being forced to solo." The design of the Stealthers in DAoC forced them to solo or group (almost) exclusively with other Stealthers. That is just poor design.
I agree with you that there absolutely needs to be the options for solo play, small group play and large group play. But I think it will be very, very detrimental to the classes (and game) if classes are designed for only one those specific playstyles, to the exclusion of the others.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a class shouldn't have the ability to solo. I'm saying: giving a class "solo specific abilities" to the exclusion of group friendly abilities is just a bad idea and will ghetto-ize Stealthers once again.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Stealth tends to be too powerful in a small skirmish type situation and too weak in a large group enviroment.
If most of the game in RVR in larger scale combat, a true stealth mechanic will not be able to be balanced.
Basically stealth gives an insane 1v1 advantage thus the class has to have nerfed 1v1 capabilities if 1v1 is something that needs to be balanced. But stealth is not very useful in large groups and thus they need to have greater utility to be useful there.
Thus, games with stealth tend to have the class in a very overpowered or underpowered state because of the dynamics of how such a mechanic changes with larger groups.
I think short term stealth is balanceable (nothing more than 5-6 seconds). But most people are probably too used to the other styles from other games.
Comments
Falcuk: I really like the idea of utility arrows!
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Any ability that allows a stealther to abandon a fight is stupid in my opinion. You already have the option to choose what fight you engage in, why should you also have the option to leave it at will?
You can pick your fights, if you choose poorly, you die.
You already have stealth, if you get caught, you die.
And I think archers should be able to take on a role as stealther hunters. Maybe give them the ability track/find hotspots and set a pet on them or something. Rogues get skills to throw off a chase.
I hate the idea of stealth simply being a sanctuary for rogues to hang out in unopposed so long as they stay out of people's face. There should be a risk to it like anything else.
I mean Tanks could take on Archers for days by blocking almost everything thrown at them, mages killed tanks, assassins killed mages...rangers kinda did too and sometimes assassins and rogues.
Could give rangers a more specific role by letting them play the hunters and keep stealthers on their toes. It would be a hard line to toe trying to make it so stealth isn't negated, as that isn't my intention for it, but I think it would be awesome if implemented correctly.
I imagine coming up to an MG and being able to search for ambushers, while rogues do all they can to try to remain unseen.
Sorry for the ramble post, kept getting ideas as I typed and it's probably all incoherent anyway.
Popori: I realize that a lot of ppl feel that way, which is why I created this thread to discuss constructive alternatives.
It was not meant to be StealthRant#2173 lol. We have plenty of those, one of which is on the front page. (Though I DO enjoy a good rant... Don't get me wrong!)
While I did enjoy daoc stealth, I am willing to back a product that replaces it with other useful tools for rogues.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I wasn't trying to rant, more or less just believe that sometimes a system isn't broken, it just needs supporting systems to make it work.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Now we're gettin' somewhere. I am loath to reference WoW, but the "flare" arrow was a good idea. A "snare" arrow? sure. Volley/Salvo/AoE damage type arrow? yes. A stun/mezz/concussion arrow? NO!
For Archers: mobility, STATIONARY camouflage or stealth, and utility in the Bow line.
For Assassin types: mobile stealth NOT intended for "first strike" use, utility in their abilities for realm based stuff. I'm really liking the idea of a "sabotage" type ability to be used on siege equipment. And some ability that allows them to sneak into a keep/castle and expedite the process of breaching the gate.
I would still move away from the "assassin" theme. I like the idea of "infiltration." NOT an Infiltrator from DAoC (you were all scum!) but a class whose purpose is to literally infiltrate the enemy base.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
I had an OP Mage Assasin there, fun class but should not exist in any other game again, also played Scout, Thief and every other class lol
Overall I agree they had probably the best invisibility type stealth system. Far superrior to DAOC I think.
How about getting away from assasin stuff make a scout and a thief classes? Thief would be able to steal inventory items, run fast have semi decent combat ability, scout could pop thiefs, track(key feature), be able to use bow for debuffing but would be weaker 1on1 vs thief?
He has already stated somewhere he's not interested in people losing actual items on their character, that system is a horrible design and a lot of people will end up quitting especially if you have to work hard to get certain items via crafters.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
my thoughts on this
stealth classes hunter/scout/ranger these are wildernest servivers there skills at hiding and moving are in a wilderness and should be linked to this tarrain type in towns and villages and keeps it should be reduces massavly or negated totaly
assasins exsist and not as rare as some ppl think but think how do they earn there living they get payed by people with mony mostly to kill people with for verious resons most of there training would be getting in to places where there target is so i would like to see 2 types of stealth for this class hide in shadows they can stealth around built up areas any where there is a wall and shadows for them to hide in /sneek around but usless inopen areas( nothing to hide in)as the people paying them willmost likely be living in towns or cities most of there training would have been in this type of tarrain and a mimic skill where they can phisicaly disgise them selves as some one else to get close to there target a different type of stealth hiding in plain sight and being what people expect to see
also assasins should be squishy they shouldnt be wearing armour at all to heavy bulky and restrictive to clime up walls to that open window to get in side disgiusing your self as a servent servents dont wear armour
but they should still hit hard they know where to hit you where it hurts their job after all is killing people :-p
this would give you stealther classes in to use in both scouting and attacking towns and keeps but not stealthers that can stand in the middle of an open area with out cover or any where to hide and one shot any one who comes by they have to be a bit more sneeky than that
Tasaroca Troll ( I am not a buff bot damit) Shamy
Midgaurd /Prydwen / EU
I think there's a happy medium to be found between DAOC's old PermaStealth and WAR's limited melee stealth mechanics.
You could make permastealth fairly fragile and key it to enemy line-of-sight checks (tho' tracking the angle to an enemy is a bit more work for the server than just tracking proximity). If an enemy player or NPC faces the stealther, there should be a chance for stealth to break if their is a clear LOS (treat it like a ranged attack from a turret). If the stealther is good enough to keep out of LOS, he should be able to infiltrate whatever they want.
For ranged types, strengthen the stealth when they are motionless... simulating a hunter's ability to use camouflage... but perhaps weaken it when moving compared to an assassin-type.
Give the assassin types the WAR-style melee stealth rush ability as a very strong, short duration stealth that can take them past guards or let them close with their targets.
Any stealth that allows Stealthers that huge opening strike is going to be reviled. I think what gave Stealthers the perception of being OP'd was that each time you fought a Stealther, you were starting the fight with half health (and sometimes you were stunned, to boot.)
If the stealth is used ONLY to close distances, I'd support it.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Mostly because of rose colored glasses I suspect. That and forgetting the various problems of the game, at the time. But thats the nature of these things.
most of these ideas like to take a stealthers stealth away and give him some kind of radar ability or whatever are to realm fight orientated in my opinion
rvr isnt only about zerg vs zerg ... there has to be a place for 1on1, grp vs grp, small men and all the different play styles too
and stealthers are mostly solo classes so degenerating this solo class to a realm warfare class only is kinda unfair since you take most solo rvr players class option away
i personally liked perma stealth even though i never played a stealther because you allways had to pay attention as soon as you went into the rvr zone because there was allways the chance to get hit by a stealther ... sometimes even inside of a keep when you went to your grp as a caster
There is a difference between "solo players choosing to play Stealthers" and "Stealther players being forced to solo." The design of the Stealthers in DAoC forced them to solo or group (almost) exclusively with other Stealthers. That is just poor design.
I agree with you that there absolutely needs to be the options for solo play, small group play and large group play. But I think it will be very, very detrimental to the classes (and game) if classes are designed for only one those specific playstyles, to the exclusion of the others.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a class shouldn't have the ability to solo. I'm saying: giving a class "solo specific abilities" to the exclusion of group friendly abilities is just a bad idea and will ghetto-ize Stealthers once again.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Stealth tends to be too powerful in a small skirmish type situation and too weak in a large group enviroment.
If most of the game in RVR in larger scale combat, a true stealth mechanic will not be able to be balanced.
Basically stealth gives an insane 1v1 advantage thus the class has to have nerfed 1v1 capabilities if 1v1 is something that needs to be balanced. But stealth is not very useful in large groups and thus they need to have greater utility to be useful there.
Thus, games with stealth tend to have the class in a very overpowered or underpowered state because of the dynamics of how such a mechanic changes with larger groups.
I think short term stealth is balanceable (nothing more than 5-6 seconds). But most people are probably too used to the other styles from other games.