Has any of these games with leaps, knock backs, pulls have the three forms of cc mezz/snare/root working together? With mezz snare root you don't need all these other garbage abilities I could live with knockbacks as long as they are 30+ sec cool down and not aoe If they are aoe 200v200 battles are going to look silly imo
Originally posted by CluckingChicken @Odaman, sorry, no quote button on the mobile site for whatever reason. It was one of his first interviews about the game I believe. He mentioned that he wanted to be able to knock people off of cliffs. I'll try to find the interview when I get home.
Couple this with no collision detection and you have an easily exploited "I win" button. I'd be very leery of pulls and punts. I'm fine with a "charge" type ability used exclusively to close distances with melee toons.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
I do like all 3 because they add a tactical element to the game. In the end it just depends on how common they are and how they are implemented. I would prefer them all to be rare abilities. If every class has them then where is the ability to diferentiate yourself from others.
Knockback: I prefer this to a knockdown or stun. A knockdown or stun is simply much to powerful in most situations due to there not really being any mistakes to make. A knockback on the other you, you could knock an enemy to safety.
Pulls: for the most part they are far to powerful. A pull should be rare and have drawbacks associated with it such as that if roots you to the ground until the pull ends or if you land the pull on an enemy thats stronger that enemy pulls you instead. This way if you use a pull and miss there should be a 2-3 seconds of you standing still until the animation ends. Also, pulls should always be aimed and not I cast it it automatically hits.
Leaps: Usually the softer the class the higher the mobility. This I can deal with. If a class has full plate and can leap 30 feet while dishing decent damage and CC, I call foul. The leap or mobility ability better fit theme and better come at a price. Leaps are dual purpose abilities that allow you to chase or flee which can lead to far to much ease of play.
In all honesty I would rather have all three of these than the standard stun/kd.
I dont mind any of these as long as they have a good diminishing returns system.
I.e. if you get pulled, within the next 10 seconds any other form of CC, whether its a snare, knockback, another pull, etc, has its effectiveness reduced by 50%. If you get hit with a third that one is 90% reduced. Something along those lines.
Edit: Also, forgot to mention, these abilities should be on fairly long cooldowns, 60sec or longer each. They should be once per fight type of things, and no class should get more than 1. I.e. if you have knockback, you dont get a snare or a pull or mez.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
If you add leaps(WoW charge/intercept) then you need to add caster escape tools like Blink.. and then you are heading WoW direction. Very fun in small fights absolutely unplayable in large fights. So no, do not add any of those. With knockback you get the ping pong crap, as muhc fun as it is launching people from cliffs it works badly in big fights
I want nothing in this game that is at all reminiscent of SWTOR. Worst "MMO" I've ever played. I put brackets around MMO because it was basically a single player game with some arenas and terrible PVP design thrown in.
The way the CC was distributed and designed in WAR was perfect. although WAR was a fail due to numerous other reason we have to admit their Tank class in pvp was pure Genius.
Originally posted by sweetdigs I want nothing in this game that is at all reminiscent of SWTOR. Worst "MMO" I've ever played. I put brackets around MMO because it was basically a single player game with some arenas and terrible PVP design thrown in.
Originally posted by Ringside The way the CC was distributed and designed in WAR was perfect. although WAR was a fail due to numerous other reason we have to admit their Tank class in pvp was pure Genius.
@sweetdigs yet you want collision detection. You must have a way to move players if they're blocking you. Just an example of what I said earlier, people want one thing and don't think 2 steps ahead to what else that brings into the game.
@Ringside We'll have to agree to disagree because crippling strikes and long range guard were broken mechanics. I don't think loading tanks down with multiple damage reduction abilities is the way to go. The cc on tanks was a bit much, but you could attribute that to the beast of short duration cc as a whole.... long durations with very long immunities just seems to flow better than many different short duration ccs. Anyway, tanks are another story so I won't derail the thread anymore on that
Originally posted by sweetdigs I want nothing in this game that is at all reminiscent of SWTOR. Worst "MMO" I've ever played. I put brackets around MMO because it was basically a single player game with some arenas and terrible PVP design thrown in.
Originally posted by Ringside The way the CC was distributed and designed in WAR was perfect. although WAR was a fail due to numerous other reason we have to admit their Tank class in pvp was pure Genius.
@sweetdigs yet you want collision detection. You must have a way to move players if they're blocking you. Just an example of what I said earlier, people want one thing and don't think 2 steps ahead to what else that brings into the game.
Collision detection was in games long before SWTOR. Yes, I want collision detection. I do not want any of the PVP gameplay aspects of SWTOR - it was terribly designed and became a stun/freeze/root fest where CC ruled the day and everbody spend 50% of the battle CC'd in some way.
Originally posted by meddyck Hell no to pulls. Having enemies pull you into a death trap or gangbang is BS. I can live with a few knockbacks as long as they don't turn RvR into a game of pinball. Leaps are fine.
QFT.
I don't mind knockdowns, short duration shield stuns, or even knockbacks... but pulls weren't terribly fun.
- Knockdowns should be fine, if properly balanced and appropriate immunity.
- Pulls are a no in my book. Never liked them.
- Leaps can be good if implemented properly, but I am reluctant to seeing them in-game. Not a definite no though.
My feeling is that anytime you start talking about "immunity," you're going down the wrong path. Just give me a magic resist ability that I can wear gear to boost, get spells to boost, etc. Then make spells not OP to the point that they ruin the fun of the game (e.g. SWTOR-like PVP abilities). CC should be minimalistic, because even in minimal forms it can have a drastic impact on battles.
I wouldn't be opposed to it if it was done realistically. So yeah, a knockback attack that forces the target back a few feet... I'm okay with that, and it's something you should be able to do. If someone is climbing up a castle wall, just knock him back. If it's like that Dark Fall video where the Fire Mage has six attacks and five of them send people jumping around like ping pong balls, then I'm not so interested about that.
- Knockdowns should be fine, if properly balanced and appropriate immunity.
- Pulls are a no in my book. Never liked them.
- Leaps can be good if implemented properly, but I am reluctant to seeing them in-game. Not a definite no though.
My feeling is that anytime you start talking about "immunity," you're going down the wrong path. Just give me a magic resist ability that I can wear gear to boost, get spells to boost, etc. Then make spells not OP to the point that they ruin the fun of the game (e.g. SWTOR-like PVP abilities). CC should be minimalistic, because even in minimal forms it can have a drastic impact on battles.
To me, knockdown is just a more visual version of stun, and without stun immunity people end up getting locked down or pinballed all over the place.
Personally, I'd preferred to have no CC in-game since I hate losing control of my character's actions, but that is not likely to happen. The key is therefore to find the happy medium where people can fight, but it is not a simple numbers game where the side with the most players win every time.
As for the resist abilities, I hope they are implemented.
Pulls, knock backs, and leaping, etc to me ar ea lot more fun, both look and context wise, then the usual trend of CC n mmo's, with long duration stuns/cc's and other things usually found in many mmo's.
Not to mention that leaps, pull, knock backs, and other things can have a lot more of a strategic use depending on where/when you use them.
Pulls = no. I hate feeling like a fish out in the ocean.
leaps = no. if i want to play soccer, i'd be a player, not the ball.
knock backs = ....5 feet max. kinda like a stun with some minimal movement involved.
i'd still prefer to be mezzed for 45 seconds than to fly back or being pulled 50 feet away. imo those kinds of CC are more suitable for fps like game than mmorpgs.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
If anyone here is voting no to knockbacks, pulls, leaps, etc but are for CC , can you explain why? I don't get why you'd vote no to having things which can add more to the combat, both mechanically and visually, instead of sticking with old school cc types.
I mean being able to knock someone back at the right moment, when you are near a dangerous cliff or some other enviornmental obstacle, that's priceless , being able to leap over things that can help your strategy in combat, such as perhaps spells or aoe attacks, knowing when/where to leap could add to certain classes and flavors.
HAving for example, one warrior, say Arthurian, that focuses more on knockbacks with their shields, and pulls/trips in close quarters. Then having another class, say for Hib, that instead of that kind of wariror,t hey are more nimble, they leap around, can bypass certain other realm "tank" abilities by doing so, and instead can ofcus people in close quarters through other means that play on thair more nimble role type unlike the Arthrian style warriors.
I mean to me, the idea of having knockbacks, pulls, leaping and other things, are just an "evolution" of visually showing the CC elements in a more visceral combat sort of way that can be done more these days.
When I get knocked back in a game, I'd rather see someone use an ability, HIT me with their shield or weapon and do it, then to just push a hotkey and be "stunned" for x time, it's just visually more appeal ing and depending on the animations, how combat works, it can add mor estrategy to it.
If anyone here is voting no to knockbacks, pulls, leaps, etc but are for CC , can you explain why? I don't get why you'd vote no to having things which can add more to the combat, both mechanically and visually, instead of sticking with old school cc types.
I mean being able to knock someone back at the right moment, when you are near a dangerous cliff or some other enviornmental obstacle, that's priceless , being able to leap over things that can help your strategy in combat, such as perhaps spells or aoe attacks, knowing when/where to leap could add to certain classes and flavors.
HAving for example, one warrior, say Arthurian, that focuses more on knockbacks with their shields, and pulls/trips in close quarters. Then having another class, say for Hib, that instead of that kind of wariror,t hey are more nimble, they leap around, can bypass certain other realm "tank" abilities by doing so, and instead can ofcus people in close quarters through other means that play on thair more nimble role type unlike the Arthrian style warriors.
I mean to me, the idea of having knockbacks, pulls, leaping and other things, are just an "evolution" of visually showing the CC elements in a more visceral combat sort of way that can be done more these days.
When I get knocked back in a game, I'd rather see someone use an ability, HIT me with their shield or weapon and do it, then to just push a hotkey and be "stunned" for x time, it's just visually more appeal ing and depending on the animations, how combat works, it can add mor estrategy to it.
Many of us did explain why.
but mostly, its a question of preferences.
i dont think the type of cc you seem to prefer add more strategy, but different strategy.
hitting you with a shield is also pressing a hotkey, both (i.e. for tanks) uses their shield to stun/knockback for x time. and as to when you say its more visually appealing, to me its visually annoying lol. As for casters, i think a stun, mezz snare or roots is more suited than pulling people 40 feet from you, or having them flying all over.
But then again, its a matter of preferences...
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
If anyone here is voting no to knockbacks, pulls, leaps, etc but are for CC , can you explain why? I don't get why you'd vote no to having things which can add more to the combat, both mechanically and visually, instead of sticking with old school cc types.
I mean being able to knock someone back at the right moment, when you are near a dangerous cliff or some other enviornmental obstacle, that's priceless , being able to leap over things that can help your strategy in combat, such as perhaps spells or aoe attacks, knowing when/where to leap could add to certain classes and flavors.
HAving for example, one warrior, say Arthurian, that focuses more on knockbacks with their shields, and pulls/trips in close quarters. Then having another class, say for Hib, that instead of that kind of wariror,t hey are more nimble, they leap around, can bypass certain other realm "tank" abilities by doing so, and instead can ofcus people in close quarters through other means that play on thair more nimble role type unlike the Arthrian style warriors.
I mean to me, the idea of having knockbacks, pulls, leaping and other things, are just an "evolution" of visually showing the CC elements in a more visceral combat sort of way that can be done more these days.
When I get knocked back in a game, I'd rather see someone use an ability, HIT me with their shield or weapon and do it, then to just push a hotkey and be "stunned" for x time, it's just visually more appeal ing and depending on the animations, how combat works, it can add mor estrategy to it.
Many of us did explain why.
but mostly, its a question of preferences.
i dont think the type of cc you seem to prefer add more strategy, but different strategy.
hitting you with a shield is also pressing a hotkey, both (i.e. for tanks) uses their shield to stun/knockback for x time. and as to when you say its more visually appealing, to me its visually annoying lol. As for casters, i think a stun, mezz snare or roots is more suited than pulling people 40 feet from you, or having them flying all over.
But then again, its a matter of preferences...
Yes Mechanically they are similar, but you find a tank,a ctually having to hit you with his shield to knock you back a few feet isn't as visually pleasing as just having some range graphica nd tiihen you becoming "stunned" for x time? It's the context of the action, you see WHY you get knocked back,w hat caused it, etc, it just looks more in-line with the action going on.
As far as casters go, you see to me, I'd like to see things more out of hte box for their CC.
Having a mage that could say, throw a fireball and have it actually AOE knockback applied, in a radius (so it knocks people away from the center of the fireball and where it lands).
This could be used in MANY varied ways, that you simply don't get in other games. From using it to strategically knock someone off a cliff/higher terrain, to using it to create distance (if the knockback could apply to youreself or friendles).
Or imagine aii "tether" type of ability where you can throw out a tether, if you use it on an enemy, you can then chooes another space (within x distance of course) to send that player there, so bascially it works similar to a type of teleport. For friendlies if you hit them with it, they have the ability to choose to port to you (so you can help someoen get out of a sticky situation, etc).
Perhaps I've been playing League of Legends too much, but there's just a lot more "variety" of cc tactics out here then your traditional stun/mez/roots that I'd like to see in the game, something more varied, visceral and tactical about being able to do certain things.
Don't get me wrong, I expect CU will have your traditonal stuns/roots and things, but I'd just like tos ee knockbacks, and things that I personally find more visually apealing for combat.
Yes Mechanically they are similar, but you find a tank,a ctually having to hit you with his shield to knock you back a few feet isn't as visually pleasing as just having some range graphica nd tiihen you becoming "stunned" for x time? It's the context of the action, you see WHY you get knocked back,w hat caused it, etc, it just looks more in-line with the action going on.
As far as casters go, you see to me, I'd like to see things more out of hte box for their CC.
Having a mage that could say, throw a fireball and have it actually AOE knockback applied, in a radius (so it knocks people away from the center of the fireball and where it lands).
This could be used in MANY varied ways, that you simply don't get in other games. From using it to strategically knock someone off a cliff/higher terrain, to using it to create distance (if the knockback could apply to youreself or friendles).
Or imagine aii "tether" type of ability where you can throw out a tether, if you use it on an enemy, you can then chooes another space (within x distance of course) to send that player there, so bascially it works similar to a type of teleport. For friendlies if you hit them with it, they have the ability to choose to port to you (so you can help someoen get out of a sticky situation, etc).
Perhaps I've been playing League of Legends too much, but there's just a lot more "variety" of cc tactics out here then your traditional stun/mez/roots that I'd like to see in the game, something more varied, visceral and tactical about being able to do certain things.
Don't get me wrong, I expect CU will have your traditonal stuns/roots and things, but I'd just like tos ee knockbacks, and things that I personally find more visually apealing for combat.
Did you ever play Warhammer Online? I dunno if it's still like it because I haven't played end game since 2009, but AoE knockback, pulls/tethers, and everything that is bad is in that game. It isn't fun and was one of the biggest complaints that caused a LOT of peope to quit playing.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
Comments
With mezz snare root you don't need all these other garbage abilities
I could live with knockbacks as long as they are 30+ sec cool down and not aoe
If they are aoe 200v200 battles are going to look silly imo
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Couple this with no collision detection and you have an easily exploited "I win" button. I'd be very leery of pulls and punts. I'm fine with a "charge" type ability used exclusively to close distances with melee toons.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
I do like all 3 because they add a tactical element to the game. In the end it just depends on how common they are and how they are implemented. I would prefer them all to be rare abilities. If every class has them then where is the ability to diferentiate yourself from others.
Knockback: I prefer this to a knockdown or stun. A knockdown or stun is simply much to powerful in most situations due to there not really being any mistakes to make. A knockback on the other you, you could knock an enemy to safety.
Pulls: for the most part they are far to powerful. A pull should be rare and have drawbacks associated with it such as that if roots you to the ground until the pull ends or if you land the pull on an enemy thats stronger that enemy pulls you instead. This way if you use a pull and miss there should be a 2-3 seconds of you standing still until the animation ends. Also, pulls should always be aimed and not I cast it it automatically hits.
Leaps: Usually the softer the class the higher the mobility. This I can deal with. If a class has full plate and can leap 30 feet while dishing decent damage and CC, I call foul. The leap or mobility ability better fit theme and better come at a price. Leaps are dual purpose abilities that allow you to chase or flee which can lead to far to much ease of play.
In all honesty I would rather have all three of these than the standard stun/kd.
I dont mind any of these as long as they have a good diminishing returns system.
I.e. if you get pulled, within the next 10 seconds any other form of CC, whether its a snare, knockback, another pull, etc, has its effectiveness reduced by 50%. If you get hit with a third that one is 90% reduced. Something along those lines.
Edit: Also, forgot to mention, these abilities should be on fairly long cooldowns, 60sec or longer each. They should be once per fight type of things, and no class should get more than 1. I.e. if you have knockback, you dont get a snare or a pull or mez.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Sword and board tanks or a pure cc specialist fine
Nukers no
@sweetdigs yet you want collision detection. You must have a way to move players if they're blocking you. Just an example of what I said earlier, people want one thing and don't think 2 steps ahead to what else that brings into the game.
@Ringside We'll have to agree to disagree because crippling strikes and long range guard were broken mechanics. I don't think loading tanks down with multiple damage reduction abilities is the way to go. The cc on tanks was a bit much, but you could attribute that to the beast of short duration cc as a whole.... long durations with very long immunities just seems to flow better than many different short duration ccs. Anyway, tanks are another story so I won't derail the thread anymore on that
Your caster escape skills are OTHER TANKS.
Don't make the game balanced 1vs1, encourage team play. The first way is wow / rift etc.. the second way is daoc / planetside etc..
Collision detection was in games long before SWTOR. Yes, I want collision detection. I do not want any of the PVP gameplay aspects of SWTOR - it was terribly designed and became a stun/freeze/root fest where CC ruled the day and everbody spend 50% of the battle CC'd in some way.
QFT.
I don't mind knockdowns, short duration shield stuns, or even knockbacks... but pulls weren't terribly fun.
- Knockdowns should be fine, if properly balanced and appropriate immunity.
- Pulls are a no in my book. Never liked them.
- Leaps can be good if implemented properly, but I am reluctant to seeing them in-game. Not a definite no though.
My feeling is that anytime you start talking about "immunity," you're going down the wrong path. Just give me a magic resist ability that I can wear gear to boost, get spells to boost, etc. Then make spells not OP to the point that they ruin the fun of the game (e.g. SWTOR-like PVP abilities). CC should be minimalistic, because even in minimal forms it can have a drastic impact on battles.
To me, knockdown is just a more visual version of stun, and without stun immunity people end up getting locked down or pinballed all over the place.
Personally, I'd preferred to have no CC in-game since I hate losing control of my character's actions, but that is not likely to happen. The key is therefore to find the happy medium where people can fight, but it is not a simple numbers game where the side with the most players win every time.
As for the resist abilities, I hope they are implemented.
Depends on how its all implemented.
If it was me I'd leave it for seige and longer cds.
Pulls, knock backs, and leaping, etc to me ar ea lot more fun, both look and context wise, then the usual trend of CC n mmo's, with long duration stuns/cc's and other things usually found in many mmo's.
Not to mention that leaps, pull, knock backs, and other things can have a lot more of a strategic use depending on where/when you use them.
Pulls = no. I hate feeling like a fish out in the ocean.
leaps = no. if i want to play soccer, i'd be a player, not the ball.
knock backs = ....5 feet max. kinda like a stun with some minimal movement involved.
i'd still prefer to be mezzed for 45 seconds than to fly back or being pulled 50 feet away. imo those kinds of CC are more suitable for fps like game than mmorpgs.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
If anyone here is voting no to knockbacks, pulls, leaps, etc but are for CC , can you explain why? I don't get why you'd vote no to having things which can add more to the combat, both mechanically and visually, instead of sticking with old school cc types.
I mean being able to knock someone back at the right moment, when you are near a dangerous cliff or some other enviornmental obstacle, that's priceless , being able to leap over things that can help your strategy in combat, such as perhaps spells or aoe attacks, knowing when/where to leap could add to certain classes and flavors.
HAving for example, one warrior, say Arthurian, that focuses more on knockbacks with their shields, and pulls/trips in close quarters. Then having another class, say for Hib, that instead of that kind of wariror,t hey are more nimble, they leap around, can bypass certain other realm "tank" abilities by doing so, and instead can ofcus people in close quarters through other means that play on thair more nimble role type unlike the Arthrian style warriors.
I mean to me, the idea of having knockbacks, pulls, leaping and other things, are just an "evolution" of visually showing the CC elements in a more visceral combat sort of way that can be done more these days.
When I get knocked back in a game, I'd rather see someone use an ability, HIT me with their shield or weapon and do it, then to just push a hotkey and be "stunned" for x time, it's just visually more appeal ing and depending on the animations, how combat works, it can add mor estrategy to it.
Many of us did explain why.
but mostly, its a question of preferences.
i dont think the type of cc you seem to prefer add more strategy, but different strategy.
hitting you with a shield is also pressing a hotkey, both (i.e. for tanks) uses their shield to stun/knockback for x time. and as to when you say its more visually appealing, to me its visually annoying lol. As for casters, i think a stun, mezz snare or roots is more suited than pulling people 40 feet from you, or having them flying all over.
But then again, its a matter of preferences...
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
Yes Mechanically they are similar, but you find a tank,a ctually having to hit you with his shield to knock you back a few feet isn't as visually pleasing as just having some range graphica nd tiihen you becoming "stunned" for x time? It's the context of the action, you see WHY you get knocked back,w hat caused it, etc, it just looks more in-line with the action going on.
As far as casters go, you see to me, I'd like to see things more out of hte box for their CC.
Having a mage that could say, throw a fireball and have it actually AOE knockback applied, in a radius (so it knocks people away from the center of the fireball and where it lands).
This could be used in MANY varied ways, that you simply don't get in other games. From using it to strategically knock someone off a cliff/higher terrain, to using it to create distance (if the knockback could apply to youreself or friendles).
Or imagine aii "tether" type of ability where you can throw out a tether, if you use it on an enemy, you can then chooes another space (within x distance of course) to send that player there, so bascially it works similar to a type of teleport. For friendlies if you hit them with it, they have the ability to choose to port to you (so you can help someoen get out of a sticky situation, etc).
Perhaps I've been playing League of Legends too much, but there's just a lot more "variety" of cc tactics out here then your traditional stun/mez/roots that I'd like to see in the game, something more varied, visceral and tactical about being able to do certain things.
Don't get me wrong, I expect CU will have your traditonal stuns/roots and things, but I'd just like tos ee knockbacks, and things that I personally find more visually apealing for combat.
Did you ever play Warhammer Online? I dunno if it's still like it because I haven't played end game since 2009, but AoE knockback, pulls/tethers, and everything that is bad is in that game. It isn't fun and was one of the biggest complaints that caused a LOT of peope to quit playing.