Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
PVP in MMO's today, where did it all go wrong?
falcuk
Member UncommonPosts: 42
Would like to hear peoples thoughts on why PVP has never really evolved in MMO's since DAOC set the bar so high, none have really come close and definitely nothing has bettered it.
Why does PVP seem to have gone backwards? was it to capture the FPS want-it-now crowd?
I simply am at a loss for words when i think of the RVR and sieges from DAOC, and how many years ago they were implemented, and then i look at todays current offerings and just feel most of the games completely missed the point or tried to implement similar features but failed so badly.
I remember playing EQ1 and not really being into PVP as it was a 99% PVE game, then a friend showed me DAOC, i gave it a whirl, PVE'ing then he said i was missing the point of the game, showed me a BG and i was forever hooked after that, i couldnt wait to get to 50 to experience the real RVR.
That was many years ago, since then i kinda look with disdain upon the PVP offerings of most games now, so many could have been great but whether it was just lazy devs or the moneymen at the top stating PVP wasnt for their game im not sure.
why do you guys think PVP has never really evolved?
Comments
I think a large combination of things. Firstly big name game don't really go one way or the other any more. Most mainstream games go for PvE with PvP mixed in. This attracts a certain PvE crowd that has different desires than a mostly PvP player. I personally enjoyed DAoC's PvE but I have always considered myself more of a PvP player. Now that games keep both aspects so tightly intertwined it's hard to draw a clear line on what each group of players wants out of it. Also I think that a lot of people can't handle PvP maturely and are always complaing about balance, nerfs, overpowered, etc. This puts off game developers into thinking that the PvP crowd isn't necessary as important as the PvE content.
DAoC had some truly amazing PvP and I still look back fondly on the BG's and end game PvP. Even Archage was fun for a little while until the shallowness of the overall game snuck its way out. Realm vs Realm and siege based PvP is simply fun, you feel really inspired to be a part of your realm community and I haven't had another experience like it since DAoC. Hopefully gamers are getting fed up with the low quality trash a lot of companies are putting out these days and we can go back to our roots of being a strong gaming community who got the quality we deserved, not just a company seeing a few dollar signs around our heads.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Many reasons imho.
1 - WoW. That game was the 1st big hit in the 21st century, mmorpgwise. Since then, basically all the big companies have tried to make something similar. so if you try to copy....(excuse me for the WoW fans) crap, most likely crap is what you'll end up with offering
2- DAoC was ahead of its time PvPwise, i'm pretty sure that if DAoC came out basically at same time as WoW, it would have had bigger success than it did ( not saying it woulda have sold more than WoW, but woulda been more popular) (and lets keep NF out of the subject, witch was a reason that it started going wrong)
3 - There's more PvEers out there than there's PvPers. so companies tend to aim for the mass. DAoC was a Niche game in a way, so will be CU, but the people that will give more love to PvP oriented games will be more truthful to their favorite game for a long long time, its simply not the same type of players.
4 - games have been following the same kind of "pattern" as the movie industry. lots of special effect, visually awesome, but lots of them lack a good story. For this part, i think we're slowly getting out of that pattern. Seeing the hype on games like CU, Shourds of the avatar (basically the next new UO) and ESO, and some other games made by smaller studios as well, my hopes are finally getting up again.
5 - its a generation thing, and this generation of teenagers is mostly (NOT ALL OF THEM, really no discrimination here) a generation that wants everything fast, with as less "work for it" as possible. once again, WoW got that, with basically a trail of crumbs that guide from the "YOU ARE HERE" to the "TREASURE IS HERE"
And finally
6 - Big studios. They aim for the money, pure and simple, so, they offer lots of "bling bling", nice visual effects, makes their game quite easy for the mass that wants easy games, leaving the more ..."serious" or "mature" players behind.
And luckily for us, some people like MJ are "serious" gamers too, so they ll do their very damn best to make a game for those of us seeking somethnig more than icing on a cake.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
for what its worth im enjoying planetside 2
IF
you have a decent outfit, with people that know what they are doing, it has some of the strategy, teamwork and tactics of the older MMOs. Of course the game is also full of solo runners thinking they are playing Battlefield or something, but if your in an outfit of ex planetside 1 / daoc / shadowbane people like me, the game really opens up with team work and different approaches to owning people. Its not a simple case of bigggest zerg wins, certainly more teamwork involved than GW2 and WAR.
EVE is still decent pvp of course.
I hear good things about the age of wushu beta too.
on point 2. daoc wasnt a pure PVP mmo. For me its greatest strength was it catered to everyone, pvpers, pveers and people who like both (it also did a decent job for crafters too)
thanks to EQ/wow though your hardcore PVEers like to kick up a stink if they dont get ALL the best toys in shop.
on point 6 you are correct too. Its no coincidence the greatest 2 mmos were both made by indie studios - daco and eve.
I agree on what you say for point 2, but what i meant to say is that so far it still offered the best PvP, nothing equaled that after 10 years of mmos.
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
I did some PvP in UO, it was pretty much crap.
I tried a PvP server in EQ and did some naked mage ganking, boring after a few nights.
I did some RvR in DAOC, but Mythic catered too much to the nerf-whiners on the forums. I quit playing MMO games for a couple years after that.
I started WOW when Burning Crusade came out. Once I got to Level 70, I tried the PVP options. It was the best PVP I've played in any MMO. I don't play it anymore, but I haven't seen the level of challenge and competition since then (in an MMO).
So, as was previously mentioned, the "battleground" and "arena" approach probably does appeal more to the FPS gamers.
One thing that really will be interesting to watch if the KS funds, is whether people will go for this type of game now. Even if it's funded, once the actual game is running and the types of systems and mechanics that have been mentioned are implemented, it will be fascinating to see how people respond to it. A lot of players say they want this or that, but will they really? Do people want to spend 10 minutes running to a batlle? Spend 30 minutes roaming a countryside looking for a fight? Will they put up with inexperienced players who screw up a crowd control and get the group killed? Will players take a few months to really get good at a character, learning nuances or individual play styles?
I hope so, but only time will tell. Players have been conditioned to a certain extent to have things at their fingertips. This game is proposing to take some, if not a good chunk of them, away. And that should place the emphasis on the realm and not the player. Even in DAoC, as the RP system matured and GG's emerged, the RP became more and more important and pretty much overshadowed realm status.
In the early days, everyone went to Relic Raids and defenses, as a realm. The whole realm interacted in RvR Chat Group. But eventually, "better" players had their own premades and voice chats and somewhat segregated themselves from the general populace.
PvE games can, for the most part, allow everyone to play as a single player or small group game. The raid content is so high, casual players can spend months leveling up to it, playing medium-high content, and making alts. And even still, a group can run a raid, and another group can just run it again tomorrow or next week. Everyone is esentially playing their own game. But PvP and more importantly, RvR games, MUST have realmwide interaction with the realm status as top priority.
So that's my answer: The most important thing is MMO's became non-social. Everyone still logs on, but it's for the individual to get the star on his or her forhead, not to play a game with a bunch of other people.
Um, you'd be "probably" wrong. I'm an avid Quake player, which is arguably one of the best, most talent/skill based, fps series ever made and grinding BGs and Arenas is exactly what is WRONG with MMORPG's today. The plague of WoW creating instance based, repetitive and grindable PvP was probably what killed legit open world PvP enjoyment. I definitely remember the fun I had in Vanilla WoW when people killed because it was fun. There wasn't any PvP gear, everyone was almost on the same level... it was a blast. Honor points, BGs and then eventually Arenas ruined any fun factor I had with WoW. Haven't played it since TBC because of them.
What I truly hope for is that CU caters to not only the Realm vs Realm, or even the legendary 8v8's that roamed the plains in DAoC, but for solo or duo PvPers. Simple way would be to reward solo players more for fighting on their own, and less if you're in bigger groups. This would at least create a nice disparity of groups around the realm instead of just zerg vs zerg vs zerg vs zerg.
The new games have lost character progression, there is no point in playing when what little character progression that can be achieved in these new games is achieved by all. You end up with mirrors of each other everywhere till the next expansion. I remember looking that the server ranks in daoc and seeing some very high RR people. They dedicated time to get those realm abilities which made their character strong. This is what really seperated it from the rest for me. Eveyone was different because of this.
In todays games they try to make us pvp for new armor and weapons which everyone ends up getting. They make us do the same ( insert random bg here) over and over and over. They want everyone to be the same so it is easier to balance. Then GW2 introduces what seemed to be a promising 3 faction pvp, but with no character progression it just ended up being a good try. I played for a few weeks and felt no need to stick with my character. Now they are trying to add progression with increased ranks of siege damage or something, worthless. Rift gave a valiant try with planar attunement which I liked, it's just too bad the pvp for that game was designed poorly. Currently planetside 2 is the best pvp game out imo but the progression is also terrible. I barely play it but when I need something to do I give it an hour or so.
you are all saying so much for a two word answer.
Instant Gratification.
Exactly the words I was searching for.
1) instanced arenas / BGs (boring)
2) no meaningful PvP progression (gear grinds are boring)
3) CC system catered to casual players
4) low skill cap
5) all around bad combat systems (GCDs, similar classes)
6) no realm pride
DAoC was NOT a PVP-only game. I did so much PVE in there it wasn't funny, especially when you consider that most of us have forgotten how long the grind used to be. I remember standing at the top of a ramp and pulling one mob after another for an entire week when I got home from work just for my last two levels... hell it might have been my last ONE level now that I think about it! I was so determined to get to the RVR that I just pulled and pulled and pulled. Aside from that there were a lot of fun runs through DF and a few other dungeons I have forgotten the names of. That is not even mentioning all of the ToA raids you had to do to gear up for RVR.
RVR was the primary endgame though and since I left DAoC I have never found the same level of satisfaction with PVP because it is always something thrown on a PVE game as an afterthought and lacks the level of purpose and complexity that DAoC offered. You can only do BGs for so long before you realize you are just doing the same crap without purpose. You aren't capturing keeps for bonuses, getting control of an awesome dungeon, planting your guild flag on something you captured and defending it so the enemy knows your guild is badass, capturing relics... or anything. That is why it isn't satisfying. It lacks purpose.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
yeah that sucks too.
but its a by product of the "raiders must have the best toys" approach made popular by eq and wow.
your wow clone games get in this endless destructive cycle
1 release new raid
2 raid must have wtfpwn gear to push people into grinding the hell out of it
3 raiders start owning dedicated pvpers
4 pvpers whine
5 new pvp set comes out
6 pvp decends into a baby eating competition, where fresh max level players must grind months of constant deaths before they can compete.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
you have to differentiate between open world in a sand box and open world in a themepark.
theres a world of difference between EVE where economy and politics drives pvp and WOW flip a switch and PVP magically happens servers.
With a sandbox theres the whole metagame of building contacts, only equiping what you can afford to loose for your current enterprise, although conversly the consequences for failure might be soo much its worth equiping a very expensive ship (e.g. you loose a rich manufacturing area for your corp)
The daoc / planetside style approach is the best way to do pvp in a themepark game though, hands down.
Yeh exactly. It's just an on going cycle. Any game that has those stats I just stop playing which is too bad. I really do like PVP in WoW and SWTOR but I refuse becuase they are both centered around raid PVE and the tiers of PVE and PVP gear that go with it. I also refuse to raid becuase I would rather go up against living players than A.I. any day.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
play PS2 - its free, get a good outfit though, you need an outfit to have fun.
Yeh I need to go back to that game. I played a whole bunch when it launched but got burned out. I actually have more hours on PS1 than probably all of the other mmo's I have played since 2001 combined. I never played DAOC, but PS1 is my measuring stick on good massive three-way faction warfare. PS2 comes close and I need to load it up again, but PS1 will always have that special place in my heart *tear*
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
UO PvP was crap? You must've not been proficient at it. It required an understanding of swing and casting delays to be good at it. However, once you got the hang of it, it was quite fun. I had good times as a PK in that game.
Anyways, one of the problems is that I've yet to see developers design the game with the PvP in mind first, then shape PvE content around it. In other words, they focus on PvE first, and then when they start tackling PvP they run into issues with class balance and what not.
Another problem I found is that addition of a PvP and a PvE stat, i.e. resilience, hit rating, and the like. Before, you could obtain gear either through PvP or PvE. The gear was interchangeable, just different methods of obtaining it. However, I'm guessing because they wanted to increase time spent farming out gear, they forcibly drew a clear line between PvE and PvP gear. For example PvE gear having hit rating, and PvP gear lacking it. Or PvP gear having resilience and PvE gear lacking it. There was also the issue that raiders generally had better gear compared to the PvP sets.
Honestly, I think if developers worried about class balance from a PvP perspective first then shaped PvE content around it, got rid of the line between PvP and PvE gear, and then put the gear on equal grounding, things would be in better shape.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron
Because it didnt set the bar so high, it set it LOW.
PvP in DaoC was the first game to provide carrot on a stick PvP. It placed it in a nice safe little area away from everything else which led directly to battlemaps in other games. The buffs and rewards provided in DaoC led to the ladder/ranking systems in games today and since DaoC was gear based, it created the PvE for PvP gear crap we have today. It also created the zerg fest we have today as well along with the take the easy road mentality of taking an objective and then leaving it for the next without defending...just take take take for quick gain, gain made meaningless outside of the cheap carrot rewards they brought.
DaoC was the cause of todays problems because before DaoC, people PvPed for fun and the challenge. And no, I dont expect you to get it because if you think DaoC had great PvP, you had no real PvP experience before it. Freaking themepark PvP...gawd damn.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Exactly.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!