daoc style after they put in the balancing factors like pbae demezz on tanks. You're not getting daoc's cc like it was at the start, even I know that's broken.... chain stun, spam amnesia... all products of a system that wasn't tested enough and you'll probably never see it again.
this whole discussion isnt realy about the duration of the cc (ok maybe for stun it is but not for the rest) ... its about the abilitys to break/counter cc
its ok to have a 5min ae mezz if there are like thousands of demezzes/purges because you get punished for throwing everything you got within the first few situations happening even though you dont need to do that ...
but having this 5 min mezz wihtout a single demezz is op
i liked the new age daoc's cc system where a mezz on a full resi buffed caster lasted like 30-40 sec while a det5 stoicism full resi buffed tank (means 50% less duration in first tier via resis then 55%(det)+25%(stoi) via ras in sec tier and maybe even less via sec tier resis) stood like 4 secs in a max lvl single target mezz(base dura something about 1 min) and a 10 sec stun wasnt more than a lag
plus you always had the possibility to spec purge (5-15 min timer depending how high you specced it +off tanks had also charge wich gave em cc in invulnerability+movement speed for 15 secs every 30 secs) and there were demezzes by certain classes and some artes blocking cc's 1 time so you always had the posibility to break out of a cc if there was the need to
so only if your demzzer was rupted/cced your purge timer was down and you werent a tank you stood in cc for 30 sec and this barely happened more than 1 time per evening and with a good grp it never happened ... and in my opinion this is a good made cc system wich punishes you for being bad but rewards you if your good with rupting the enemy/being good
After talking to some of my old friends that still play daoc they tell my, cc hardly last more then afew secs in today RvR. So what time frame are most of you thinking about when you talk about daoc style seeing as it what 12 years old now?
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
With full interruption system you have to have many ways to CC otherwise casters wouldn't be able to cast at all. What's more in daoc nowdays with det 5, stoicism etc. CC doesn't last long.
Originally posted by Raefar After talking to some of my old friends that still play daoc they tell my, cc hardly last more then afew secs in today RvR. So what time frame are most of you thinking about when you talk about daoc style seeing as it what 12 years old now?
I'm thinking about classic DAoC (or as it is on Uthgard atm), so much longer lasting CC than modern DAoC.
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
Stun-locking doesn't exist in DAoC. Are you sure you aren't confused with another game (WoW perhaps)?
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
Stun-locking doesn't exist in DAoC. Are you sure you aren't confused with another game (WoW perhaps)?
Without purge up you can be out of a fight, at least long ago in DAOC with long timed CC's.
Perhaps stun wasn't the right word for it, thought hat does exist in a lot of newer mmorpgs as well.
CC is generally the "bane" of mele eplayers, and one of the hardest was to "balance" combat between melee players and range.
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
Stun-locking doesn't exist in DAoC. Are you sure you aren't confused with another game (WoW perhaps)?
Without purge up you can be out of a fight, at least long ago in DAOC with long timed CC's.
Perhaps stun wasn't the right word for it, thought hat does exist in a lot of newer mmorpgs as well.
CC is generally the "bane" of mele eplayers, and one of the hardest was to "balance" combat between melee players and range.
CC in nowdays in daoc is better. You should look into how it looks now. It's totally not bane for melee character. I would say casters have hard time.
Honestly when you first look at it DAoC seemed to have quite a bit of heavy and mass CC, but honestly as someone else said it really worked with everything put together in battle. I loved how unique the class in DAoC were and I also enjoy giving players the opportunity to specialize in CC if that's what they enjoy. The long term and aoe mezzes were pretty aggitating when they happened to you but I didn't ever get the feeling that they were too overpowered.
Just slightly off topic I LOVED the Mid Healer class. A mix of healing and CC? Best class I've ever played!
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
For my part i think it is part of a good mmorpg. everyone can be CCed, not just melee.
But casters can be silenced, interrupted, shot at (therefore also interrupted), receive damage (therefore interrupted).
Melee dont get interrupted when receiving damage, they dont care if they are silenced and not interrupted if they are shot at.
So i really think CC is an important part of an mmo, it brings elements of strategy, suspense, balance (some will argue here but still), remove the CC and it can easily become a melee game with less strategy.
Originally posted by dreamer05
Honestly when you first look at it DAoC seemed to have quite a bit of heavy and mass CC, but honestly as someone else said it really worked with everything put together in battle. I loved how unique the class in DAoC were and I also enjoy giving players the opportunity to specialize in CC if that's what they enjoy. The long term and aoe mezzes were pretty aggitating when they happened to you but I didn't ever get the feeling that they were too overpowered.
Just slightly off topic I LOVED the Mid Healer class. A mix of healing and CC? Best class I've ever played!
+1 for 1st part
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC Thurka on WAR
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
I tend to play casters or ranged classes. And I don't like CC. I want it to be extremely minimal, perhaps even going so far as to say the only time you will "stun" somebody is if you critically hit them.
hm having a stun everytime you crit in daoc terms means every 2nd - 3rd spell of a wp5 caster (gives 39% crit chance) hows that not op ? ^^
having a daocish rupt system but no/next to no cc makes any non melee unplayable ... 1-5 sec for mezz/root doesnt work as long as the caster isnt able to 2 shot everything simply because with no/very small cc you have no chance to do anything as soon as a melee hits you or you get rupted
just a small scenario to show what i mean ... think of you as a daoc wizzard (normal dd caster got 2 bolds and a normal dd +a root) and this root lasts 5 sec instead of 40sec = you see an enemy tank runing towards you on cap range you start to nuke he resists 2 times till he reaches you now hes on lets say 30% hp so you qc(1 uninteruptable cast) root him turn round run after 5 sec you turn round and cast again in 5 sec you had the chance to get enough space to cast 2 times again got a crit everything is fine the tank wich is only able to melee is dead...
now imagine this situation with a hybrid(melee with some 1-2 instant spells) attacking you wich means someone whos able to rupt you for several sec on cap range ... so you begin to cast ->he rupts you- runs to you -maybe your able to cast 1-2 dds upon him so hes on like 60% hp when he reaches-> you root him same thing like before-> but this time hes able to rupt you again so you're never able to deal any dmg upon him again simply because you have no chance to get into a distance that covers the time you need till the rupt is over
and now imagine all this happening in a 8vs8 when theres not only 1 guy throwing rupts out every few sec but 8 or if its a zerg of lets say 100 ? how are caster supposed to cast anything without enough cc to get into position ? the whole game would turn into a pure melee fest with a few supps to throw heals at the beginning but not be able to do a thing as soon as the battle begings .. sounds kinda epic
all these games with a cap of 5 sec mezz or something like that dont have this "every tiny snowflake hitting your armor rupts your next cast" system thats the reason why theres no long lasting cc there you simply dont need a long lasting ae mezz when you can cast even though theres that guy infront of you smashing your head into the ground
and if i compare to WAR when i was pulled, pushed, kicked around 40 feet away and such, i totally hated it. let me be mezzed for 45 seconds, i still prefer that than to feel like a damn soccer ball.
Plus, imo, CC a la DAoC suits more mmorpgs than CC a la WAR.
but then again, i wont argue with anyone at all, its a matter of opinion.
Actually I would really like some hardcore and consequent CC. THIS post is the best one Unfortunately being a soccer ball was one of the most immersive memories left of WAR.
It should deternine the fight, otherwise it's just an unorganised scamble of who has more, who hits hardest and who can heal most.
Thid 2-4 taking on groups and 8vZERG was teh fun. As a pac healer daoc had the intensity of a fps roaming round old emain looking to land that perfect first mezz, and the frustration of standing still futile for a minute was ok, knowing that a misplaced aoe spell would free me, also allowed time to plan wtf i was going to do (if i didn't insta die).
If I did insta die it was because the opposition were organised, I'd like to have the opportunity to beat more with less and that only comes from a decent CC system
You can hide sooooo easily in massive fight, caster just pick a dmg target, cast 2Direct damage, get the kill, move a bit to look around, and repeat.
In my opinion caster where way too much powerful in daoc because they used to have root + stun/mezz + BIG dps + instant debuff.
At least dps should NEVER be able to stun/mezz by themselves. It's a teamwork, deal with it!
did you read what i said ? ive spoken about a daoc rupt system+no cc and not about assisting caster and these O_o
and actually 2 of 3 of the main cc classes didnt had any real dmg a pac healer wasnt even able to kill a mob 2 lvl below him
and a sorc didnt nuked most of the fight since it wasnt her job in a grp fight dunno what you played but caster werent op ... you just got punished for letting ppl do what ever they want
Stuns need to to play a role in the ability to stop casts and limited short term solution situations (escape mechanics). Lets eliminate stun locks seen in some recent mmos.
Mez needs to be longer durations to allow for dynamic focused teams to engage situations where they are outnumbered and still have a competitive edge, ie. Zerg busting
Roots/snare limited but effective to give ranged a chance to not get wtfpwned. Maybe diminished return set up as we have previously seen.
CC removal tools need to be universal for all classes. Limited class specific additional options, maybe faster recovery for tanks?
Silence limited but effective. Can't be like stun lock for casters.
Interrupts need more to encourage strategy and paying attention, not just interrupt casting, melee skills with wind ups.
Knockbacks/Pulls. Never was a fan ....but please keep it limited. Positional control is such a powerful tool in strategy based mmorpg.
and actually 2 of 3 of the main cc classes didnt had any real dmg a pac healer wasnt even able to kill a mob 2 lvl below him
Eldritch, empath, spiritmaster, sorcerer, theurgist. They all have at least 2 control, including a mezz or a stun (only cabalist, wizard, runemaster, enchanter didn't, before they put new classes). They may not have a 50sec control but they don't need it either.
Concerning sorc, many of them used to boost body spec higher than the mezz spec and had a powerful lifesteal (with a yellow mezz)
Please note, none of the added classes got stuns or mezz, proof they understood their mistake.
DAOC system worked because it had liek 60 second immunity to stunns / mezz after they broke..
You had to think about if it was the best time to stun else you would give them immunity and it would affect the rest of the fight. Had to have such coordination in end game 8v8 fights to work together to time cc after purges. It got more of FFA when everyone had 5min purge, I think 15 min purge was the best, really made you think about using it, miss OF RA's ( minus the broken RR5 ones )
Like many before me have stated....keep CC in the game much like DAoC evolved it. It is what separates the skilled players from the average ones. Like we have seen in the most recent itteration of RvR (GW2)....everyone just zergs around in a big ball and it becomes boring very quickly. We need various types of CC to help pick off piece of the zerg effectively. CC also helps encourage 8v8 fighting outside of the standard zerg keep taking.
- keep the various types of cc used in daoc. mez, stun, root/snare, near sight, blind/miss.
- allow spells/attacks to be interupted . that is the huge thing i see in all new mmo games. you can run around with someone smashing your face in and still just free cast. this completely takes away kiting, positioning, etc. it also encourages more skill in using your interupts at the correct times and on the right targets mid fight.
- allow many options to counter CC (but at a cost). if you want to be immune to CC then you need to spec for it. high level of purge or high level of resistance is the key. like many others already said...CC duration on tanks wasn't really in issue in the mid/late stages of DAoC because of this.
Comments
It has to be there and to be effective but I think they need to think out of the box when balancing it.
Things like AoE CC that gets stronger with each target it hits, CCs that require the caster to channel them etc.
this whole discussion isnt realy about the duration of the cc (ok maybe for stun it is but not for the rest) ... its about the abilitys to break/counter cc
its ok to have a 5min ae mezz if there are like thousands of demezzes/purges because you get punished for throwing everything you got within the first few situations happening even though you dont need to do that ...
but having this 5 min mezz wihtout a single demezz is op
i liked the new age daoc's cc system where a mezz on a full resi buffed caster lasted like 30-40 sec while a det5 stoicism full resi buffed tank (means 50% less duration in first tier via resis then 55%(det)+25%(stoi) via ras in sec tier and maybe even less via sec tier resis) stood like 4 secs in a max lvl single target mezz(base dura something about 1 min) and a 10 sec stun wasnt more than a lag
plus you always had the possibility to spec purge (5-15 min timer depending how high you specced it +off tanks had also charge wich gave em cc in invulnerability+movement speed for 15 secs every 30 secs) and there were demezzes by certain classes and some artes blocking cc's 1 time so you always had the posibility to break out of a cc if there was the need to
so only if your demzzer was rupted/cced your purge timer was down and you werent a tank you stood in cc for 30 sec and this barely happened more than 1 time per evening and with a good grp it never happened ... and in my opinion this is a good made cc system wich punishes you for being bad but rewards you if your good with rupting the enemy/being good
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I'm just wondering, what are teh majority of you used to playing/looking to play that favor cc?
In my experience, most people that prefer cc, especially "lots of it/long cc" are the casters/archers/range claasses.
As a melee player, CC can be an extremely fun killer, especially when there's a ton of it and no purge/ability to get outof it. Being kited to death over and over and stun-locked for entire fights, is not that fun from a melee fighters perspective.
If there is a lot of CC I hope there's more variety and counters to it then a long cd purge and things.
With full interruption system you have to have many ways to CC otherwise casters wouldn't be able to cast at all. What's more in daoc nowdays with det 5, stoicism etc. CC doesn't last long.
I'm thinking about classic DAoC (or as it is on Uthgard atm), so much longer lasting CC than modern DAoC.
Stun-locking doesn't exist in DAoC. Are you sure you aren't confused with another game (WoW perhaps)?
Without purge up you can be out of a fight, at least long ago in DAOC with long timed CC's.
Perhaps stun wasn't the right word for it, thought hat does exist in a lot of newer mmorpgs as well.
CC is generally the "bane" of mele eplayers, and one of the hardest was to "balance" combat between melee players and range.
CC in nowdays in daoc is better. You should look into how it looks now. It's totally not bane for melee character. I would say casters have hard time.
Honestly when you first look at it DAoC seemed to have quite a bit of heavy and mass CC, but honestly as someone else said it really worked with everything put together in battle. I loved how unique the class in DAoC were and I also enjoy giving players the opportunity to specialize in CC if that's what they enjoy. The long term and aoe mezzes were pretty aggitating when they happened to you but I didn't ever get the feeling that they were too overpowered.
Just slightly off topic I LOVED the Mid Healer class. A mix of healing and CC? Best class I've ever played!
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
For my part i think it is part of a good mmorpg. everyone can be CCed, not just melee.
But casters can be silenced, interrupted, shot at (therefore also interrupted), receive damage (therefore interrupted).
Melee dont get interrupted when receiving damage, they dont care if they are silenced and not interrupted if they are shot at.
So i really think CC is an important part of an mmo, it brings elements of strategy, suspense, balance (some will argue here but still), remove the CC and it can easily become a melee game with less strategy.
+1 for 1st part
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I tend to play casters or ranged classes. And I don't like CC. I want it to be extremely minimal, perhaps even going so far as to say the only time you will "stun" somebody is if you critically hit them.
hm having a stun everytime you crit in daoc terms means every 2nd - 3rd spell of a wp5 caster (gives 39% crit chance) hows that not op ? ^^
having a daocish rupt system but no/next to no cc makes any non melee unplayable ... 1-5 sec for mezz/root doesnt work as long as the caster isnt able to 2 shot everything simply because with no/very small cc you have no chance to do anything as soon as a melee hits you or you get rupted
just a small scenario to show what i mean ... think of you as a daoc wizzard (normal dd caster got 2 bolds and a normal dd +a root) and this root lasts 5 sec instead of 40sec = you see an enemy tank runing towards you on cap range you start to nuke he resists 2 times till he reaches you now hes on lets say 30% hp so you qc(1 uninteruptable cast) root him turn round run after 5 sec you turn round and cast again in 5 sec you had the chance to get enough space to cast 2 times again got a crit everything is fine the tank wich is only able to melee is dead...
now imagine this situation with a hybrid(melee with some 1-2 instant spells) attacking you wich means someone whos able to rupt you for several sec on cap range ... so you begin to cast ->he rupts you- runs to you -maybe your able to cast 1-2 dds upon him so hes on like 60% hp when he reaches-> you root him same thing like before-> but this time hes able to rupt you again so you're never able to deal any dmg upon him again simply because you have no chance to get into a distance that covers the time you need till the rupt is over
and now imagine all this happening in a 8vs8 when theres not only 1 guy throwing rupts out every few sec but 8 or if its a zerg of lets say 100 ? how are caster supposed to cast anything without enough cc to get into position ? the whole game would turn into a pure melee fest with a few supps to throw heals at the beginning but not be able to do a thing as soon as the battle begings .. sounds kinda epic
all these games with a cap of 5 sec mezz or something like that dont have this "every tiny snowflake hitting your armor rupts your next cast" system thats the reason why theres no long lasting cc there you simply dont need a long lasting ae mezz when you can cast even though theres that guy infront of you smashing your head into the ground
Actually I would really like some hardcore and consequent CC. THIS post is the best one
Unfortunately being a soccer ball was one of the most immersive memories left of WAR.
Why would you rage quit haha
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Did you really play daoc?
Caster are not OP in bus?
Seriously?
You can hide sooooo easily in massive fight, caster just pick a dmg target, cast 2Direct damage, get the kill, move a bit to look around, and repeat.
In my opinion caster where way too much powerful in daoc because they used to have root + stun/mezz + BIG dps + instant debuff.
At least dps should NEVER be able to stun/mezz by themselves. It's a teamwork, deal with it!
edit: BTW 5sec mezz sucks, would you like a sheep morph with that?
I want CC.
It should deternine the fight, otherwise it's just an unorganised scamble of who has more, who hits hardest and who can heal most.
Thid 2-4 taking on groups and 8vZERG was teh fun. As a pac healer daoc had the intensity of a fps roaming round old emain looking to land that perfect first mezz, and the frustration of standing still futile for a minute was ok, knowing that a misplaced aoe spell would free me, also allowed time to plan wtf i was going to do (if i didn't insta die).
If I did insta die it was because the opposition were organised, I'd like to have the opportunity to beat more with less and that only comes from a decent CC system
/anon
did you read what i said ? ive spoken about a daoc rupt system+no cc and not about assisting caster and these O_o
and actually 2 of 3 of the main cc classes didnt had any real dmg a pac healer wasnt even able to kill a mob 2 lvl below him
and a sorc didnt nuked most of the fight since it wasnt her job in a grp fight dunno what you played but caster werent op ... you just got punished for letting ppl do what ever they want
My two cents,
Stuns need to to play a role in the ability to stop casts and limited short term solution situations (escape mechanics). Lets eliminate stun locks seen in some recent mmos.
Mez needs to be longer durations to allow for dynamic focused teams to engage situations where they are outnumbered and still have a competitive edge, ie. Zerg busting
Roots/snare limited but effective to give ranged a chance to not get wtfpwned. Maybe diminished return set up as we have previously seen.
CC removal tools need to be universal for all classes. Limited class specific additional options, maybe faster recovery for tanks?
Silence limited but effective. Can't be like stun lock for casters.
Interrupts need more to encourage strategy and paying attention, not just interrupt casting, melee skills with wind ups.
Knockbacks/Pulls. Never was a fan ....but please keep it limited. Positional control is such a powerful tool in strategy based mmorpg.
Vymm
Eldritch, empath, spiritmaster, sorcerer, theurgist. They all have at least 2 control, including a mezz or a stun (only cabalist, wizard, runemaster, enchanter didn't, before they put new classes). They may not have a 50sec control but they don't need it either.
Concerning sorc, many of them used to boost body spec higher than the mezz spec and had a powerful lifesteal (with a yellow mezz)
Please note, none of the added classes got stuns or mezz, proof they understood their mistake.
DAOC system worked because it had liek 60 second immunity to stunns / mezz after they broke..
You had to think about if it was the best time to stun else you would give them immunity and it would affect the rest of the fight. Had to have such coordination in end game 8v8 fights to work together to time cc after purges. It got more of FFA when everyone had 5min purge, I think 15 min purge was the best, really made you think about using it, miss OF RA's ( minus the broken RR5 ones )
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Like many before me have stated....keep CC in the game much like DAoC evolved it. It is what separates the skilled players from the average ones. Like we have seen in the most recent itteration of RvR (GW2)....everyone just zergs around in a big ball and it becomes boring very quickly. We need various types of CC to help pick off piece of the zerg effectively. CC also helps encourage 8v8 fighting outside of the standard zerg keep taking.
- keep the various types of cc used in daoc. mez, stun, root/snare, near sight, blind/miss.
- allow spells/attacks to be interupted . that is the huge thing i see in all new mmo games. you can run around with someone smashing your face in and still just free cast. this completely takes away kiting, positioning, etc. it also encourages more skill in using your interupts at the correct times and on the right targets mid fight.
- allow many options to counter CC (but at a cost). if you want to be immune to CC then you need to spec for it. high level of purge or high level of resistance is the key. like many others already said...CC duration on tanks wasn't really in issue in the mid/late stages of DAoC because of this.