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Dungeons & Dragons Online: Hands-On Preview
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
News Manager Jon Wood is an admited DnD nerd. Thus, Turbine's Dungeons and Dragons Online holds a place close to his heart. He recently had the chance to play the game in San Fransisco to test his worries as an avid DnD player against the actual product. This is the first of three articles from this visit.
;) Recently, I had the opportunity to attend a press event for Turbines Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach. Before I even left, I knew what to expect. I was told that the games lead designer, Ken Troop was going to give us a brief overview of the game before we ourselves would have a chance to sit down in front of it.
Those were the expectations that I was told to have. The trip, for me, came with its own set of expectations. I am what you would call a hard-core DnD player. I still run a game with my friends and we tend to play at least two or three times a week, and have been for the last six or seven years. I love everything about the pen and paper version of the game. My girlfriend plays and my dogs ball is actually a big, plush D20. Thats the kind of DnD nerd I am. |
You can read his full preview here
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
Is their goal to only get the people who play PnP D&D with their friends? It seems like it. I don't know anyone who plays D&D, anymore. Though, I would love to. It sounds like I need to have RL friends playing this game to enjoy it. I'm disappointed.
I use to be a hardcore DnD nerd, till I moved to a place where no one played it, at least that was my perception, but I have fond memories of the days that my friends and I would play pen and paper and its good to hear this game will closely resemble that gameplay.
"Is their goal to only get the people who play PnP D&D with their friends? It seems like it. I don't know anyone who plays D&D, anymore. Though, I would love to. It sounds like I need to have RL friends playing this game to enjoy it. I'm disappointed."
I don't think that's the case really. They actually have a pretty good system worked out for players who are looking for a party. I was just giving my ideal perception for my own use.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
I feel the same way.
DDO is a mistery for me right now. Turbine seems to be making some horrible choices that can only be either a completely revolutionary steps in making excelent MMO - or utter mistake ?
One of the biggest issues on everybodys mind is instancing. We all grown to hate it... can DDO change this?
Is DDO using it in some soprisingly diferent and good way ? Questions keep piling up...
What i would like to hear and was not discussed until now , is following.
- How detailed is character creation (i mean avatar creation) ?
- How big is stormreach , and since it is only non instanced area - do you think it is Roleplay enchancing
(this is hard question to understand... but if you are roleplayer you will know what i am talking about)
- I read somwhere that combat is a little bit to hectic! Is this true ?
- Turbine claims that quests are the real strenght of DDO. Can you tell us what is so special about the quests ?
Looking forward to read more of preview from D&D nerd .
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
No offense to the reviewer (who I'm sure has played many a game of D&D) but that's a load of crap.
It is a bizzare irony that what got me interested in seeing games out there like Shadowbane with open PvP and the ability to build your own empire was in fact a D&D campaign I was in.
The great thing about D&D was the cooperation (yes cooperation) between the GM and the players. You can't get that in an MMORPG or any online game unless every group of gamers out there has their own GM running things. They have forgotten that "five or six of your friends" included whoever was GMing at the time. It is something starkly missing from mmorpgs in general. Until AI progresses far enough to fill those awfully large shoes, someone has to manage these games we're playing in real-time. Where are all the GMs in the game developer circles? Seems to me they're trying so hard to make the games look good that they forget to make them BE good. A good online game has to take a page from what makes a successful and enjoyable P&P D&D game, that partnership. But with the exception of the voodoo game they play after release with the game forums and trolling for comments, the devs are 'hands off' when it comes to actually running the game. As any good DM will tell you, it's not enough to create a good game and set up all the quests before hand. You can't hand it to the players then and say "Go for it guys." You have to be there, and not just to handle the mechanics of the game and roll dice for everyone who is not a player. You have to do stuff, make stuff happen, the important things and the trivial things. The reason most mmorpgs do as well as they do is because everyone is allowed to play at the same time and the sheer magnitude of things to do keeps people around for some time, and if you let them whack away on each other indiscriminately, they will constantly come up with new and interesting ways to whack each other, but is that really role-playing? The artists, desingers and writers are very good at coming up with a universe to play in. They haven't gotten the knack for actually running it after they let the players in. It makes me wonder if they even interviewed any game masters during the development process. The great thing about D&D was that the GM could do literally anything. From a mystery in a small village to a slug-fest between armies with players on both sides. Tell me: are we going to see the same kind of variety with instanced quests and a little happy player sandbox? I went from a blacksmiths son to a leader of my own nation in D&D. It was hard because the GM was a son-of-a-bitch who didn't me get away with anything, but I this great feeling of accomplishment afterwards. I liked that game so much I would consider going back to it if I could find the GM again. This is ten years later and I think the game mechanics are silly and juvenile (although they've come a long way in the franchise), so you can understand that I would really have to like the campaign to return to the game under any circumstances.
Maybe I'm wrong about D&D online, but it looks to me like how I played Baldurs Gate with other people. I don't play that anymore, for obvious reasons. It's hard to ruin the franchise, but it looks a lot like that's what they're trying to do. It certainly isn't an mmorpg, and I don't think they're staying true to the P&P version either. It's like they're handing me a dead hampster and calling it a fun pet. I don't have to try it out to know that they're wrong, unless I'm one very seriously disturbed person.
Trainwreck waiting to happen. Mark my words.
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
I really liked the review and i had doubts that the game would not be a good mmo without pvp,instances and crafting but now i think it could still be a really cool game.
I never personally played dnd but i did play never winter nights which had the dnd rules which i loved, and i always thought the same rules would be cool in an mmo.
This review has put my mind at ease a lot as i was really looking forward to this game coming out but as i said the thought of no pvp put me of a bit ,but now i cant wait for the release
well with the stupid split betwen european and US servers I cannot play with all my guild/friends. For a game that is selling itself as being 'small group of friends' friendly it totally fails for many online gamers whom have friends across the globe.
I play ad&d 3.5 regularly every sunday using a virtual desktop programme. We are a mix of ex-pats, eu nationals and us nationals. with the current retared deal with codemasters we will not be able to play DDO together with our regular group and with our other friends both national and international unless we each buy two copies and pay two subscritions to the same game. This business model is very anti-international and make it damn near impossible small groups of seperated friends playing together - sadly this is where it should be very strong.
I lose more interest in DDO with every new piece of information that emerges.
It does indeed sound as though the game's being designed for pre-existing D&D groups, although whether a bunch of people that can already sit around in each other's front rooms drinking beer and playing D&D face to face will find the idea of all sitting alone at home and doing the same thing in virtuality at all attractive remains to be seen.
For the rest of us, which will surely be the huge majority of the potential audience, it sounds very much as if we are going to get the Guild Wars Instanced Quest Experience - meet a bunch of people you never heard of before, run through Segment 4.1 of Quest XYZ in the fastest possible time, then all split up without saying goodbye and expect (or hope) never to see any of them again.
Anyway, didn't Neverwinter Nights already put D&D online for gaming groups? And in a very successful and flexible format?
I would have loved to play a reall MMORPG in one of the classic D&D settings, but this mish-mash of genres, both in the backstory and the gameplay, looks like one to avoid.
If you play D&D v3.5, stick to the P&P version. You have been warned.
I played the classic DnD many years ago. It was those experiences that got me interested in the current MMO's of today. I admit it has always been a dream for a good MMO of DnD to appear. I am a little worried about the my ability to play this game because all the palyers I used to play DnD with are no longer around. I fear that the lack of interaction will lead to a inability to find a solid group of online friends to play with on a consistant basis. The community I play with now are so used to the play style of the current MMO's I fear they won't be able to maintain interest in this game. Many are hard core griders who play every day for hours on end. I dont have the time to do that. I would like to find a game that I will be able to log on hit a module (instance quest) then log off til a couple of days later.
I do believe this game will be able to do that. I also believe this game will be the closest representive of the classic game to date, which I will enjoy.
As I stated before my greatest fear will be the ability to find a group of players that I will be able to group with on occasions and hit a quest, which I do see as a mini module. Most of the current modules I see are produced through the magazines like Dungeon and Dragon. They are small and are only intended to provide a couple of hours game play. If you see this game a bunch of mini modules then they have stayed true to a PnP setting. As far as some of the game changes from PnP to computer its not that big of a deal. many changes are introduce by DM's in order to fit his or her campaign. Unearthed Arcana introduced a ton of changes for DM's to run a new campaign on. Nobody bitched about that book. I dont know 3.5 rules very well and many not at all but 2nd addition was changed by that book coming out. I see the designers changes are in line with most and are nothing more than a new set of rules to fit a campaign.
If I can find the groups then I believe I will enjoy this game. If I can't then yes the game will be difficult to play and eventually will wind up at Vanguard with most of my current MMO friends.
Bhagpuss, you hit my thoughts perfectly.
This is what I would ask anyone who has played DDO:
First, as I'm sure we all know, the terms mod and "TC" come from the first person shooter genre, with TC being short for "total converstion".
DDO to me seems to be little more than a mod, or at best a TC, for Guild Wars. If you have played both DDO and Guild Wars, what is your honest and realistic comparison of the two? In the long run, after playing the game for awhile, do you expect it to boil down to the same basic game experience of going through the same quests once again with new characters?
Those are the questions that I want addressed before I give any serious thought to DDO. I don't in the least mean to come across snobbish, but DDO to me seems like what would be created if NC released a campaign editor to their players.
~Mysk
Been PnP since late 70s-early 80s, although Dungeons and Dragons was probably the least played.
I am very neutral to this game. Building a real D&D character in an MMO sounds fun. Exploring a completly new world I know nothing about sounds fun.
Guild Wars 1.5... sounds not so fun.
I will probably buy it, and try it...
But I still put my money on Conan by Funcom, or Warhammer by Mythic. Two companies that has proven they can create a new concept and actually make it superb.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
FoE Fist of the Empire
Thanks for the review Jon,
much apprechiated.
'till swords meet again
V.
'till swords meet again!
V.
Reading all these comments, I shudder in disbelief at the total lack of understanding of what makes a great game. So, allow me to do some comparisons, namely to Guild Wars and World of Warcraft (both of which I have played or am playing, respectively). You will see that your fears are just absurd.
Both GW and WoW use instancing. Does it work? I would say no for GW, but a strong YES for WoW. In fact, 5-person instance runs are a wonderful way to meet new people and get to know them intimately over the few hours you have to play together under pressure to accomplish common goals. Friendship is most likely to develop in these exact conditions, as any psychologist will tell you. Most of my friends in WoW are from instance runs, and 10% that are not are from quest groups for non-instanced quests that could mind as well BE instanced anyway, you find a group and then do it like it was instanced.
Why then doesn't it work in GW? Simple: all servers are combined, so there are so many people that reputation doesn't matter, you never meet the same people again anyway. You also level so fast that any friends you meet are never in the same phase, and all quests and instances need to be done only once since there is no point in making loot runs. And on top of all that, you can hire henchmen and so don't actually NEED other players at all; in fact, the henchmen seem to play better than other players, because people never actually learn to play in group. I managed to do all quests with henchmen, which probably means that anyone who is actually any good plays solo, and thus you mostly just have crappy players asking for group.
So how does DDO differ? For one thing, DDO worlds are very small, so reputation matters - you must be more polite and respectful of others since it doesn't take long for half the server to /ignore you, and you WILL meet the same people again. There may not be much of a countryside other than inside instances, but in WoW your non-instanced encounters with others are generally limited to being ganked and /spit on, seeing their back as they go about their business, or if you get really lucky, having them steal your loot or quest kill(s) and lolling at you because "you sux0rz n00b, I pwns y00". But you don't befriend new people in the wilderness. Instanced or non-instanced, you still use the LFG channel to meet people. For those who ask for more "realism", I can only say that I meet enough idiots in the real world already, I have no need to see them in the game as well.
A word about PvP: I am SO happy that they left it out - not just because it doesn't fit the theme or the design of D&D but because PvP, just as all other competitive elements, always degrades a community. Yes, I know many are going to argue against this point, but I have played so long and so many games that there is not the slightest shred of doubt about this conclusion in my mind. Most appear to do it just because you are "supposed to" though, since the developers designed the game that way. That would seem to suggest that if a game is developed without PvP, the same people will oppose any who demand it. And that means lack of PvP is not going to cause the game to fail. 100,000 beta applications, remember.
The only real question is, how easy is it to find a group, and what is there to do in Stormreach. If they manage to make it a place where people want to spend time, perhaps provide activities such as gambling, trading, etc., the concept is going to work out great. But even if it's nothing more than just a big room with a "looking for group" channel, I think it might work. More info on this would be crucial, as well as any possible motivation to repeat the quests. The WoW solution would be loot runs of course. There should be some kind of solo activity as well, although I at least personally wouldn't mind spending 95% of the time in groups. But sometimes you need a little time to recover from a bad run, and to focus on your personal skills.
Rattrap, you asked why they are saying that quests are the real strength of DDO. I can tell you that: because instancing allows them to develop actual stories and adventures, whereas without instances all quests would be limited to "go to spot X, kill monster Y, return to get lame reward Z". Instancing allows them to control challenge level, story progression, etc. As for roleplay, I would imagine roleplay works better when you just have your roleplay group in an instance, rather than a bunch of l33t kids running by all the time telling you how RP "sux0rz" and lolling at you, but the city is probably a pretty vibrant place too.
Mysk, as for your question of the game eventually boiling down to repeating the same quests over and over again... you understand of course that EVERY game in existence today matches that description? As long as nobody has the guts to base a game on player-created content (which is the only possible solution to this problem really), all games will eventually run out of content, and players have to start all over again with new characters or switch to another game. This is just how it is. Recently there was news that Saga of Ryzom will implement something like that, which was very exciting news, but their design seems to lack a player-run testing and review process which might be the stumbling block for the whole idea...
Jade6
You make a very good point there.
Actually if we could belive DDO instancing would work as you described it , it might work very good.
Still as many people stated there is lot of things that arise suspicion in DDO.
I say we will just have to wait and see.
It is sad really when you think about it. Turbine deciding to make a first D&D mmorpg like this.
Imagine online Faerun
Even just online Swordcoast , where you can go freely and roam the land as you wish. You see abandoned ruin , you enter it (perhaps this could be instance - instanced dungeons). All 20 levels implemented , most of the skills , classes and feats. Crafting. And why not even the PvP.
This game would be a dream, and would surely kill the competition.
It would take some time to make but it it would be doable, and D&D fans would know it is worth the wait.
What DDO offers ? Well first thing that spooked me was ACTION BASED COMBAT !?!! I mean it is an excelent concept ... but do D&D players really look for it ? No, D&D player looks for faitfull implementation of the game rules....They are surely no ACTION fanatics
Only first 10 levels , no druids ?!
Lets wait and see. I surelly wish to be suprised.
Anyway D&D players do not despare. We know that DDO is not only D&D game comming for us.
A real jewel is soon to follow
NWN2
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
It did... they call it "World of Warcraft".
I'm actually happy that they are making DDO this way, assuming I have understood them right. Because, and I will be frank with you on this, otherwise it would either have been a WoW clone, or it would just have sucked. All we need now is a player-created content system to make sure the game never ends.
So DDO will be just like GW, just that you have to pay a monthly fee for it?
Yeah, I can see that working, not...
I hear ya. AD&D geek for half my life, play it regularly with my wife. Looking forward to this, but I anticipate the manufactured Wizards setting to come off as a less effective version of Lankhmar, the original city-only campaign setting. Even in Greyhawk you could leave the city. Should have done Ravenloft, as in the ORIGINAL, not the new version. Ugh. Those familiar wizards from classic D&D will be forgotten to sweep in the new marketing board style mass-produced gamers. A shame, no longer Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter to smite your enemy with or the Tenser's Floating Disc for that interesting convenience. Mordenkainen, Rary, Tenser, Melf (biggest nerd mage), Elminster of Shadowdale, the Seven Sisters. All gone.
I don't really picture PvP in D&D, however in an MMO it's commonplace. I think the elements will clash and make it an unenjoyable experience for true fans of AD&D before TSR sold out to Wizards of The Coast (groan). I'll give it a try though. Everything deserves a chance.
I've played "3rd Edition" a lot and even had some good times, but it's generic. I anticipate this won't be much different. Even the novels for Dragonlance went poo in the 3rd Age setting imposed on it. At least The Clandestine Circle was a good one without too much of the 3rd Age bleeding into it. For the uninitiated, 3rd Age was a setting change for Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonlance. New novels were written and new adventures published. This was due to Wizards of The Coast buying out the company TSR and producing the old D&D games in a new, stylish, and far less interesting way. Though there were great new contributions, rather than adding them and redoing the artwork to finer quality, they butchered the system, genericized it, and now the art is more comic book than realist (LARRY ELMORE! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?)
It's like watching my childhood hobby die or I suppose Bach waking up a thousand years later to hearing some remix butchering of his fugues. It's irreverent, but I guess there's no choice in today's age when the fan means so little. It's all about who bought the creative licence to abuse a fine piece of imaginative work nowadays to exploit for a bit of cash. Some CEO out there runs this and has likely never played the game in their life.
Why make DDO? Why not call it Eberron Online? After all, it has that little in common with real AD&D.
"3rd Edition" D&D by Wizards of The Coast is vastly different, in production style and art, what you can play, settings, and subclasses. It's a new game gimmick riding on old one's famous name, they should just rename it and not bother calling it Dungeons & Dragons. If you played it 15 years ago you wouldn't know what people were doing at a 3rd Ed gaming table, but I do sense a tingling urge to shout "Munchkin!" at all those people who like to play it with mingy races, classes, stats, and other juicy things for the under 10th lvl munchkin that allow them to upset the game balance so the DM has to make only minimal effort to use their brains and actually come up with a story or setting of their own.
DDO aka Eberron Online = probably brainless. But we shall see.
Word. DDO will be GW with a fee. I already play Guild Wars, why waste my time on this when I can just play second edition pen and paper style? My art's better and Forgotten Realms is more interesting without some cheeser generic panel deciding what kind of clothes Khelben Blackstaff will be bringing to the catwalk.
It IS Eberron Online and it will blow.
"...the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem and hardly ever what we dream."
"...the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem and hardly ever what we dream."
If you really believe that, you are either too clueless or too uninformed to be drawing any conclusions at all.
It could be GW with fee , but hopefully it will not.
I just hope that player base will be old D&D nerds. Than game will surely be fun
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas