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Wolvan's Solutions to Stealth
Wolvan
Member Posts: 49
Yes, I know a beaten subject. But I was thinking about it (from the buffing thread) and came up with a solution I really like, so I thought I would throw it out their for people to attack and call me names etc.
Background: I played a Shadowblade on DAOC for 6+ years. I was a defensive player, generally staying in Midgard's frontiers, I hunted and killed gankers, camped the midgard milegates and was one of the premier scouts fro Midgard-Percival. I also had a hunter. I've played stealthers in various other games, as well as non-stealthers in multiple games. Though, the most fun of any class/game was my Shadowblade. I LOVED scouting, killing gankers, and discovering that relic raid sneaking through our frontiers and arranging to have a big Midgard army waiting for it at the relic. 
So here are my thoughts on "fixing" stealth so it is still useful for scouting and all the things that come with it, WITHOUT it being a method to pop out of stealth and unload massive damage on some poor unsuspecting target. (I will miss those days)
1: Cast time on stealth (3 seconds). Cast time on exiting stealth. (shorter, 1 second)
2: In stealth, you can only attack other people in stealth (do they both stay in stealth or both come out...come out I think) The range at which stealthers can see each other depend on stealth skill or something like that. Not unlimited range.
3: To attack somebody not in stealth, you need to NOT be in stealth.
4: Non-stealthers can see stealthed characters at short range only. Non-stealthers who see a stealther CAN attack them, driving them out of stealth. (added via edit)
This allows the use of stealthed scouts AND encourages the use of "defensive" stealthers to clear enemy scouts. Stealthers would go out early to make sure the area has been sanitized of enemy stealthers. It also allows you to basically make any class type be your stealther. You could even give the class with stealth some extra stealth abilties...sabatoge siege, damage traps etc. Would make an army be sure to deploy its own stealthers to counter these abilities. And you wouldn't have to worry about being attacked by some stealthed assassin while your sitting around.
And yes, I would personally rather have DAOC style stealth back with assassin classes, but I know its not going to happen (direct from Mark's mouth). I think I could live with the above, as it would allow me to scout. And most fun, attack and kill enemy stealthers.
Ok, go ahead and flame!
Comments
Whiners ruin games and will ruin stealth players fun in CU
Feel bad for them because the stealth system in DAOC was so great ( and i never played a stealther past thid and got ganked countless times by them ).
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
As long as they have Perforate Artery in Camelot Unchained, I don't care what they do with stealth.
Flaming is useless
Debating now thats the way to go.
I was a hunter on merlin and played the same way. protecting/scouting our frontiers, killing gankers, report activites etc, i TRULY loved it. i love playing solo but in order to help the realm, it really brought me pride doing it.
Now as for your suggestions, here's my thoughts :
1- casting time to stealth i totally agree on that. as for casting time to unstealth, i'm not sure, but its 1 second i guess it could be ok.
2- i don't agree. although DAoC stealth was considered OPed by some, it was not. its what you could do right after unstealthing that was the main problem (backstab that stunned, poisons etc was too much). so what i would do instead is having some sort of special attack skill that could be done right when unstealthing, but with a big timer on it, i.e. 1 hour. It would allow "assassination" but having a timer on that attack skill that would be specific to the stealth skill would avoid the "too many ganking" aspect that we saw in DAoC.
Doing it that way would also allow stealthers class to mostly use the stealth as a mean of scouting, spying, reporting, rather than ganking too often for solo RPs
3 - Not aggreeing either, but my suggestion in point 2 would also solve the problem.
So my point toward stealth is this : we COULD make it like in DAoC, just change the things you can do once in stealth mode, and one way to control those action could be to allow them, but with only certain skills that can be used in stealth mode and put big timers on those action.
Assassination is part of a good MMO, lets just control the amount that can be done.
Edit : typo
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Bowbow,
I agree, its not my first choice. But Mark Jacobs has repeatedly said the attack from stealth class like old school daoc etc isn't going to happen. I am trying to find an alternative that would make all the stealth haters (ie people who never played a stealther, but got killed by them) happy and still allow people who enjoy stealth and scouting to do so. And even with my laid out points, you could still have an ability high up in the stealth spec line that would give you a timer ability to attack directly from stealth, on a cool down or such.
I didn't think DAOC stealth was over powered at all. But the whiners who where careless and let themselves get ganked whined loudly...so now stealth will never be the same for the rest of us.
I think there needs to be a stealth mechanic for scouting. I didn't play a dedicated stealther but I LOVED the scout class. Being able to fire a bow and sneak around was so fun. What was more fun was watching from a distance and reporting back to the guild or alliance. It sounds like most everyone else in this thread enjoyed that a lot too. So, I hope there is some way of doing that in CU.
Honestly, I think your idea is one of the few good ones I've seen in regards to stealth. Personally I hate the whole 'IWIN button attached to stealth openers' mechanic. I think you're idea is a good alternative.
There are 2 fundamental approaches to stealth, though:
For Permastealth, I really like your idea. It adds a whole new meta game to stealth. Making it important, viable, but not broken. Reminds me of playing TF2 and counter-spying. Another approach would be trying stealth to the enviroment (ie. having certain areas where you can stay in stealth (behind boxes, bushes, shady areas, etc.) and not allowing stealth out in the open. Either way, with permastealth I would say that the whole 'stealth opener' should probably be removed, in favor of more positional attacks.
For temporary stealth (duration based), I think openers are okay, provided stealth is limited (you don't have multiple skills that put you into stealth), and has a fairly lengthy cooldown (~45sec-60sec).
Either way you look at it, I think if you are going to have stealth mechanics in a game. Having counter-stealth mechanics is a MUST. This is something GW2 does very poorly. Either giving every class some kind of anti-stealth skill (on a decent cooldown ofc) or having stealthers able to see other stealthers, I think both are viable solutions to the problem. I do enjoy stealthy gameplay when games do it right, but most MMOs fail to handle stealth properly =/.
Daoc stealthing is great.
I would say best way to "fix" it would be allow other classes to spend "training" points on see stealth.
stealth classes would pay least , then light fighters, then tanks, casters pay mmost maybe even have seers pay low amount
I'm totally with you on that Wolvan, i agree that there was a lots of stealth haters too, but if we look at it more thoroughly, Stelath itself wasnt the problem, if we'd nerf what we can do when we're stealthed, it would totally be a different story.
I too would love to find a viable solution to keep "stealth" mode as close as possible from what it was in DAoC, whilr removing the OPed possibilities from it.
i would so LOVE to be able to scout again with a good effective stealth, as a hunter, either it will happen or not who knows, but we re still pretty damn early in CU, so we still have a chance to offer a great deal of suggestions to have a viable stealther class that wouldnt and mostly COULDNT be considered OPed.
I could even go as far as offering a line of skills that comes with stealth, any other skills couldnt be done when stealthed or i.e. or x seconds before having unstealthed, or like i said on previous post, add a big timer on some of the skills.
Wolvan's quote here : But Mark Jacobs has repeatedly said the attack from stealth class like old school daoc etc isn't going to happen.
it might implies that the real problem that he sees is like what i mention....the attacks, not stealth itself, we can find a solution
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
You're pretty smart for a filthy Mid, Wolvan... I guess that comes from playing on Percival!
As I've said in other threads, I think you guys are correct in that stealth wasn't what pissed people off... it was the huge openers. It is just not fun for visibles to start a fight from 50% health (and stunned and poisoned and out of melee range and blah, blah, blah.)
Remove the big openers, like you said. I REALLY like the "cast time" for entering, although without the big opening strikes, I don't see a need for a "cast time" for exiting stealth.
I think the idea of a "sabotage" ability is just freakin' awesome, especially in an RvR context.
I think any Scout Archetype class has to have some added mobility. I would suggest (as I have done many other times... I hope MJ has noticed!) an inheirant resistance to terrain based speed debuffs and/or increased movement through certain types of terrain.
All that said, I am (and forever shall be) an Archer at heart. I HOPE my Bow will not be neutered in the course of designing the class!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
i think we'd make an awesome trio of scouts ! And we all seem to prefer Vikings too
i also suggested quite a few scout skills in a thread that could be very awesome. hopefully some will reach the game
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
The thing is, in most of these types of games you can scout successfully WITHOUT stealth. It's all about playing smart, using the terrain to your advantage, and staying mobile.
The problem with stealth in most games, is it gets used as a 'get out of jail free' card. Personally, I don't think any class should have a guarunteed escape / win, and that's essentially what stealth gives you (though in some games you have to use it more carefully than others). Heck, even in WAR I could use the limited stealth to escape from fights I shouldn't have been able to.
However, inline w/ what the OP suggests, the problem may not necessarily be stealth per se, but rather a lack of counters to the stealth mechanic (especially when combined with classes being designed around it). I don't think stealth should be a guarunteed thing, but I also don't think stealth classes should be overly handicapped when their stealth fails.
Scouting in DAOC without stealth was very very difficult and often counter productive. You can't hide in terrain that well. You can't spy on an enemy army because you will be seen and either driven off or killed. It just doesn't work. Plus, you lose all chance of surprise if they see your non-stealth scouts nosing around.
Emercy,
I agree...probably don't need the cast time on coming out of stealth.
Oh, and Emercy was a filthy hibbie ranger, not a valiant and brave Viking warrior.
I like the idea of somebody in stealth only being able to attack somebody in stealth. It allows for the stealth wars that so many people enjoy, make stealthers useful and needed in armies and for raids etc. If you want to attack somebody out of stealth, you don't have any big from stealth openers...just your normal attacks, hopefully some nice positionals or such. I don't think a cooldown on stealth is required if their is a cast timer. It will prevent somebody from easily escaping, but will allow somebody who is smart who manages to break LOS to his pursurers to vanish into the shadows.
Other stealth abilities ideas: Enemy stealthers can see and disarm from a short distance. (When stealthed)
Trip Wire: Sets up an AOE area...that will cause an alarm to be sounded to the stealther who cast it. (no damage, just an alert) The people setting it off aren't able to see it.
Sabatoge: Ability to damage seige equipment etc
Trap: Ok, sorta like the DAOC ML spy ability to drop an aoe DOT on the ground that goes off when somebody runs over it.
Snare: AOE dot that snares people that run over it for a short duration.
Poison Water: If the stealther can sneak into a keep, he can use this ability to poison the water...and cause a debuff to all the NPC guards.
Those are just some of the idea's I could think of.
How about this. Roguesque players receive a Stealth (skill) ability that is toggled on and off.
The ability automatically makes the rogue invisible (after say 5 seconds) upon standing still.
At lower level, the rogue must stay in place (for 5 seconds) and will be visible if they move.
At higher level, the rogue can move very slowly after hiding (5 sec standing still). Creeping speed, not jogging speed.
If the player becomes visible on account of excessive movement, they will not meld back into stealth for 5 seconds.
If hit indirectly with an AoE damage ability, they will become visible for 10 seconds.
If struck with a ranged (magic included) or melee attack, stealth will be toggled off.
Indirect mez's, holds and such, will not break stealth.
Ease of stealth based upon armor and weapons worn, as well as the surrounding environment and level of darkness.
Ex. Open field = Reduces Stealth Ability ----- Forest = Increases Stealth Ability
Attacks from stealth will provide damage similar to DAoC rogues. Enhanced difficulty of stealth would balance it out.
Problem solved.
I think some complaints could be answered if we split stealth into two mechanics: scouting and assassination.
Scouting would be 'travel' stealth. VERY fragile shadowy figure can be seen within bow range, if character is moving. Pops completely at short ranged.
Assassination would be short-duration, but durable, rush-into-melee-range stealth, with a middlin' cool-down timer... you might even add a leap or sprint component... have it triggered from stealth (only) and exits stealth when the attack is made or the timer runs out.
The challenge to any would-be neck-stabber would be to get within Assassination steath range while moving (slightly visable) under Scout stealth. Or find a convenient path and wait motionless for someone to walk within range. Those are both fairly reasonable scenarios in real life (camouflage and ambuscade).
Either way it would force the user to consider cover, blind corners, lines of sight, etc.
Just a thought... what if you couldn't enter stealth while in an enemy's LoS? No more *poof* escapes. This would make ambushes require great preparation.
While I'm not a fan of the "assassination" based class, I like the idea of two different stealths: scouting stealth and ambush stealth. I would not have both types available to both classes, however.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
You could scout fine without stealth in DAOC especially in Mid and Alb frontiers. I used to do it with thane of all classes lol all it took was a tree, knowledge of tab target range and patience. Ministrels were probably the best because of stealth/speed combo but for mid skalds actually were pretty awesome. My own favourite scouting type mechanic was in Shadowbane with the Scout that actually did exactly that.. since they could barely hurt a fly otherwise
Unlimited duration stealth just creates a separate game that people play within the game, in DAOC maybe what 0.1% of stealthers actually scouted? As a stealther you just relied on your buffbot, rest of the realm absolutely optional. Once the stealh zerg got into full swing that became it's own ghetto completely separated from rest of the realm.
Why not just have stealth like WoW does.
problem solved.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Because Blizzard had pretty major problems balancing stealth in WoW?
Well it's a lot better than the stuff I see getting suggested on this forum. So, still better than anything suggested so far.
until a better way of doing stealth than WoW is suggested, I would rather stick to WoW's stealth model.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The only stealth I think would be good would be if an archer had a camouflage type ability but couldnt move while using it, well maybe moves really slow. Gives you a scout class with stealth but does not make it over powered or anything to worry about because its not a combat crutch or ability but should only be used when scouting. Can also make it only possible to use it when your in some kind of cover like bushes or shadows. Being able to stealth out in the open sunlight and walk around is just crap.
I'm glad that they arent going for an assassin type class here. There are enough games that already have them and usually are always the most played classes. Having large groups of stealthed assassins is lame.
Another bad idea IMO.
WoW's stealth still better.
stealth classes shouldn't be able to stealth in combat without long cooldownsl its whats wrong with Thief balance in GW2 IMO.
all damage should remove stealth. Dots, AoE, etc.
enemies who are stealth, if close in Melee range should get enhanced detection of other stealthed enemies.
using attack skills in stealth should auto unstealth. Non attack skills should not.
some classes get counter stealth abilities to track stealthed enemies in the field of view. This requires them to use their player skill and knowledge to detect stealthers and lay down traps or AoE that area to expose them.
stealthers have to have skill to move out of AoE, and try to avoid traps and detection skills.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Horrible idea, being able to walk around in sunlight and not be seen is just crap. Playing a game of hunt the invisible players is not fun.