In essence DAoC BGs are just like RvR but in a smaller map. They are more balanced than 50 RvR though which makes them great for new players to learn the game without having to face veterans who will probably crush them with their superior items/progression/teamwork/experience etc.
Some players even prefer DAoC BGs to level 50 RvR for various reasons (it's more casual, more balanced, they may not care about progression etc.)
And your not playing tag or planting a bomb!
why is everyone assuming there are no levels? Mark said not traditional leveling!! This could mean a ton of things.
also, if there are no levels the difference between a newly created toon and someone playing two years is not gonna be that great. Or else you would have no chance jumping into the fire!
why is everyone assuming there are no levels? Mark said not traditional leveling!! This could mean a ton of things.
also, if there are no levels the difference between a newly created toon and someone playing two years is not gonna be that great. Or else you would have no chance jumping into the fire!
MJ quote:
"...we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU. We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."
I like the sound of this, and it would not make any sense to have "levels" in the traditional sense. Plenty of progression/disparity can be achieved through stats/styles/abilities/equipment.
RvR should be one big playground for all levels, so no need to disperse people in some playground miniRvR zones.
Having a system to level in RvR would be defied by having some BG zones where people level differently or play differently than in real RvR.
***
For the I-wanna-insta-action, I-don't-wanna-wait crowd:
"But but but.... I don't want to eat dirt 1, 2 or 3 months in big boy RvR until I reach the highest level and be able to "compete", I want insta action!!"
RvR should be one big playground for all levels, so no need to disperse people in some playground miniRvR zones.
Having a system to level in RvR would be defied by having some BG zones where people level differently or play differently than in real RvR.
***
For the I-wanna-insta-action, I-don't-wanna-wait crowd:
"But but but.... I don't want to eat dirt 1, 2 or 3 months in big boy RvR until I reach the highest level and be able to "compete", I want insta action!!"
Well, this seems to be a wrong game for that.
Your "argument" against BG's doesn't make sense, and you are coming off as elitist and patronizing.
The game isn't out, and a lot of details are still floating around in the air. MJ probably has more scribbled notes lying haphazardly across his desk than anything concrete, and you are already telling people what the game is going to be like and if they don't like it then to go elsewhere? Nice.
BG's in DAoC did not split the population. It was never an issue and not one community thread was made on it to cause heated debate amongst the players. Level 50 RvR hummed along just fine with dedicated people participating in it. People who wanted to RvR but did not want to join the lvl 50 scene had another option: the BG's. It was not a divisive distraction. Level 50 RvR populations did not suffer from people funneling en masse to Thid, leaving the frontier keeps and relics undefended. Thinking that there was impact of one against another is absolutely ridiculous, and is only a construct here in this thread by an irrational few trying to back up their personal opinions.
Nope, no battlegrounds please. With no levels in the game, there will be no need to separate the low levels from the higher levels.
I hate instancing anyway. Splitting people up into small instanced areas would do nothing at all for the community feel that MJ wants to create.
Basically, newer players will die - a LOT - and hone their skills as they do it. And eventually they won't be newer players anymore, they will have built their skills and become the very people they feared a couple of months back, just as it should be .
The way I look at it, when DAOC first came out, and epic gear/df gear was available, we all pretty much had that and was the best you could get at that time. So basically everyone was on the same level of gear. Now we all had similar gear, we all we re level 50. So in CU, if we start at RR1L0, all have starter gear. Why have BGs. Where would they fit in.
For newer people, just get used to dieing from time to time. Or better yet, join a guild. I remember going out into Mid frontier and defending Fens, at level 38, as a RR was happening. My guild actually kept me alive most of the time.
Nope, no battlegrounds please. With no levels in the game, there will be no need to separate the low levels from the higher levels.
I hate instancing anyway. Splitting people up into small instanced areas would do nothing at all for the community feel that MJ wants to create.
Basically, newer players will die - a LOT - and hone their skills as they do it. And eventually they won't be newer players anymore, they will have built their skills and become the very people they feared a couple of months back, just as it should be .
1) Battlegrounds don't have to be instanced (see DAoC).
2) Can you name one game (with progression) that forces the newbies to fight against veterans on their first day?
why is everyone assuming there are no levels? Mark said not traditional leveling!! This could mean a ton of things.
also, if there are no levels the difference between a newly created toon and someone playing two years is not gonna be that great. Or else you would have no chance jumping into the fire!
MJ quote:
"...we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU. We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."
I like the sound of this, and it would not make any sense to have "levels" in the traditional sense. Plenty of progression/disparity can be achieved through stats/styles/abilities/equipment.
If it is like this what really is going to differentiate a toon 3 years played and a newly created one?
Absolutely for a BG in CU. I typically only play in DAoC BGs, seldom if ever in NF. It appears the current head of Mythic spends a considerable period of his game play in the BGs as well. I think there will be some sort of BG, hopefully more like DAoC's in CU for the n00b/l0wbie to free of griefers. Last project that MJ was involved in with Mythic was WAR. War had a tier RVR system that prevented griefing of n00bs by the high level guys. No traditional levels in CU? There is still going to be a difference between the seasoned and well outfitted veteran vs the n00b that can not be properly ballanced without gimping the game.
What would be really cool if there are multi-"server" BGs. I can think of all types of interesting events CSE could be running both for amusement of the players as well as a promotional tool for marketing CU which population of a multi-server BGs could support. Throw in some real world and virtual world prizes, "helmet-Cam" (or maybe god-view cam) on the previous hour's top RP earner tied into CSE marketing promotion and could be good times for players and for CSE's bottomline.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall. Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Bgs take players from the open world mass population and put them into smaller instanced conflicts, now does that not take away from the main population?
Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall. Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Originally posted by XobdnasBgs take players from the open world mass population and put them into smaller instanced conflicts, now does that not take away from the main population?
Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.
No, it really doesnt. The economy is entirely player based and housing isnt instanced...
It takes them out of the primary RVR scene, that is the complaint of BGs by some. I would be shocked to hear that MJ would do an instanced BG knowing full well how well his zone based DAoC BGs are loved. Now he could do a morph of any too high experienced character wandering into the zone like the amusing chicken effect in WAR.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall. Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
The ORvR world would be empty.. It would turn into sit in town and queue.. And people are going to come in here and say "No it wouldn't", but it has been proven time after time already.. They say, "Balance the rewards", what by giving no reward for battlegrounds? Why then even put them in the game? If they serve no purpose in the grand scheme of an epic factional conquest then I don't think they even matter.
Now say, if the battleground results directly influenced ownership of certain ORvR perks, then perhaps it could add to the flavor of true factional conquest.. Anything else and it's just a reason and excuse why not to ORvR and then comes the forum speeches about how everyone needs a number associated with their skill level.. And how gear needs to be rated... Tournament brackets and.. The rest is history my friends..
Originally posted by XobdnasBgs take players from the open world mass population and put them into smaller instanced conflicts, now does that not take away from the main population?
Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.
No, it really doesnt. The economy is entirely player based and housing isnt instanced...
As a counter to your stance that BG's take away from the base population, yes, it really does.
It is asanine to continue with the same point that BG's will mysteriously damage RvR in some way. It was never an issue in DAoC. It is a fictitious creation that is not based on historical fact. For some reason, the No crowd have made a non-issue into their standard to rally around. Did you guys even play DAoC? BG's had ZERO impact on the endgame RvR scene, and were a great source of entertainment for a large portion of the population. People paid their subscriptions (read: financially supported DAoC) just to take part in the BG scene.
The ORvR world would be empty.. It would turn into sit in town and queue.. And people are going to come in here and say "No it wouldn't", but it has been proven time after time already..
Did you even play DAoC? Because your statement is so far out in left field in relation to what actually happened that I can not draw any other conclusion.
why is everyone assuming there are no levels? Mark said not traditional leveling!! This could mean a ton of things.
also, if there are no levels the difference between a newly created toon and someone playing two years is not gonna be that great. Or else you would have no chance jumping into the fire!
MJ quote:
"...we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU. We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."
I like the sound of this, and it would not make any sense to have "levels" in the traditional sense. Plenty of progression/disparity can be achieved through stats/styles/abilities/equipment.
If it is like this what really is going to differentiate a toon 3 years played and a newly created one?
Actually sounds a bit like a magic trick, and I'll be very interested to see how they pull this off. I recall Thidranki used to be levels 17-24 and few people playing combat characters would go there until they were at least level 20 because the level disparity was too great to overcome. (or at the very least, very unpleasant)
Even in end game RVR, a level "51" (RR Lvl 5) would have a significant advantage over the newer player (but not insurmoutable) but that doesn't seem like enough of a progression curve for a 2 or 3 year experience.
The idea sounds good on paper, but I'm really curious how this will be accomplished.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm okay with Battlegrounds provided that the rewards are not better than what would be received in open world RvR. For a while this was Warhammer's problem after all. They should serve as an introduce to things, whilst also being a fun incentive for people who only have a lunch break or an hour to play. Open RvR should still provide superior rewards however.
camelot-rp.enjin.com - A hub for roleplayers in Camelot Unchained!
Thidranki was never 17 - 24. It was 20 - 24. The most someone would con was red. A 24 would be purple to a level 17.
With that aside I get the feeling most of the people saying no have this misconception that DAoC BG's were instanced, they were not. And most regular BG's players would cancel their subs rather than be forced to play in 50 RvR.
Nope, no battlegrounds please. With no levels in the game, there will be no need to separate the low levels from the higher levels.
I hate instancing anyway. Splitting people up into small instanced areas would do nothing at all for the community feel that MJ wants to create.
Basically, newer players will die - a LOT - and hone their skills as they do it. And eventually they won't be newer players anymore, they will have built their skills and become the very people they feared a couple of months back, just as it should be .
1) Battlegrounds don't have to be instanced (see DAoC).
2) Can you name one game (with progression) that forces the newbies to fight against veterans on their first day?
1) No they don't you're right, but they DO take people away from the main RvR and separate them into a battleground.
2) I can't ,but then you're assuming that this game will be like all other games, aren't you? Read MJ's posts. He wants newbies in doing RvR from day 1. Not battlegrounds, not pve.. RvR.
Yes, battlegrounds were very popular in DaoC. That's because it was a levelling game and low levels could not hope to participate effectively in the main RvR. This will not be a levelling game. There is no point to battlegrounds in CU.
Bgs take players from the open world mass population and put them into smaller instanced conflicts, now does that not take away from the main population?
Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.
Some crafting and the safe zone housing yes, but gathering materials and especially building structures in the "frontiers" isn't detracting at all.. it's adding support structures for different playstyles in big boy rvr. Besides, having crafting take away from rvr isn't an excuse to add bgs to do the same. Like I said, if there is a large power gap then I don't see an issue with it. If there isn't then we don't need them. I liked bgs in daoc, but there was a need for them there... and we don't know if we'll need them here.
Taking away population is an issue, it's not a major one when the game starts, but it will come back to haunt the game as it dies.
The way I'm understanding the snippets we've had, if crafters are building outposts then they're going to need the fighters to protect them while they do it. Crafters and fighters will need each other, all the time.
There will be hundreds of players per realm in the main frontiers. There's nothing to worry about when it comes to taking players away from that. It never was an issue with DAOC's BGs and it won't be in CU. For any major realm offensive in the main frontiers, there will be more than enough players around to take part in it. You won't fail to take a keep because a few dozen people are playing in Molvik. It just doesn't work like that.
Besides many of the people who spend a lot of time in DAOC's BGs don't like going to the frontiers because they don't have the time needed to form a balanced group, they don't like the size and complexity of the main frontier, or for any number of other reasons. If the BGs didn't exist, these players would just cancel. Having a BG in CU gives them a place to play in the game and earns CSE their subscription dollars and also is fun for players who will play in the main frontiers but who may want a break from them once in a while.
My assumption is there will be a strong progression system that will be like DAOC's realm abilities although named differently. This won't be as bad as PvP gear stats in games such as SWTOR where players with high values of the PvP stat are basically unkillable and destroy people without it. But it will make a difference. So there will be a good reason for brand new toons to want to play in a separate area with other low ranked toons until they get the hang of their class and have gained the first few ranks.
If the battlegrounds are designed as a place where 8vs8s can fight without being bothered about the adds and zergs, I can see a place for them. Personally, I prefer zerging or RvRing rather than the 8vs8 game and there doubt I will spend much time in them, but if BGs can fill a role for 8vs8s then go for it.
Comments
Thank you for this. I think too many people automatically lump DAoC BG's in with the rest. There is a HUGE difference.And your not playing tag or planting a bomb!
why is everyone assuming there are no levels? Mark said not traditional leveling!! This could mean a ton of things.
also, if there are no levels the difference between a newly created toon and someone playing two years is not gonna be that great. Or else you would have no chance jumping into the fire!
MJ quote:
"...we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU. We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."
I like the sound of this, and it would not make any sense to have "levels" in the traditional sense. Plenty of progression/disparity can be achieved through stats/styles/abilities/equipment.
No BGs.
RvR should be one big playground for all levels, so no need to disperse people in some playground miniRvR zones.
Having a system to level in RvR would be defied by having some BG zones where people level differently or play differently than in real RvR.
***
For the I-wanna-insta-action, I-don't-wanna-wait crowd:
"But but but.... I don't want to eat dirt 1, 2 or 3 months in big boy RvR until I reach the highest level and be able to "compete", I want insta action!!"
Well, this seems to be a wrong game for that.
Birger, Galahad, Healer
Midgard forever
Your "argument" against BG's doesn't make sense, and you are coming off as elitist and patronizing.
The game isn't out, and a lot of details are still floating around in the air. MJ probably has more scribbled notes lying haphazardly across his desk than anything concrete, and you are already telling people what the game is going to be like and if they don't like it then to go elsewhere? Nice.
BG's in DAoC did not split the population. It was never an issue and not one community thread was made on it to cause heated debate amongst the players. Level 50 RvR hummed along just fine with dedicated people participating in it. People who wanted to RvR but did not want to join the lvl 50 scene had another option: the BG's. It was not a divisive distraction. Level 50 RvR populations did not suffer from people funneling en masse to Thid, leaving the frontier keeps and relics undefended. Thinking that there was impact of one against another is absolutely ridiculous, and is only a construct here in this thread by an irrational few trying to back up their personal opinions.
Poll would be nice.
Loved BG's, definitely in favour.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Nope, no battlegrounds please. With no levels in the game, there will be no need to separate the low levels from the higher levels.
I hate instancing anyway. Splitting people up into small instanced areas would do nothing at all for the community feel that MJ wants to create.
Basically, newer players will die - a LOT - and hone their skills as they do it. And eventually they won't be newer players anymore, they will have built their skills and become the very people they feared a couple of months back, just as it should be .
The way I look at it, when DAOC first came out, and epic gear/df gear was available, we all pretty much had that and was the best you could get at that time. So basically everyone was on the same level of gear. Now we all had similar gear, we all we re level 50. So in CU, if we start at RR1L0, all have starter gear. Why have BGs. Where would they fit in.
For newer people, just get used to dieing from time to time. Or better yet, join a guild. I remember going out into Mid frontier and defending Fens, at level 38, as a RR was happening. My guild actually kept me alive most of the time.
I just don t see where they re needed or fit in.
DAoC had it right. If they have BGs it should be for leveling and no max level BGs.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
1) Battlegrounds don't have to be instanced (see DAoC).
2) Can you name one game (with progression) that forces the newbies to fight against veterans on their first day?
If it is like this what really is going to differentiate a toon 3 years played and a newly created one?
Absolutely for a BG in CU. I typically only play in DAoC BGs, seldom if ever in NF. It appears the current head of Mythic spends a considerable period of his game play in the BGs as well. I think there will be some sort of BG, hopefully more like DAoC's in CU for the n00b/l0wbie to free of griefers. Last project that MJ was involved in with Mythic was WAR. War had a tier RVR system that prevented griefing of n00bs by the high level guys. No traditional levels in CU? There is still going to be a difference between the seasoned and well outfitted veteran vs the n00b that can not be properly ballanced without gimping the game.
What would be really cool if there are multi-"server" BGs. I can think of all types of interesting events CSE could be running both for amusement of the players as well as a promotional tool for marketing CU which population of a multi-server BGs could support. Throw in some real world and virtual world prizes, "helmet-Cam" (or maybe god-view cam) on the previous hour's top RP earner tied into CSE marketing promotion and could be good times for players and for CSE's bottomline.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
It takes them out of the primary RVR scene, that is the complaint of BGs by some. I would be shocked to hear that MJ would do an instanced BG knowing full well how well his zone based DAoC BGs are loved. Now he could do a morph of any too high experienced character wandering into the zone like the amusing chicken effect in WAR.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
The ORvR world would be empty.. It would turn into sit in town and queue.. And people are going to come in here and say "No it wouldn't", but it has been proven time after time already.. They say, "Balance the rewards", what by giving no reward for battlegrounds? Why then even put them in the game? If they serve no purpose in the grand scheme of an epic factional conquest then I don't think they even matter.
Now say, if the battleground results directly influenced ownership of certain ORvR perks, then perhaps it could add to the flavor of true factional conquest.. Anything else and it's just a reason and excuse why not to ORvR and then comes the forum speeches about how everyone needs a number associated with their skill level.. And how gear needs to be rated... Tournament brackets and.. The rest is history my friends..
As a counter to your stance that BG's take away from the base population, yes, it really does.
It is asanine to continue with the same point that BG's will mysteriously damage RvR in some way. It was never an issue in DAoC. It is a fictitious creation that is not based on historical fact. For some reason, the No crowd have made a non-issue into their standard to rally around. Did you guys even play DAoC? BG's had ZERO impact on the endgame RvR scene, and were a great source of entertainment for a large portion of the population. People paid their subscriptions (read: financially supported DAoC) just to take part in the BG scene.
Did you even play DAoC? Because your statement is so far out in left field in relation to what actually happened that I can not draw any other conclusion.
Actually sounds a bit like a magic trick, and I'll be very interested to see how they pull this off. I recall Thidranki used to be levels 17-24 and few people playing combat characters would go there until they were at least level 20 because the level disparity was too great to overcome. (or at the very least, very unpleasant)
Even in end game RVR, a level "51" (RR Lvl 5) would have a significant advantage over the newer player (but not insurmoutable) but that doesn't seem like enough of a progression curve for a 2 or 3 year experience.
The idea sounds good on paper, but I'm really curious how this will be accomplished.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
camelot-rp.enjin.com - A hub for roleplayers in Camelot Unchained!
With that aside I get the feeling most of the people saying no have this misconception that DAoC BG's were instanced, they were not. And most regular BG's players would cancel their subs rather than be forced to play in 50 RvR.
1) No they don't you're right, but they DO take people away from the main RvR and separate them into a battleground.
2) I can't ,but then you're assuming that this game will be like all other games, aren't you? Read MJ's posts. He wants newbies in doing RvR from day 1. Not battlegrounds, not pve.. RvR.
Yes, battlegrounds were very popular in DaoC. That's because it was a levelling game and low levels could not hope to participate effectively in the main RvR. This will not be a levelling game. There is no point to battlegrounds in CU.
Some crafting and the safe zone housing yes, but gathering materials and especially building structures in the "frontiers" isn't detracting at all.. it's adding support structures for different playstyles in big boy rvr. Besides, having crafting take away from rvr isn't an excuse to add bgs to do the same. Like I said, if there is a large power gap then I don't see an issue with it. If there isn't then we don't need them. I liked bgs in daoc, but there was a need for them there... and we don't know if we'll need them here.
Taking away population is an issue, it's not a major one when the game starts, but it will come back to haunt the game as it dies.
The way I'm understanding the snippets we've had, if crafters are building outposts then they're going to need the fighters to protect them while they do it. Crafters and fighters will need each other, all the time.
There will be hundreds of players per realm in the main frontiers. There's nothing to worry about when it comes to taking players away from that. It never was an issue with DAOC's BGs and it won't be in CU. For any major realm offensive in the main frontiers, there will be more than enough players around to take part in it. You won't fail to take a keep because a few dozen people are playing in Molvik. It just doesn't work like that.
Besides many of the people who spend a lot of time in DAOC's BGs don't like going to the frontiers because they don't have the time needed to form a balanced group, they don't like the size and complexity of the main frontier, or for any number of other reasons. If the BGs didn't exist, these players would just cancel. Having a BG in CU gives them a place to play in the game and earns CSE their subscription dollars and also is fun for players who will play in the main frontiers but who may want a break from them once in a while.
My assumption is there will be a strong progression system that will be like DAOC's realm abilities although named differently. This won't be as bad as PvP gear stats in games such as SWTOR where players with high values of the PvP stat are basically unkillable and destroy people without it. But it will make a difference. So there will be a good reason for brand new toons to want to play in a separate area with other low ranked toons until they get the hang of their class and have gained the first few ranks.
tldr: yes have a DAOC-style BG
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