Crowd Control is a four letter word

belatucadros · March 2013

CC in DAOC became a massive problem in the eyes of many.

However it has a wonderful strategic impact, especially vs a zerg.

What are everyone's thoughts?

My biggest concern is stun. Pretty much any other form of crowd control is a nuisance, but "stun nuke nuke" is a thing of nightmares.

Forgive my infographic here, my tools are limited ;

I think with appropriate resist and mitigation efforts, CC can play an important - yet balanced - role in combat.

Plastic-Metal · March 2013

Pretty visuals and it's pretty spot on.

There's nothing worse than being completely unable to move your character due to an overused mechanic like stun. At least the minute long mesmerize people complain about breaks on damage. All other forms of CC are easily balanced through game mechanics or abilities like purge that remove negative side effects.

This post gets a +1 from me.

RealLifeGobbo · March 2013

No, I actually like the graphic, it's pretty spot on.

Call me crazy (crazy!), but I believe that every form of CC should be unbreakable by using an ability like Purge.

Just my 2 cents.

Ziftylrhavic · March 2013

Just a little rectification, casted snare are breakable, except a few ones (i know the warlock one isn't breakable, and maybe there is another one).

The stun may be frustrating, but it doesn't last long so if there is immunity it's not as much a problem. Especially in CU where the Time To Kill will be longer, to make the fights last in order to have a tactical game as MJ said he wanted.

MasahikoKobe · March 2013

Originally posted by belatucadros
CC in DAOC became a massive problem in the eyes of many.

However it has a wonderful strategic impact, especially vs a zerg.

What are everyone's thoughts?

My biggest concern is stun. Pretty much any other form of crowd control is a nuisance, but "stun nuke nuke" is a thing of nightmares.

Forgive my infographic here, my tools are limited ;

I think with appropriate resist and mitigation efforts, CC can play an important - yet balanced - role in combat.

At the time of DAoC i would say that CC was the worst thing ever. Slowly as i played otherr games with big world fights, i found my self wanting thie big CCs of daoc so that fights could eb and flow better.

Im not looking for the 9s melee stuns of the past, but i think that daoc got to the right place with there resists and immunites. CC in recent games has been relagated to almost worthless in most cent games where theres hard caps on AOE or CC trains where you go from one from to another without the ability to act.

belatucadros · March 2013

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Pretty visuals and it's pretty spot on.

There's nothing worse than being completely unable to move your character due to an overused mechanic like stun. At least the minute long mesmerize people complain about breaks on damage. All other forms of CC are easily balanced through game mechanics or abilities like purge that remove negative side effects.

This post gets a +1 from me.

I liked that purge existed, and being an RA was nice at first but more and more I felt like certain classes should have just 'had' it.

Stoicism was a nice move, but I'd like to see it 'grow' with the character - like determination, but innate instead of RR purchased.

I'd also like to see it more geared to zerg fighting/situational awareness. Something like the more targets in the AE, the longer it lasts.(Or the more targets near the original target, the larger the AE....) This also means if I happen to cast it on a solo/small group I'm not going to get as much out of it.

edit: Yes, my bad, casted snare was breakable. I was thinking from a melee perspective. There was also the backend problem where root was a 99%snare and the immunities overlapped.

fs23otm · March 2013

CC for PVP and CC for PVE need to be different mechanics.

Ie Stun in PVE, stuns the mobs rendering it useless.

In PVP, Stun should do something like change up your movement keys.

Blinds should black you screen.

Mez should blur your screen

Snares are good as are slowing movement.

Roots are also fine, as is.

Other things could block out specific types of abilities...like hemmorhage ability that stops healing...weaken lowers you damage etc....

Set_in_Ink · March 2013

I played a stun, nuke, nuke class (albeit in the form of Mentalism and Mana Mentalists), and I can say that I would much prefer there to be no stuns at all in the game. Increase the potential for the other forms of CC. Roots can prevent movement allowing you to position yourself in accordance to the enemy, so long as they are not able to turn in the root, while still allowing the affected player to fight back. Snares help prevent melee from getting on your healers/casters. Mez is there for when you absolutely need the enemy to not attack you. All of those are breakable with damage; there is no place for stuns in a game.

Edit: And utility CC is awesome in the right hands, and I hope it plays a larger role in CU.

Drakonal · March 2013

In the past while playing DAoC i would personally complain about certain forms of CC.

But after playing a few other games CC from DAoC is what i was missing the most in some of the pvp experiences i've had in the past.

CC is just part of the RvR game in my opinion, not having enough or having too much is the fine line that has to be drawn clearly from the word go.

RealLifeGobbo · March 2013

Originally posted by fs23otm
CC for PVP and CC for PVE need to be different mechanics.

Ie Stun in PVE, stuns the mobs rendering it useless.

In PVP, Stun should do something like change up your movement keys.

Blinds should black you screen.

Mez should blur your screen

Snares are good as are slowing movement.

Roots are also fine, as is.

Other things could block out specific types of abilities...like hemmorhage ability that stops healing...weaken lowers you damage etc....

I do agree, some visual effects for the different types could help out the immersion aspect of the game.

I would like to add that, roots could show, say vines wrapping on the sides of your monitor.

Odaman · March 2013

CC in daoc was good, but I have to agree... stun durations were a bit on the long side (up to 11 seconds, but 9s being the norm). I think my favorite part of it was the way that root,melee snares, and casted snares interacted with each other to give immunities etc. Snares breaking on damage was also the best way i've seen it done in a game. Honestly it's the soft cc (utility) that really needs to be carefully considered because that in many cases ends up being the most broken of them all. See warhammers disorient on release (yay 3s cast time on instant melee styles) or shattered limbs cd increase.

waynejr2 · March 2013

CC in DOAC was great and I would love that to return to CU. Those who get their panties in a bunch over it are great targets for CC! Makes me laugh for real when people get upset over it.

BowbowDAoC · March 2013

I always thought that Stun had its place in mmos, but i d leave it only to the tanks with i.e. a shield slam, or special attack with blunt weapons.

Just my 2 cents.

sweetdigs · March 2013

I would like to see some more creative CC. Not a big fan of stuns/mezzes.

How about a mana drain ability, that dampens the damage of casters in the area of effect or a single target and any spell cast by that target(s) transfers a portion of the casting cost to the mana drain caster.

Or a mana feedback ability, that instead of draining the mana results in damage to any target(s) that attempt to cast a spell in the next (x) seconds. They can still cast the spell, but they'll suffer damage if they do so.

Short duration silence is another decent option. Much better than stunning a caster - as the caster can still move and engage in other abilities (may even casters can use wands/staves in this game and hurl magical projectiles from the wand similar to a bow).

Then, you could have abilities that counter physical damage types. Blind - makes their screen go dark briefly or just reduces their chance to hit. Snare/mud - slows their movement. Weakness - greatly reduces the physical damage of the target for a short period of time. You could have a cripple attack that reduces the damage of your target. You could have a daze attack that prevents the caster you hit with an arrow or blow either from being able to cast at all or reduces the effectiveness of cast spells.

How about being able to throw up flame walls? Ice slicks? Scouts/rogues to drop traps. Etc etc.

I also like the idea of being able to put short-duration damage shields around certain characters on your team.

Basically I think there is so much more potential depth in the area of "CC" than just roots/snares/mez/stuns. I think the best game would not have any "stuns" or "mezzes" which remove the character entirely from being able to do anything. Better to debuff/snare, whether the ability/spell is single target or AE.

And then there are all the new buildings that could potentially be built in cities, forts, or just around the world at strategic locations. Magic dampeners, magic boosters, towers that strengthen nearby troops, towers that weaken, towers that speed or slow movement in the area.

How about towers that cast a haze around the area to make it more difficult to hit or reduce sight in the area which would really make things crazy and result in mostly melee or close ranged combat.

Wazluk · March 2013

Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo
Originally posted by fs23otm
CC for PVP and CC for PVE need to be different mechanics.

Ie Stun in PVE, stuns the mobs rendering it useless.

In PVP, Stun should do something like change up your movement keys.

Blinds should black you screen.

Mez should blur your screen

Snares are good as are slowing movement.

Roots are also fine, as is.

Other things could block out specific types of abilities...like hemmorhage ability that stops healing...weaken lowers you damage etc....

I do agree, some visual effects for the different types could help out the immersion aspect of the game.

I would like to add that, roots could show, say vines wrapping on the sides of your monitor.

This would be nice, IF(<---big if) the spell effects don't change depending on graphic levels. Because then some group would just turn down/off graphic effect to win.

It also needs to blank out all UI, so healers can't see HP and heal thru black or white CC screen. Then again voicechats "I need heals", hit F1-F12 to target that member, and heal would also be an issue.

zieki · March 2013

Originally posted by Wazluk
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo
Originally posted by fs23otm
CC for PVP and CC for PVE need to be different mechanics.

Ie Stun in PVE, stuns the mobs rendering it useless.

In PVP, Stun should do something like change up your movement keys.

Blinds should black you screen.

Mez should blur your screen

Snares are good as are slowing movement.

Roots are also fine, as is.

Other things could block out specific types of abilities...like hemmorhage ability that stops healing...weaken lowers you damage etc....

I do agree, some visual effects for the different types could help out the immersion aspect of the game.

I would like to add that, roots could show, say vines wrapping on the sides of your monitor.

This would be nice, IF(<---big if) the spell effects don't change depending on graphic levels. Because then some group would just turn down/off graphic effect to win.

I agree that this would be extremely interesting, but can also see it being super annoying. Like anything I guess it comes down to how it's implemented. However, in this case, I would think that Blind would probably be the most powerful of this CCs...

belatucadros · March 2013

I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

BowbowDAoC · March 2013

i also once suggested a few other spells for CC that could be good.

- Blindess : make target's screen go black for short period of time (new CC spell ?)

- Web : kind of AoE or single target CC that lowers movements and the "physical" stats

- Song of slow motion : kinda like a speed debuff , but would slow the ennemy's speed within a certain radius

- Song of exhaustion : lower (or drain) the ennemy's endurance regeneration within a certain radius

- Song of dumbness : lower (or drain) the ennemy's mana regeneration within a certain radius

- Water : some kind of AoE CC that would create a small amount of water to appear around the target or ground target, causing slower movement within that radius.

There could obviously be some variance to those too (i.e. the songs, but i like the concept too). But these could be some nice forms of CC could fit well in CU.

RealLifeGobbo · March 2013

Originally posted by Wazluk
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo
Originally posted by fs23otm
CC for PVP and CC for PVE need to be different mechanics.

Ie Stun in PVE, stuns the mobs rendering it useless.

In PVP, Stun should do something like change up your movement keys.

Blinds should black you screen.

Mez should blur your screen

Snares are good as are slowing movement.

Roots are also fine, as is.

Other things could block out specific types of abilities...like hemmorhage ability that stops healing...weaken lowers you damage etc....

I do agree, some visual effects for the different types could help out the immersion aspect of the game.

I would like to add that, roots could show, say vines wrapping on the sides of your monitor.

This would be nice, IF(<---big if) the spell effects don't change depending on graphic levels. Because then some group would just turn down/off graphic effect to win.

It also needs to blank out all UI, so healers can't see HP and heal thru black or white CC screen. Then again voicechats "I need heals", hit F1-F12 to target that member, and heal would also be an issue.

Good point!

Wazluk · March 2013

Originally posted by belatucadros
I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

Yeah, if I'm playing in the dark, a blind white screen effects will last well after it wear off ingame... lol

sweetdigs · March 2013

Originally posted by belatucadros
I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

Blind was in EQ1. Used to be a lot of fun getting blinded by some mobs (hi Estate of Unrest!) or other players on the PVP servers. Didn't last long and could be dispelled.

Perhaps when you get blinded in CU, it would keep the UI in place and just remove your vision, so that a healer would still be able to see health bars of grouped allies, but as far as using AOE and targeted (directional or cone area) spells, you would be just guessing at the proper area. Also wouldn't want it to be lengthy in duration. But at least if you knew you had a melee type closing in on you, you could keep moving and hopefully avoid getting pounded.

Niix_Ozek · March 2013

Oh god no, unless you can turn it off. There are plenty of ways you can provide spell effects to see whats going on, not to mention unable to move your character or movement effected.

ZzzZzz above head , and roots wrapping you like daoc were enough, keep them simple and small, anything mentioned about blacking your screen, god no ... god ... no.

BowbowDAoC · March 2013

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
i also once suggested a few other spells for CC that could be good.

- Blindess : make target's screen go black for short period of time (new CC spell ?)

- Web : kind of AoE or single target CC that lowers movements and the "physical" stats

- Song of slow motion : kinda like a speed debuff , but would slow the ennemy's speed within a certain radius

- Song of exhaustion : lower (or drain) the ennemy's endurance regeneration within a certain radius

- Song of dumbness : lower (or drain) the ennemy's mana regeneration within a certain radius

- Water : some kind of AoE CC that would create a small amount of water to appear around the target or ground target, causing slower movement within that radius.

There could obviously be some variance to those too (i.e. the songs, but i like the concept too). But these could be some nice forms of CC could fit well in CU.

- neutralise enhancements : neutralising all the bonuses given from all equipment of an ennemy

- Stat swap : short duration spell that would make stats from target and caster to switch; a kind of "debuff" spell...could be fun to see a troll warrior stuck with an elf wizard's stats for 1 minute

Edit : added 2 ideas i forgot at first

Edit #2 : Crap, chose quote instead ot edit. sorry for double post

Oldskoo · March 2013

Originally posted by sweetdigs
Originally posted by belatucadros
I think anything that actually interferes with your screen would both be more graphically challenging and more frustrating than the actual act of being stuck there.

Blind was in EQ1. Used to be a lot of fun getting blinded by some mobs (hi Estate of Unrest!) or other players on the PVP servers. Didn't last long and could be dispelled.

Perhaps when you get blinded in CU, it would keep the UI in place and just remove your vision, so that a healer would still be able to see health bars of grouped allies, but as far as using AOE and targeted (directional or cone area) spells, you would be just guessing at the proper area. Also wouldn't want it to be lengthy in duration. But at least if you knew you had a melee type closing in on you, you could keep moving and hopefully avoid getting pounded.

I'm all for game mechanics like this. The timer's on these effects need to be pretty short but I absolutley love game design that emulates the actual impact these type of spells or conditions i.e. blindness - blackness. Many old school DnD spells would be a lot of fun as well (Globe of darkness, grease, Wall line of spells, the list goes on). Chaos, panic, and uncertainty on the battlefield (as well as viable counters/reflects) would be things I'd love to see - I don't have a problem with CC as long as the timer's aren't too long and, if they are a bit longer in duration, it is something the enemy must focus on to maitain (effectively taking him out of the fight as well). CC and similar things are vital in games like this. Otherwise it boils down to simply which team has numbers more often than not.

Set_in_Ink · March 2013

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Oh god no, unless you can turn it off. There are plenty of ways you can provide spell effects to see whats going on, not to mention unable to move your character or movement effected.

ZzzZzz above head , and roots wrapping you like daoc were enough, keep them simple and small, anything mentioned about blacking your screen, god no ... god ... no.

Agree 110%. Keep it simple.

RealLifeGobbo · March 2013

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
i also once suggested a few other spells for CC that could be good.

- Blindess : make target's screen go black for short period of time (new CC spell ?)

- Web : kind of AoE or single target CC that lowers movements and the "physical" stats

- Song of slow motion : kinda like a speed debuff , but would slow the ennemy's speed within a certain radius

- Song of exhaustion : lower (or drain) the ennemy's endurance regeneration within a certain radius

- Song of dumbness : lower (or drain) the ennemy's mana regeneration within a certain radius

- Water : some kind of AoE CC that would create a small amount of water to appear around the target or ground target, causing slower movement within that radius.

There could obviously be some variance to those too (i.e. the songs, but i like the concept too). But these could be some nice forms of CC could fit well in CU.

- neutralise enhancements : neutralising all the bonuses given from all equipment of an ennemy

- Stat swap : short duration spell that would make stats from target and caster to switch; a kind of "debuff" spell...could be fun to see a troll warrior stuck with an elf wizard's stats for 1 minute

Edit : added 2 ideas i forgot at first

Edit #2 : Crap, chose quote instead ot edit. sorry for double post

I like it! Instead of dumbness (which is funny BTW), I would opt for a different word... say Torpor. Fun stuff though.

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Crowd Control is a four letter word

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