How zenimax want to prevent zergs in Alliance vs Alliance ?

bartike · March 2013

Can somebody tell me, how they want to prevent zergs in AvA ? For example, look at GW2 WvW, its only zerg vs zerg, if youre going there to play solo, you always end up in big zerg destroying castle or fighting for hour with another zerg its pretty sad, and im really afraid how they want to stop this in AvA.

Whats Zerg ?

Zerg is definition used in MMOs to describe the tactic of rushing massive number of players through a quest, instance, dungeon, pvp etc. to avoid as much combat as possible and achieve completion as quickly as possible.

Sovrath · March 2013

There are a variety fo choke points for smaller groups (solo?) to stave off larger forces.

Other than that I've got nothing.

Apraxis · March 2013

Originally posted by bartike
Can somebody tell me, how they want to prevent zergs in AvA ? For example, look at GW2 WvW, its only zerg vs zerg, if youre going there to play solo, you always end up in big zerg destroying castle or fighting for hour with another zerg its pretty sad, and im really afraid how they want to stop this in AvA.

Whats Zerg ?

Zerg is definition used in MMOs to describe the tactic of rushing massive number of players through a quest, instance, dungeon, pvp etc. to avoid as much combat as possible and achieve completion as quickly as possible.

Most probably not at all. In games like that you will always have zergs. And it is ok to some degree, as long as other ways of playing is possible, exists and is not in huge disadvantage combined with a progression system.

The problem with GW2 is, that the maps are somewhat to small, they are too filled with things(keeps, camps), and you see every fight on the map.

DAoC, especially pre frontiers you got your daily 24/7 zerg in emain macha, but albeit from emain and some relic zergs here and there you got a lot of territory(Albion and Midgard borderland usually) for more small scale pvp. And beside of that the stealther war (1vs1 up to smaller packs 1-4vs1-4 and so on)

Apraxis · March 2013

Originally posted by Sovrath
There are a variety fo choke points for smaller groups (solo?) to stave off larger forces.

Other than that I've got nothing.

choke points are not a features to prevent zergs, they usually promote zerg fests. Some player camp there on both sides... standing zerg.. and it becomes usually bigger and bigger on both sides.. more or less emain macha all over again.

Sovrath · March 2013

Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by Sovrath
There are a variety fo choke points for smaller groups (solo?) to stave off larger forces.

Other than that I've got nothing.

choke points are not a features to prevent zergs, they usually promote zerg fests. Some player camp there on both sides... standing zerg.. and it becomes usually bigger and bigger on both sides.. more or less emain macha all over again.

It's the only thing they have mentioned and mentioned it precisely in the context he brought up.

Whether you like it or not is immaterial.

He asked and I told him.

"Other than that I've got nothing".

MaxJac · March 2013

Prevent zergs? I like the zergs. The trick is to make it so that zergs can be fought against. If done right, when a larger enemy is coming then they will likely win most of the time but not always. Warhammer Online did a lot of things wrong but there was a point in its history where a small group that knew what they were doing could hold off a much larger PUG. I suspect this can still be done in WAR but probably only because the renown rank gap is so large once you hit 40.

I am a cynic that tries to remain optimistic, so I will continue to hope on the outside while inside the doom bells aren't even being rung anymore because I killed the bell ringer long ago for the never ending racket.

Hycoo · March 2013

I am not very familiar with the WvW concept in GW2, or the reason why zergs happens on such a large scale there. But here is a list of things that might discourage zergs in ESO.

Each Alliance having several keeps. Splits the zerg. At the same time the zone is said to be pretty large (9 times bigger than a normal PvE zone, and larger than the oblivion version of the area).
Each keep having several buildings (like mills, stables, lumber camps etc) that supports their keep with resources (guards for example). To take a keep you would most likely have to take out these buildings first, which would split the zerg. Each building is said to need a small party to be taken over (against npc guards, not counting vs players defending that building)
There will be quests available in towns for solo and small groups to do. This will probably lead to skirmishes where solo players/groups of different alliances bump into eachother.
There will be public PvE dungeons that might lead to interesting scenarios.
They have learned from GW2's zergs in WvW and implemented mechanics that discourages it.

Now i am no expert in this matter so feel free to have a different opinion on any of the bulletpoints.

nerovipus32 · March 2013

Zerg is a term used by elitests that can't control everyone.

Sovrath · March 2013

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by Sovrath
There are a variety fo choke points for smaller groups (solo?) to stave off larger forces.

Other than that I've got nothing.

choke points are not a features to prevent zergs, they usually promote zerg fests. Some player camp there on both sides... standing zerg.. and it becomes usually bigger and bigger on both sides.. more or less emain macha all over again.

It's the only thing they have mentioned and mentioned it precisely in the context he brought up.

Whether you like it or not is immaterial.

He asked and I told him.

"Other than that I've got nothing".

ok I"ve got this now:

Open World PvP
This is a huge part of Elder Scrolls Online already, so I can talk about it more. The entire providence of Cyrodiil is devoted to Faction PvP. This can be done on a large scale and small scale. Based on the information Zenimax Online Studios (ZOS) has released, strategy will play an important role in this game.

Zerg-rushing with a massive group of people through a large part of the map will not be as effective in this game as it would be in others. Factions must guard and defend their captured keeps and resources, or lose them to other factions, draining their effectiveness in the providence. While a main army will probably be the most effective at taking the White-Gold Tower, it will also be necessary for smaller groups of players to stay at key keeps, keeping them from being taken and cutting off supply lines to the main army.

With this type of strategy being implemented throughout PvP, players will feel more engaged in the world than ever before, and even those loners or small groups of players can be effective in harassing supply lines, taking over outlying farms and resources and the like.

http://shadowedmare.com/pvp-in-the-elder-scrolls-online-making-a-powerhouse/

Lord.Bachus · March 2013

You cant prevent zergs in massive. PvP zones...

If you dont like zergs, better stick with instanced PvP

MaxJac · March 2013

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
You cant prevent zergs in massive. PvP zones...

If you dont like zergs, better stick with instanced PvP

Exactly. Disallow zerging and you disallow open PvP. I may not enjoy getting steamrolled but I cherish those few victories against overwhelming odds. Some of my fondest memories in Warhammer Online are being part of a well lead warband against hoards of enemies. It was always the warrior priests for some reason. I guess the Cult of Sigmar knows how to make them.

[Deleted User] · March 2013

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Nanfoodle · March 2013

I dont know if it was answered but they said they will make sure defending in AvA will be rewarded really well. So this will make people want to take a castle and then people who like to play D will feel its worth doing. Should be nice.

EDIT: Also if they add something like DAoC Darkness Falls then people will also work hard to keep that over just handing it back and forth.

vindir · March 2013

A Protoss Carrier will take care of a zerg ; P

Seriously though, you cannot stop the zerg mentaility in this type of AvA / RvR, however I think it may be possible to curb or dwindle zerg mass. This could be done by implementing

large trap like skills i.e zerg mass approaches a keep and then suddenly 1/3 of them fall into a hole or a snare and are incapable of helping for x amount of time. (so basically a personal cc skill but larger and longer).
Res cool downs or res points are another way - make it painful to die. Make it so it takes longer to get make into where the battle was happening. In other games I found it was too easy to get back to where the zerg mass fight was taking place, thus prolonging the zerg fight.
Make siege weapons a one or two hit type death and make them hard to aim. If they are really powerful (ie one hit you are dead) and hard to aim then smaller gorups of people will happen. If there is one large mass where you can just lob a catapult into it is easy then to hit somone. With smaller gorups this will be harder.

These are ideas. Not saying they are good ones, but simply ideas to help crub the zerg on zerg fight.

Qallidexz · March 2013

They're big on traps... With fighters having caltrops, mages runes, and rogues some sort of traps as well, I think trapping up choke-points, and ambushing opponents might be effective even against zergs, but, we'll see...

Maephisto · March 2013

Zergs are your friend.....

Nothing is more satisfying than taking out a group of players that outnumber you greatly. A mindless blob that likes getting hit by your sword. They also serve to give you alot of experience, loot and possibly realm points (whatever the TESO equivalent will be).

If you dont like zergs, then find a good pvp guild and run in smaller groups. I dont think there is anything you can do to "stop" them from being created though.

Iselin · March 2013

Man! Are scenario PvPers ever in for a surprise lol.

But back to the OP...that`s not a bad definition of Zerg, but if you look at it you`ll see that it has nothing to do with RvR. In RvR it`s not about àvoiding` its about overwhelming.

In the DAoC early days, I used to love the 1 minute AOE root with unlimited numbers my Theurgist had. I think my record freezing in one cast was somewhere north of 50 Nerfed later of course but still... superior numbers don`t always win the day.

Caliburn101 · March 2013

Originally posted by Hycoo
I am not very familiar with the WvW concept in GW2, or the reason why zergs happens on such a large scale there. But here is a list of things that might discourage zergs in ESO.

Each Alliance having several keeps. Splits the zerg. At the same time the zone is said to be pretty large (9 times bigger than a normal PvE zone, and larger than the oblivion version of the area).

Each keep having several buildings (like mills, stables, lumber camps etc) that supports their keep with resources (guards for example). To take a keep you would most likely have to take out these buildings first, which would split the zerg. Each building is said to need a small party to be taken over (against npc guards, not counting vs players defending that building)

There will be quests available in towns for solo and small groups to do. This will probably lead to skirmishes where solo players/groups of different alliances bump into eachother.

There will be public PvE dungeons that might lead to interesting scenarios.

They have learned from GW2's zergs in WvW and implemented mechanics that discourages it.

Now i am no expert in this matter so feel free to have a different opinion on any of the bulletpoints.

Having been in the GW2 zergfest myself - I have to tell you, unfortunately every single point your raise in your list (apart from the GW2 reference) is what GW2 had - and it was still 'zerg all the way'.

Caliburn101 · March 2013

To make zerging less useful is the way ahead;

One shot kill, slow to reload, hard to aim large area aoe seige weapons (trebuchet, catapults)

Slow to load long cone effect anti-personnel seige weapons ('arrow carts')

Gates which only seige weapons or many minutes worth of powerful spell damage can take out, and walls which only massive amounts of seige weapon damage can take out.

Boiling oil weapons which are effective and not easily targetted from below

Good LOS and extra range for people on walls against people below

Simultaneous takedown required on objectives that are far apart

'Live' supply chains required to maintain seiges - so some people always need to be guarding other areas

A timer on repopulation of NPC guards on all installations which can be 'taken', so the zerg cannot instantly move on or they risk an easy and sneaky take-back by the enemy as soon as they are out of sight

Just a few ideas.

azarhal · March 2013

Originally posted by Caliburn101
To make zerging less useful is the way ahead;

One shot kill, slow to reload, hard to aim large area aoe seige weapons (trebuchet, catapults)

Slow to load long cone effect anti-personnel seige weapons ('arrow carts')

Gates which only seige weapons or many minutes worth of powerful spell damage can take out, and walls which only massive amounts of seige weapon damage can take out.

Boiling oil weapons which are effective and not easily targetted from below

Good LOS and extra range for people on walls against people below

Simultaneous takedown required on objectives that are far apart

'Live' supply chains required to maintain seiges - so some people always need to be guarding other areas

A timer on repopulation of NPC guards on all installations which can be 'taken', so the zerg cannot instantly move on or they risk an easy and sneaky take-back by the enemy as soon as they are out of sight

Just a few ideas.

GW2 does all these things, although the seige weapons might not one-shot players. I never was on the receiving end of them.

Also, there isn't 24/24 zergs in GW2. I only see zerg when a enemy does a push (or we do a push) and that is how this type of PvP works. Taking a big castle take lots of players, which mean a "zerg".

Caliburn101 · March 2013

Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by Caliburn101
To make zerging less useful is the way ahead;

One shot kill, slow to reload, hard to aim large area aoe seige weapons (trebuchet, catapults)

Slow to load long cone effect anti-personnel seige weapons ('arrow carts')

Gates which only seige weapons or many minutes worth of powerful spell damage can take out, and walls which only massive amounts of seige weapon damage can take out.

Boiling oil weapons which are effective and not easily targetted from below

Good LOS and extra range for people on walls against people below

Simultaneous takedown required on objectives that are far apart

'Live' supply chains required to maintain seiges - so some people always need to be guarding other areas

A timer on repopulation of NPC guards on all installations which can be 'taken', so the zerg cannot instantly move on or they risk an easy and sneaky take-back by the enemy as soon as they are out of sight

Just a few ideas.

GW2 does all these things, although the seige weapons might not one-shot players. I never was on the receiving end of them.

Also, there isn't 24/24 zergs in GW2. I only see zerg when a enemy does a push (or we do a push) and that is how this type of PvP works. Taking a big castle take lots of players, which mean a "zerg".

No it doesn't...

Seige weapons are easy to target, lower damage and fast to reload.

Boiling oil is a joke - it is destroyed very fast and at a range where it cannot be used to attack back.

Weapons of all types can take down gates - you can, given long enough, stab a gate down with a knife...

Supply only applies to those seiged - not those seiging.

Guards repopulate immediately.

Simultaneous takedowns are not required...

GroovyFlower · March 2013

Originally posted by bartike
Can somebody tell me, how they want to prevent zergs in AvA ? For example, look at GW2 WvW, its only zerg vs zerg, if youre going there to play solo, you always end up in big zerg destroying castle or fighting for hour with another zerg its pretty sad, and im really afraid how they want to stop this in AvA.

Whats Zerg ?

Zerg is definition used in MMOs to describe the tactic of rushing massive number of players through a quest, instance, dungeon, pvp etc. to avoid as much combat as possible and achieve completion as quickly as possible.

So you avoid zerg never participate right?

WvWvW suppose to be huge server vs server vs server warfares what you thought it would be small groups doing there own thing lol.

tinuelle · March 2013

If i understand this right we are discussing how massive (zerg) can be avoided?

a highly skilled massive group should allways steamroll a leser skilled or equally skilled but fewer in numbers group.

Any mechanic in a game that lets a little group steamroll a large group either has way to op AoE or other unbalanced mechanisms, given that each groups players are of equal skill.

Personally I play Mmo's for their massiveness. If not i Could just play counterstrike.

Usually the zerg is a dominant tactic that steamrolls those of leser resources. And if u Get steamrolled, we'll we cant allow that?

azarhal · March 2013

Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by Caliburn101
To make zerging less useful is the way ahead;

One shot kill, slow to reload, hard to aim large area aoe seige weapons (trebuchet, catapults)

Slow to load long cone effect anti-personnel seige weapons ('arrow carts')

Gates which only seige weapons or many minutes worth of powerful spell damage can take out, and walls which only massive amounts of seige weapon damage can take out.

Boiling oil weapons which are effective and not easily targetted from below

Good LOS and extra range for people on walls against people below

Simultaneous takedown required on objectives that are far apart

'Live' supply chains required to maintain seiges - so some people always need to be guarding other areas

A timer on repopulation of NPC guards on all installations which can be 'taken', so the zerg cannot instantly move on or they risk an easy and sneaky take-back by the enemy as soon as they are out of sight

Just a few ideas.

GW2 does all these things, although the seige weapons might not one-shot players. I never was on the receiving end of them.

Also, there isn't 24/24 zergs in GW2. I only see zerg when a enemy does a push (or we do a push) and that is how this type of PvP works. Taking a big castle take lots of players, which mean a "zerg".

No it doesn't...

Seige weapons are easy to target, lower damage and fast to reload.

Boiling oil is a joke - it is destroyed very fast and at a range where it cannot be used to attack back.

Weapons of all types can take down gates - you can, given long enough, stab a gate down with a knife...

Supply only applies to those seiged - not those seiging.

Guards repopulate immediately.

Simultaneous takedowns are not required...

Last time I sieged a keep, I and a few others had to run to get resources to build/repair siege weapons. I call that a live supply chain. The fact that the enemies were too stupid or didn't care to stop us doesn't mean it's not required by the sieging party.

Guard don't repopulate immediately, they have a timer (3 minutes). Maybe you feel like it's too short? You might want to post that suggestion on the forums.

While weapon of all types can take down gates, you have to use siege weapons if you don't want to spend hours doing that. The point of the door taking time to take down is so the "owner" can mount a defence, not stop players from taking the place over if they didn't bring their charrzooka.

spladian · March 2013

Some reasons that people zerg.....

1) If your team has 100 players, and only one meaningful objective, where do you think all those players will congregate to?

2) There is usually an experienced leader of said 'zerg' who makes himself distinguishable. Newer players like guidance to learn the ropes, and will tend to follow a heard.

3)Tools to communicate objectives across multiple groups have never really existed in MMO's. Typing in the Zone channel is about all we've had to this point.

There's probably a few more, but these seem to be the ones that are never addressed which then manifest themselves game after game.

Thane · March 2013

i still think there is a simple fix:

unit collision + friendly fire.

next prob would be to fix the griefing then :P

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