Truste me, name recognition matters. In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin. If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him. Fun times.
Back on topic, I agree. WvW is something I hope CU avoids. I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update. Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed. WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR.
That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.
Who says it won't be a gang up on people type RvR? I think it most certainly will be, due to the open world nature!
1 vs 100 and 100 vs 1 are completely acceptable scenario's. It's a neverending war and your hand will not be held.
Ask anyone that played DAoC during the early years. This type of scenario created some truly EPIC battles.
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
Truste me, name recognition matters. In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin. If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him. Fun times.
Back on topic, I agree. WvW is something I hope CU avoids. I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update. Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed. WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR.
That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.
Who says it won't be a gang up on people type RvR? I think it most certainly will be, due to the open world nature!
1 vs 100 and 100 vs 1 are completely acceptable scenario's. It's a neverending war and your hand will not be held.
Ask anyone that played DAoC during the early years. This type of scenario created some truly EPIC battles.
gamers population was more mature then
now we ended with lots of kids that dont give a fk about honor and other important stuff
showing your name in pvp just gets you lots of pms swearing on your mother and family thats how it is these days
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2? There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2? There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.
and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2? There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.
and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?
haha so then just /ignore them. I was one of the most popular wizard in daoc and it was very rare that i got pmed with hate even tho everyone hated me from enemies.
There must be names / ranks like in daoc and deathspam
I hate GW 2 for not knowing who I'm killing. For the WvWvW that is changing people who I fight. This is bad, because you don't feel your character at all. You are not connected to enemies and not connected to fame of your character.
I disliked the significant RAs from DAOC's RvR progression.
I liked Warhammer's model where the rewards were nominal base stats and had diminishing marginal decay on value (until late in the game where they added the inverse purge, etc).
Not a fan of "must have RR5 for purge / SoS / IP / basic stuff you need to compete".
I like 'some' RvR progression, but I hate barriers to entry. I think the majority of the progression should be left as titles / aesthetics. I dislike it when RvR "progression" becomes synonymous with WoW grind.
Of course, player names and deathspam are mandatory. An integrated Dammaz Kron into the interface would be nice. Camelotherald is also essential.
Also, the primary bulk of point accrual ("RPs") should be from kills, not "objectives". Reward players for content (fighting, killing) and they will find where to explore their content. Let objectives be an [i]optional framework[/i] for the content (fighting, killing). If players want to use objectives, ok. If they don't, ok. As long as they're finding fights, kills, and deaths.
Knowing your enemies creates rivalry, which fuels competitive PvP games, and gives you a reason to play. Nameless red blobs like GW2 promotes a pseudo PvE experience where everyone is the same and is blandly homogenized. If you're worried about a few people /whispering you to talk a little shit grow up. You are the problem of the increasing nanny state of society where everyone wins through participation and noone is allowed to stand above ..... you are the reason everything is so damn boring and homogenized.
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2? There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.
and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?
For the most part, yes. Remember that this is a SUBSCRIPTION based game with realm lockout timers. So unless someone wants to buy a 2nd account and pay the sub fee, then "making an alt on your realm and pm spam you" won't happen. And if it does just /ignore and you're fine.
Originally posted by tiglie Knowing your enemies creates rivalry, which fuels competitive PvP games, and gives you a reason to play. Nameless red blobs like GW2 promotes a pseudo PvE experience where everyone is the same and is blandly homogenized. If you're worried about a few people /whispering you to talk a little shit grow up. You are the problem of the increasing nanny state of society where everyone wins through participation and noone is allowed to stand above ..... you are the reason everything is so damn boring and homogenized.
QFT
Exactly we need to compete in order to have fun not damn boring next game.
I disliked the significant RAs from DAOC's RvR progression.
I liked Warhammer's model where the rewards were nominal base stats and had diminishing marginal decay on value (until late in the game where they added the inverse purge, etc).
Not a fan of "must have RR5 for purge / SoS / IP / basic stuff you need to compete".
I like 'some' RvR progression, but I hate barriers to entry. I think the majority of the progression should be left as titles / aesthetics. I dislike it when RvR "progression" becomes synonymous with WoW grind.
Of course, player names and deathspam are mandatory. An integrated Dammaz Kron into the interface would be nice. Camelotherald is also essential.
Also, the primary bulk of point accrual ("RPs") should be from kills, not "objectives". Reward players for content (fighting, killing) and they will find where to explore their content. Let objectives be an [i]optional framework[/i] for the content (fighting, killing). If players want to use objectives, ok. If they don't, ok. As long as they're finding fights, kills, and deaths.
You can't look at war's progression and ignore the armor which was the main reason they made the abilities/passives so weak. I'd take daoc's over war any day, but I don't think we'll get a progression system like daoc (long cd actives dominating). I think they'll end up putting a majority of the actives in the class abilities, leaving us with with maybe a handful of actives and passives for progression.
I don't mind a halfway approach, at least when it comes to those mandatory abilities (purge, sos etc), and leave the more interesting abilities for progression (volcanic pillar!).
More on topic, gw2 did some interesting things, but they overlooked some basic features and went very casual in their direction. Some like it, and some don't... I can't argue with it even though it's not the way I'd like it to be it still has some happy players. Hell I still play it because there's nothing else atm.
Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.
i think this is good.... games should be about skill and not about how can spend the most time grinding stuff.
also if these skills would favor PvP then the server with the highest amount of people would be get them first which would give them an even higher advantage.
but thats just my opinion
pvp should always be about skill and not time
Well...
Unerpopulated realms could farm populated realms in daoc and have tons of more rps so your statement is not true.
There must be something that makes you stronger every day otherwise you don't have any goal to play.
I loved playing my alts in daoc even tho I fought vs high RR guys. There was difference... but it wasn't so big that it didn't allow me to compete. I also enjoyed playing my high RR wizard with the spec that nobody chose but me.
PvP in daoc requires the skill and in the same time you always know that you make your character each day better.
i think "could" is the key word here... i dont think my statement is false otherwise zergs would never be a problem. im not saying its impossible but its nothing that every single underpoplutade faction/realm can/could achive
almost all pvp games now adays people whine about zergs and making the zerg stronger with special pvp skills becasue they play more doesnt sound right. i mean pvp should be rewarding yes and some kind of progression is needed too. but creating pvp gear (with pvp "stats") for instance is not the solution or pvp skills...
it needs to be balance otherwise you will get faced rolled...
people change classes and factions when they get tired of losing all the time.
Well if I do end up playing this, I hope they have an option to turn off names, make mine invisible to other players, or only have names visible when targeted. If someone wants to fear me becuase of my name and what I do on the virtual battlefield then fine, but I most likley won't be looking at anyone's name other than if it cons red or whatever indicates them as an enemy.
Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.
i think this is good.... games should be about skill and not about how can spend the most time grinding stuff.
also if these skills would favor PvP then the server with the highest amount of people would be get them first which would give them an even higher advantage.
but thats just my opinion
pvp should always be about skill and not time
Well...
Unerpopulated realms could farm populated realms in daoc and have tons of more rps so your statement is not true.
There must be something that makes you stronger every day otherwise you don't have any goal to play.
I loved playing my alts in daoc even tho I fought vs high RR guys. There was difference... but it wasn't so big that it didn't allow me to compete. I also enjoyed playing my high RR wizard with the spec that nobody chose but me.
PvP in daoc requires the skill and in the same time you always know that you make your character each day better.
i think "could" is the key word here... i dont think my statement is false otherwise zergs would never be a problem. im not saying its impossible but its nothing that every single underpoplutade faction/realm can/could achive
almost all pvp games now adays people whine about zergs and making the zerg stronger with special pvp skills becasue they play more doesnt sound right. i mean pvp should be rewarding yes and some kind of progression is needed too. but creating pvp gear (with pvp "stats") for instance is not the solution or pvp skills...
it needs to be balance otherwise you will get faced rolled...
people change classes and factions when they get tired of losing all the time.
You know in WAR / GW 2 it's impossible to kill with 20 over 100 people but in daoc it is.
That's why population doesn't matter much in daoc.
I led relic raid with 30 ppl and got all relics from hibs by making disorientation in hib land on lamorak classic server where albs were underpopulated. There was spam of 70 hibs on our keep that they tried to retake. We splitted them badly and killed them all the way through all keeps.
That's what is cool about daoc. Don't worry about population it doesn't matter that much. Even if its 2:1 it's still possible.
You know in WAR / GW 2 it's impossible to kill with 20 over 100 people but in daoc it is.
That's why population doesn't matter much in daoc.
I led relic raid with 30 ppl and got all relics from hibs by making disorientation in hib land on lamorak classic server where albs were underpopulated. There was spam of 70 hibs on our keep that they tried to retake. We splitted them badly and killed them all the way through all keeps.
That's what is cool about daoc. Don't worry about population it doesn't matter that much. Even if its 2:1 it's still possible.
thats what games should be about yes... skill and not lame aoe spams by zergs
but just because you managed to do it doesnt mean everyone else can and i dont think it was succeful all the time either.
and like you said this is a minor problem in GW2 and was/is in WAR and kinda is also in WoW with their resilience. also just because it was possible in DAoC doesnt mean it guaranteed in CU from start either. it takes time to balance stuff.
Dont worry, I have no doubt you will get DaoC style themepark PvP, the creator has shown he hasnt grown much as a developer which is why he is rehashing old ides.
Most GW2 fans are very thankfull they are getting a system that isnt going to cause massive imbalances by rewarding ever more power to the l33t d00ds to swing their epeens with causing an entire realm to hold mass protests in game about it like Hibernia did.
One of the many reasons nobody copied DaoCs RvRvR, it was terrible enough to get an entire realm to protest on most servers.
Mark's ideas were great. Problem is that socialism is coming into even games right now and is not rewarding ppl who are better. Todays games makes everyone as equal as possible. As similiar as possible. No damn differences = boooooring.
One of the things I most loved about DAOC was RvR character progression. This was done by giving realm points for kills. If you earned enough realm points, you advanced to the next realm level and realm rank and earned realm skill points. You could then use the realm skill points to purchase abilities that made your character more powerful. These included stat bonuses (increased dexterity, strength, etc.) and also active abilities such as Purge (removed all harmful effects including CC), Bunker of Faith (grants your group increased melee damage absorption for a time), Thornweed Field (creates a field with a large radius that pulses damage and snare for a time), and many more.
Such progression was missing in GW 2 at release and was a major thing many players were disappointed in and asked Arenanet to add. So now they finally have. But look at what the abilities they are offering are.
Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.
GW 2 fails in any number of other ways too:
You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.
The 3 servers that are matched up change frequently. If you are losing a matchup, you can just sit out and wait for the next reset and hope you get a more favorable matchup.
There is no real point to winning a matchup anyway other than bragging rights.
There are a wide variety of bonuses for winning during a matchup but they make no noticeable impact on gameplay and don't motivate anybody.
WvW is split into a number of zones and each zone has a fairly low hard cap of players per side relative to the number of players on a server. This means waiting in long queues on the most populated servers.
Also the zones aren't seamless. You have to go through a portal to get to the next zone and possibly wait in a queue again.
Flipping undefended keeps is rewarding.
Every player who tags another player gets equal rewards encouraging mindless AE spamming.
There is no direct healing. Everybody gets a self heal. Healing spells are mostly ground targetted.
Most of the zerg runs around ungrouped because of the previous 2 points. Why group when you get the same rewards ungrouped spamming AE spells and nobody can heal you anyway?
The graphics engine has some major flaws particularly culling which leads to enemy players randomly becoming invisible. This supposedly was fixed in a patch this week.
I quit 3 weeks after ToA so it could of changed but when I played DAoC all you saw was the race and their RR such as Elf Behon or whatever it was called.
The rest of your post I agreed.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I quit 3 weeks after ToA so it could of changed but when I played DAoC all you saw was the race and their RR such as Elf Behon or whatever it was called.
The rest of your post I agreed.
After you targetted you target you could always see the name in your console panel. Above the character was race and their RR as you said and it's still the same.
ToA killed this game because of making ppl /forcing them to leave PvP in order to be competetive. This is sometimes good, but come on in order to get ML1-10 + artifacts back then it was like 200 hours of gameplay. BTW now it's not so long, it's kinda easy, you can get most of the things through RvR.
After getting RR12 in daoc you can see instead of realm rank players name. Because he is so known that everybody should 'recognise' him. That's very cool.
You can't look at war's progression and ignore the armor which was the main reason they made the abilities/passives so weak.
The Warhammer armor scaling was pretty bad and irrelevant for most of the game's lifespan. It wasn't until the Sov revamp that RR actually mattered for gear. Conqueror gear was competitive, and any reasonable PvE set was competitive. All of this is because the gear was so damn hit-or-miss in terms of itemization. The Sov and some upper tier RvR gear was a downgrade to lower tiers or to PvE gear.
In any case, I think an easy way to segregate RAs and class abilities would be:
Dont worry, I have no doubt you will get DaoC style themepark PvP, the creator has shown he hasnt grown much as a developer which is why he is rehashing old ides.
Most GW2 fans are very thankfull they are getting a system that isnt going to cause massive imbalances by rewarding ever more power to the l33t d00ds to swing their epeens with causing an entire realm to hold mass protests in game about it like Hibernia did.
One of the many reasons nobody copied DaoCs RvRvR, it was terrible enough to get an entire realm to protest on most servers.
Mark's ideas were great. Problem is that socialism is coming into even games right now and is not rewarding ppl who are better. Todays games makes everyone as equal as possible. As similiar as possible. No damn differences = boooooring.
Socialism...lol. Socialism is rewarding people that earned nothing. Just taking part in PvP got you items, skill had nothing to do with it. It wasnt a SOLO PvP game, it was a GROUP PvP game, rewarding the GROUP A.K.A SOCIALISM. Because there could have been just a few in that group with skill while everyone else was just ZERGING getting points.
To reward in a non-socialst way would be to place rewards in a SOLO PvP based game and give penalties to groups of leeches.
Nice try but it does point out just how bad the game was.
Not being able to see enemy players names or being able to communicate with them kills pvp for me. Gw2 made me not care about who i was fighting, they were all just souless avatars.
Comments
Ask anyone that played DAoC during the early years. This type of scenario created some truly EPIC battles.
I also have to say no name recognition is the way to go. If names were revealed, I can only imagine the trash talk between players. Maybe Im just getting too old but I dont want to deal with all that. I occassionally party with the enemy. (Yes, you can, even though many dont realize it is possible.) But revealing names I don't want in GW2.
gamers population was more mature then
now we ended with lots of kids that dont give a fk about honor and other important stuff
showing your name in pvp just gets you lots of pms swearing on your mother and family thats how it is these days
Do you even understand that this is for CU, not GW2? There will be NO cross realm communication in CU so that won't be a problem.
and do you think it will stop these kids from making an alt on your realm and pm spam you?
haha so then just /ignore them. I was one of the most popular wizard in daoc and it was very rare that i got pmed with hate even tho everyone hated me from enemies.
There must be names / ranks like in daoc and deathspam
I hate GW 2 for not knowing who I'm killing. For the WvWvW that is changing people who I fight. This is bad, because you don't feel your character at all. You are not connected to enemies and not connected to fame of your character.
I disliked the significant RAs from DAOC's RvR progression.
I liked Warhammer's model where the rewards were nominal base stats and had diminishing marginal decay on value (until late in the game where they added the inverse purge, etc).
Not a fan of "must have RR5 for purge / SoS / IP / basic stuff you need to compete".
I like 'some' RvR progression, but I hate barriers to entry. I think the majority of the progression should be left as titles / aesthetics. I dislike it when RvR "progression" becomes synonymous with WoW grind.
Of course, player names and deathspam are mandatory. An integrated Dammaz Kron into the interface would be nice. Camelotherald is also essential.
Also, the primary bulk of point accrual ("RPs") should be from kills, not "objectives". Reward players for content (fighting, killing) and they will find where to explore their content. Let objectives be an [i]optional framework[/i] for the content (fighting, killing). If players want to use objectives, ok. If they don't, ok. As long as they're finding fights, kills, and deaths.
For the most part, yes. Remember that this is a SUBSCRIPTION based game with realm lockout timers. So unless someone wants to buy a 2nd account and pay the sub fee, then "making an alt on your realm and pm spam you" won't happen. And if it does just /ignore and you're fine.
QFT
Exactly we need to compete in order to have fun not damn boring next game.
You can't look at war's progression and ignore the armor which was the main reason they made the abilities/passives so weak. I'd take daoc's over war any day, but I don't think we'll get a progression system like daoc (long cd actives dominating). I think they'll end up putting a majority of the actives in the class abilities, leaving us with with maybe a handful of actives and passives for progression.
I don't mind a halfway approach, at least when it comes to those mandatory abilities (purge, sos etc), and leave the more interesting abilities for progression (volcanic pillar!).
More on topic, gw2 did some interesting things, but they overlooked some basic features and went very casual in their direction. Some like it, and some don't... I can't argue with it even though it's not the way I'd like it to be it still has some happy players. Hell I still play it because there's nothing else atm.
I played GW through about lvl 20. Quests everywhere, instances everywhere. No grouping. No thanks.
i think "could" is the key word here... i dont think my statement is false otherwise zergs would never be a problem. im not saying its impossible but its nothing that every single underpoplutade faction/realm can/could achive
almost all pvp games now adays people whine about zergs and making the zerg stronger with special pvp skills becasue they play more doesnt sound right. i mean pvp should be rewarding yes and some kind of progression is needed too. but creating pvp gear (with pvp "stats") for instance is not the solution or pvp skills...
it needs to be balance otherwise you will get faced rolled...
people change classes and factions when they get tired of losing all the time.
Well if I do end up playing this, I hope they have an option to turn off names, make mine invisible to other players, or only have names visible when targeted. If someone wants to fear me becuase of my name and what I do on the virtual battlefield then fine, but I most likley won't be looking at anyone's name other than if it cons red or whatever indicates them as an enemy.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
You know in WAR / GW 2 it's impossible to kill with 20 over 100 people but in daoc it is.
That's why population doesn't matter much in daoc.
I led relic raid with 30 ppl and got all relics from hibs by making disorientation in hib land on lamorak classic server where albs were underpopulated. There was spam of 70 hibs on our keep that they tried to retake. We splitted them badly and killed them all the way through all keeps.
That's what is cool about daoc. Don't worry about population it doesn't matter that much. Even if its 2:1 it's still possible.
thats what games should be about yes... skill and not lame aoe spams by zergs
but just because you managed to do it doesnt mean everyone else can and i dont think it was succeful all the time either.
and like you said this is a minor problem in GW2 and was/is in WAR and kinda is also in WoW with their resilience. also just because it was possible in DAoC doesnt mean it guaranteed in CU from start either. it takes time to balance stuff.
Mark's ideas were great. Problem is that socialism is coming into even games right now and is not rewarding ppl who are better. Todays games makes everyone as equal as possible. As similiar as possible. No damn differences = boooooring.
I quit 3 weeks after ToA so it could of changed but when I played DAoC all you saw was the race and their RR such as Elf Behon or whatever it was called.
The rest of your post I agreed.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
After you targetted you target you could always see the name in your console panel. Above the character was race and their RR as you said and it's still the same.
ToA killed this game because of making ppl /forcing them to leave PvP in order to be competetive. This is sometimes good, but come on in order to get ML1-10 + artifacts back then it was like 200 hours of gameplay. BTW now it's not so long, it's kinda easy, you can get most of the things through RvR.
After getting RR12 in daoc you can see instead of realm rank players name. Because he is so known that everybody should 'recognise' him. That's very cool.
You can't look at war's progression and ignore the armor which was the main reason they made the abilities/passives so weak.
The Warhammer armor scaling was pretty bad and irrelevant for most of the game's lifespan. It wasn't until the Sov revamp that RR actually mattered for gear. Conqueror gear was competitive, and any reasonable PvE set was competitive. All of this is because the gear was so damn hit-or-miss in terms of itemization. The Sov and some upper tier RvR gear was a downgrade to lower tiers or to PvE gear.
In any case, I think an easy way to segregate RAs and class abilities would be:
All RAs are passives.
Any actives should be class abilities.
Seems simple.
Socialism...lol. Socialism is rewarding people that earned nothing. Just taking part in PvP got you items, skill had nothing to do with it. It wasnt a SOLO PvP game, it was a GROUP PvP game, rewarding the GROUP A.K.A SOCIALISM. Because there could have been just a few in that group with skill while everyone else was just ZERGING getting points.
To reward in a non-socialst way would be to place rewards in a SOLO PvP based game and give penalties to groups of leeches.
Nice try but it does point out just how bad the game was.