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DDO the Wannabe MMO
zxJusticexz
Member Posts: 18
They want to be MMO, yet their rulesets and gameplay is meant for small parties. The game was meant for small groups and so they had to 'instance it up'
Really this game is just D&D with pretty looks and trading with other people.
In exchange for the pretty looks and trading with other people, you get to pay a monthy fee.
This is what happens when companies get greedy.
Comments
you accuse them of being greedy when other companies charges fees for MUCH crappier games??!
well you know the cost and maintenance of the servers isn't free, and the employees who work on them don't work for free either. And guess what the people who have to add new content and balance the game aren't free either. Go figure.
Plus, you are actually surprised the game is mostly about small parties adventuring in dungeons? What's the title again? Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Yeah I give um props for trying to replicate the PnP game and and trying to do new things with the stale MMo genre.
Whether its succesful or not is another matter entirely, but kudos for tryin.
Would you rather play DDO.. or Neverwinter nights with graphics as good as DDO?
Just another proof that ppl that have no experiance of the paper game dont seems to understand this game.
GoodLuckPlayerKiller
The game is not going to be a broad appeal MMORPG. It's not the next WoW or EQ2. Not even the next Horizons or DAoC. It's appeal is maybe more on par with Saga of Ryzom. The large adherence to the PnP ruleset has lead to a game that is not really a very good MMORPG by any mainstream standard.
It could be a good niche product for PnP DnD enthusiasts, but currently it's not even particularly good in that role. It has better graphics than NVW, which one would hope from a modern product. On just about every other point it falls well short. In any event what it offers by virtue of being an MMO doesn't really justify a monthly fee, given the other failings.
Yes, it's still a way before launch, but the amount of major redesign required to make it a competative MMORPG is just huge. The amount of reworking to make it a niche DnD product is more feasible, but still wouild require a lot of effort. Then they would need to add enough value added features beyond nicer graphics to make it a viable product requiring a monthly fee to play.
Translating DnD to an MMO is a daunting task no matter how you look at it. Either it would need to be built from scratch game inspired by the PnP game, but designed based on the lessons and expectations of other MMORPGS, or it would need to be an accurate translation of the PnP game that makes use of the MMO status of the game to offer some real value for the translation. DDO is not the first, but the second. The problem is it doesn't do a very good job at achieving that goal in it's current incarnation.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
"Translating DnD to an MMO is a daunting task no matter how you look at it"
Its trying to make a game you are meant to play in small groups without worrying about competition and putting everyone together but in a way so they have to play with each other therefore destroying the very purpose of MMO.
Just another proof that ppl that have no experiance of the paper game dont seems to understand this game.
Speak for yourself. Have you played DDO yet? If you haven't, I would keep quiet. Neverwinter Nights is MUCH closer to the D&D spirit than DDO is currently, with it's DM client and ability to run adventures custom made for your gaming group using the toolset, etc.
i played the stress test, i really don't like it.
i don't think this will do well.
I really hate listening to naysayers...
I haven't met a single person who has played PnP D&D in Beta who hasn't liked the game. I here alot of complaining about stupid things like PvP and Crafting and I wonder...
What in the heck does an RPG even have these elements for... I meen there pointless to an RPG.
This game is more than about the D&D name, its about returning to what an RPG really is. Getting rid of all these wanna be MMORPG's, and making the first real MMORPG the way RPG's were meant to be. It departs from the norm, which is what makes it better than all those copycat MMO's out there.
If you don't like the RPG experience and want a massively player hack and slash (which is really what most of them are) then D&DO isn't going to be for you.
Sometimes I wish they would limit the Beta's to people who know what the heck there talking about, the true players, who know what RPG's and D&D are all about. Its a shame that they waste all this time on people who just want to be the first to play it, or think this is there time to preview the game before they might go out and buy it. If your one of these people, one of the naysaying haters in beta who do nothing but complain about game mechanics, then step aside and make way for the experienced RPG player and take your hateing back to WOW or whatever other piece of a so called RPG it is you play.
(Note: Some MMO's are actually pretty good RPG's, but it seems as if the majority just somehow magically put themselves in this genre for some strange reason.)
First of all, I started playing PnP DnD back when it was just a ~32 page 5" x 8" booklet and have played every version since then, although very little from 3rd edition on I'll have to admit. I know what the PnP experience is all about. I am also a MMORPG veteran, having played or tested just about every major game in the genre from EQ on. I love DnD, but absolutely hate DDO. Now, I was only a stress tester, so if you are refering to closed beta testers in your first comment, I would have to say that tester selection is probably part of the problem, espescially if the beta community has in any way led to the current state of the game.
I'm not talking about bugs and little tweaks, there were a lot of them and some major exploits as well that I ignored during the time testing to try to get a better grasp on the game design itself. Looking at it objectively, as if I had never played DnD before in my life, I have to honestly say that the game design is among the worst I have seen in any mmorpg I have touched. I'm not judging that on it's success at following some mold set by previous games, I'm judging it on standards of fun vs. frustration, sense of accomplishment and exploration and a list of other elements that people play MMOs for. If a MMO can meet the needs of it's potential playerbase, it will be a short term success, if it can continue to meet many of those needs long term, it will be a continued and growing success. As an MMORPG, this game is just a complete failure. It's the worst elements of Guildwars mixed in with game mechanics that are completely not suited for MMO play. The design of the quests can in places be evolutionary, but as a whole the game world is subpar to even some of the low budget independant MMOs I have tried.
The game is close to being a good PnP DnD simulator, a hundered times closer to that than it is to providing any of the elements required to make a successful MMORPG. However, many of the compromises they have made to the PnP rules destroy it's appeal for that niche of the market.
It has some hope in that regard, it could be made into a very nice DnD simulator and would probably enjoy some success, minor by MMO standards, but at least financially viable. However, this game is never going to be succesful in appealing to the vast majority of the MMORPG playerbase.
They could actually lose the MMO element all together and just add player matching services for instanced quests with out losing much from what they currently offer. That's how poorly the game takes advantage of the MMO part of the equation, (This is seperate from my evaluation of the games ability to appeal to the MMORPG audience, just my view on the lack of any real value the MMO server structure brings to the game).
There are two DnD games that could be successful. A built from the ground up, "inspired by" MMORPG that throws out the written rules and just tries to bring the setting and atmosphere the PnP games to life. Or, a really good DnD simulator that leverages the power of computers and the advantages of shared, secure servers to enhance the play experience. DDO is neither of these and that is the problem.
As to your comments in general about who should or shouldn't be invited to a beta, the closer the testers represent the market the game is targeting, the better it will be for the game. If the target audience is the 1% of the community that think most similarly to you, then your advice would be sound. If the target audience is a little wider than that, then your advice would doom a developing MMO to spectacular failure. My review of the current state of DDO is not only based on how close it comes to being my perfect game, but also based on my understanding of the broader audience. DDO isn't even a product focused on hard core RPGers, it currently has appeal to a tiny subset of that subset of the larger market. The game could be adjusted to appeal to a larger portion of Roleplayer subset than it currently does with some work, but it's never going to be a game to appeal to even half of that subset, let alone a notable portion of the larger MMO audience.
I think some elements of quest design could end up being borrowed by some future or even current MMORPGs, other than that, DDO really has nothing lasting to offer the genre. I hope it never get's seen as an example of the kind of game serious roleplayers want either, because it so so distant from offering the design needed to be viable in the market that game companies my decide that it's not even worth trying to offer elements that appeal to hard core roleplayers in future MMOs.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
First of all most MMORPGs, don't even fit the classification of an RPG. So if your even going to begin to compair DDO to anyother game you need to stop right there.
Secondly, DDO, unlike just about everyother MMORPG, limits resources during quests. You have X HP, Y SP and you need to manage all your resources in order to complete the objective. Now... lets compair this to some other MMO's like WOW (god... there I go breaking the cardinal rule for the sake of arguement). When you battered and bruised in WOW, what do you do, "Alright everyone lets take a 5er and go take a piss and grab a bite to eat! And when we get back our characters will be like brand new!" DDO doesn't promote this type of gameplay, which is a good thing, if having to think things thru is a "frustration" and not being able to hack and slash your way thru a game makes it "boring" then obviosly this isn't your game... go back to WOW, or better yet leave the MMO market and go play yourself some DOOM 3 or something that doesn't attempt to call itself an RPG. RPGs aren't about advancing the character and getting better at beating things up... an RPG is all about story progression, its about the challenge, its about my choices and actions, not brute force killing.
You want to define the perfect MMO... You want what a real MMORPG should be, and not what companies have produced to date! Then listen up... Heres the top 5 things that an MMORPG should have in order to be a GOOD MMORPG.
1. Multiplayer, kind of a duh... I'm talking about a real multiplayer experience... One where everyone needs to work together to accomplish a goal.
2. A story arc (perferably non-linear) which is engrossing of the characters, one you can get lost in. And none of this go here, do this, then go here ect... junk. Characters should evolve as the arc evolves... your goal to next level shouldn't be... "Kill 1,000 monsters", any RPG that doesn't assign Ad-Hoc EXP isn't an RPG.
3. A good MMORPG should force a character to use all resources available to them to accomplish their goal, not just phyiscal combat prowess... and the character should progress accordingly with new skills that open new possibilities to those characters.
4. A players actions in and RPG should have some reprocussion on the game and the story arc should reflect those changes.
5. Any GOOD game should be a challenge, and not just a challenge here in the moment... I'm not talking about the type of challenge that's, "Kill this Dragon, or some other nasty creature." I'm talking the type of challenge thats ongoing. The challenge should push players ideas of what exactly it is that can be accomplished. A good RPG takes something that wouldn't nessecarily be a challenge and turns it into one... It should force you to manage your resources... otherwise that small group of Kobolds at the very end of the Dungeon might yet stand a chance of kicking your rear. It should force you to at some point think... "What the heck do we do now?"
I hope you get my point... cause it sounds like your compairing it to other MMO's and forgetting that its all really about the RPG experience... and your compairing DDO to things that aren't true RPG's, nor do most even come close to being an RPG. DDO attempts to return to the heart of what an RPG is, and anyone who truely enjoys RPGs, and I'm not talking about those psuedo-RPGs you seem to be compairing DDO to, should realize that DDO might just become the best TRUE MMORPG available when it comes out.
If you ask me... most games that claim to be MMORPGs are really nothing more the MMOG.
DDO = HARDCORE RPG EXPERIENCE!
I had a lot of fun on the stress test only had a day to play it. It did disturb me to see so many non roleplayers playing it though. Names such as ghetto ect. People spamming dance naked in the tavern. This isnt what i like to see in a d&d experience. Ill also post i am more of a fan of forgotten realms.
Things i did like. The dungeon missions. Well thought out and fun. You got to think on your toes. Rely on your full party doing there job. Not just dragging around folks to get them through. I really hope they dont have epic items through little merit though. To me very powerful items should be few and far between and merited for the most greivous of tasks.
Orky Name Generator, only at www.bigchoppaz.com
I think a stress test isn't a fair gauge of the game and it's rp potential, Flea. You have a ton of people who would have mostly signed up just for something to do, who are completely unprepared for what they might find and, even the die hard role players probably didn't feel much motivation to rp during a stress test that lasted for most, one day. I think there might end up being more role players in this game than in most... of course, in my opinion, DDO is very much a niche game. I'm not sure that even Turbine sees it as a potential WoW... they seem to be very pragmatic about their audience.
I agree, althought this game isn't the best I'm sure it'll make some people happy. It adds to the variety of games you can choose from instead of just trying to copy other mmorpg's over and over again. It's just different. I don't think it should be P2P like most MMORPGS are. It should be Free like other simular games. It's sort of like diablo, except the town is a 3dchat room. If Guildwars and Diablo is free I'm for certain they can afford to make this free also. I'm sure it takes about the same amount of server load as either one of them.
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If you fear level grinding then fear no more... you no longer have to kill 100,000 monsters to make it to the next 'moment'... but you have to remember that each 'moment' is really only 1/4 of a level, since theres only 10 levels. Which meens theres 40 moments from 1-10, and last I heard they plan on adding another 10 levels after release.
At each moment you get to pick a new addition or substiture an addition to your character (max 4). These build on each other slowly over time, so your replace a less desireable addition with one more powerful as you advance.
From whats known so far, these play a great roll in advancing your character inbetween levels.
An example I heard of off hand is, buy second moment the cleric has the ability to add 1 to wisdom, something PnP D&D only happens once every 4 levels.
Hmm ok you haven't met anyone that plays PnP AD&D
Been playing D&D since the 70's and AD&D since 1981. DDO would make a fantastic CORPG that's free to play (like NeverWinter Nights). As an MMORPG it's not very good. It's so instanced that the zoning in the game actually gets painful.
It's not a BAD game it just isn't going to be worth a monthly fee. As a CORPG it would be a fantastic buy. But as an MMO???? nah...
But I do agree that the game is a very good ORPG... just take the MM out of it and don't charge a monthly fee for it
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I have mixed feellings on the subject of DDO. On one hand, during the Stress Test, I really enjoyed the vast experience of it. The number of quests available to a 1st level character was such a joy, unlike other MMos where you know someone has a quest or mission but you aren't yet high enough. I digress. I think DDO is going to promote better RPGing that others that much is sure. Classes are dependent on each other, but not too much. It is possible to complete quests without fighters or rogues or clerics etc, but it does make certain times a lot easier.
While the actual quests are instanced, there are areas that are shared. You have danger zones:
and
and
So what you're saying is it's almost exactly like Guildwars.... except you get to pay a monthly fee for DDO while Guildwars has no fee.... that about right?
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Good Grief! I didn't read all that but I HOPE he said more than what you posted, Elnator! There were so many words....
I played Guildwars for 2 weeks before I got absolutely sick of it, I paid 50$ for the box -- if other mmos cost 30 - 40$ and come with a free month, that game friggin' jipped me. Know that if MMOGs all worked on the Guildwars model, there'd be twice as much complainers asking for cheap boxes and monthly fees.. and they'd annoy the $%!* out of you by spamming the same thing on every single friggin forum they can get to. Gosh wouldn't that just suck?
Another thing, I'm sick of hearing people complaining about DDO's 'slavish following' of the DnD rules. For one thing, most MMORPGs that have thus bar been have extremely threadbare RPG systems that are generated purely to give people something to sink years into the game for. They're not tested for fun, they're not intended to be cool, they are nothing but sprinkles on the treadmill -- seriously Kingdom of Loathing has a system that's pretty much as complex as EverQuest or UO or their ilk, just more entertaining. Quite frankly, I'd rather gauge my progress in ways I can understand, and indeed, I can understand progress in DnD 3.5 on an almost innate level, it's not like some other MMO where I put +3 into "Guts" and have to go looking on a forum to find out WTF that does.
That they're using the DnD system, and staying pretty much accurate to it, is a tremendous boon to the potential fun value of this game. It is not generic, technically all the EQ's and Asheron's Call's and other class-based fantasy MMOGs are actually the generic brands of DnD, they are knock-off systems that are slapped together to approximate class-based level progression.
edit: I just had to mention again how irritated I am by these people asking for DDO to not be an MMORPG. Heard of a little game called Neverwinter Nights? It's about 10x better as a singleplayer game than DDO could ever be in its wildest dreams, and it doesn't cost a freakin dime per month -- plus there's thousands of adventures available to download for free... You know the one thing it's really lacking is one big world where you can bring your character to see how it truly stacks up, with no cheaters and plenty of people your own level, and craploads of quests, and really great content up to level 10 or soish.... hrm... but then they'd probably have to charge a fee, it'd take pretty powerful servers to handle more than 64 people without tons of lag you know? Okay okay, I'll stop, I think you know what I'm insinuating.
Unfortuantly I haven't played Guild Wars, so can't comment.
Such as?
Dont know what game you were playing but in the DnD game I used to play years ago if a character wanted to go for a walk, leave town and head to another one, craft a sword, kill another player ect ect he could.
DnD was never just dungeons. there was always a whole world there that the DM kept track of.
Funniest quote ever.
Dont know what game you were playing but in the DnD game I used to play years ago if a character wanted to go for a walk, leave town and head to another one, craft a sword, kill another player ect ect he could.
Got to agree with the whole 'dungeons' bit. DnD to me was never about the dungeons. It had Wilderness too, and lots of it. If I remember the ADnD 1st Ed description of a dungeon, it said something along the line of ; It's any place inside where the characters adventure' so it isn't about your characters going into a hole in a mountain or the landlords celler. More often than not my characters when on jouneys that had more outside than inside, mainly because it offered so much more freedom of choice both to me as a DM and to the players to become more inventive in their actions.
Dungeons or whatever, are only good for one main thing : restriction of player choice. Sure they add certain ambience and are undenibly great fun if ran correctly. Sure the original Basic sets focused a lot on dungeons, but as the game has grown over the years, it has been moving out of the dark and dank places into the wild and wet outsides. The proof of this is the numerous 'Worlds' that have been made, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and now Ebberon, to name a small selection, nevermind the hundreds of thousands that DMs in their own homes have made.