Originally posted by Ramonski7 Looks good. I just hope he understands that freedom to kill and freedom to loot are not the only freedoms associated with sandbox mmorpgs.
This. Hopefully developers like this learn that it's a good idea to run servers that don't have those designs.
those designs are bad design and will ruin what could have been better. Darkfall learned this the hard way, although I wouldn't say that's a Sandbox.
Originally posted by Yalexy Originally posted by Fraden Originally posted by YalexyGood ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
Who ever said there wont be safe areas, or heavily gaurded areas? All he said is there is FFA PvP, didn't say it's impossible to have a safe place, just that you CAN be attacked anywhere. People have to be daring enough to do so, and if you go on the game's forums and read what he has detailed about how factions work you would realize it is extremely risky to attack anyone without consideration and preperation for the consequences.
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.
Good ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.
EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
I never know why every single sandbox feels that it has to have FFA PVP......ITs like an unwritten rule or something.....While it may be a great experience for a handful of people (usually the biggest jerks in the game), it is no fun for the rest who are just trying to enjoy playing.
Originally posted by YalexyGood ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
Who ever said there wont be safe areas, or heavily gaurded areas? All he said is there is FFA PvP, didn't say it's impossible to have a safe place, just that you CAN be attacked anywhere. People have to be daring enough to do so, and if you go on the game's forums and read what he has detailed about how factions work you would realize it is extremely risky to attack anyone without consideration and preperation for the consequences.
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.
You never played Ultima Online did you?
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
Originally posted by YalexyGood ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
Who ever said there wont be safe areas, or heavily gaurded areas? All he said is there is FFA PvP, didn't say it's impossible to have a safe place, just that you CAN be attacked anywhere. People have to be daring enough to do so, and if you go on the game's forums and read what he has detailed about how factions work you would realize it is extremely risky to attack anyone without consideration and preperation for the consequences.
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.
You never played Ultima Online did you?
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
Well then you already have plenty of FFA PVP sandbox choices to pick from . Perhaps the PVE crowd would just like ONE PVE sandbox to pick from. I remember back in the day when most PVE games at least had one FFA PVP server for folks that liked PVP. Guess it does not go both ways aye?
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
I have talked to Ethan personally in various emails and i do love the commitment and the backstory, which shows great vision for a project in this stage. He is a very smart and open person with great ideas.
I hope that he gets funded and has a chance to continue with his project. It's a modest sum to ask compared to some outrageous projects that only exist on paper and want 2 million.
I am looking forward to hear more from this project in the future.
Best of luck to you Ethan,
Cheers | taus01
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
Thank you!
What we're experiencing is essentially the millions of younger gamers that WoW brought to the franchise starting to see games like this ("oldschool" mmos you might call it) and think, "What? PFFT that could NEVER work!", only because they don't really have the experience to know that it does... in fact work.
As has been outlined many times when people bring up this game, "It's an ecosystem and every ecosystem balances itself". What this basically means is that, with NPC guards that protect only people with high enough faction to who they themselves are tight with, the chance and lossing your stuff on death and the risk involved, it's much more likely that there won't be genocide in the streets.
I see these, "if everyone can attack anyone then there will be Babylonian anarchy rampant" arguements being made constantly, but nobody can really point out where it's been attempted and truly "failed". The most people can say is, "Oh this one game Darkfall totally failed because they tried it." Really? Pardon me if I'm wrong but I don't think that game is closed down yet. Even with it's dated graphics and limited appeal, their audience is older... and more loyal. So the only thing that "hardcore" games like this lose are (forgive me for my bluntness) a few sissies in the first couple months of live.
If you don't want to get PK'd, cowboy-the-f*ck-up and wall up your property. Travel in a pack with friends or in a heavily armored vehicle of some kind. People who are against the ability of being attacked without their consent are just against actually having to sit up in your chair and pay attention to what's going on in the game world.
And to the person who mentioned that there's like 9K now at only like 140 funders... That should tell you something man. The people who are into this kind of game and what it stands to bring to us all are some devoted, loyal people and I would much rather game alongside those people than thousands of minmaxing kids in world of warcraft any day.
Hype it up and lets get some front page exposure! I'm not stopping until that final fantasy rehash is knocked off that board and replaced by this lol
Originally posted by Burntvet Originally posted by snapfusion Originally posted by Yalexy Originally posted by Fraden Originally posted by YalexyGood ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
Who ever said there wont be safe areas, or heavily gaurded areas? All he said is there is FFA PvP, didn't say it's impossible to have a safe place, just that you CAN be attacked anywhere. People have to be daring enough to do so, and if you go on the game's forums and read what he has detailed about how factions work you would realize it is extremely risky to attack anyone without consideration and preperation for the consequences.
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.
You never played Ultima Online did you?
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
I did actually play some UO and what you say is not wholly wrong. But fast forward 12 years and the kinds of players that PK'd then and now are totally different. Not nearly as much E-peen back then and yes, PK'ers were controlled to a degree. People PK now in games like DF and MO just to be D-bags and ruin other people's fun and I never saw that back then (but MMO communities were far better back then, as a function of who was playing them and who wasn't). But then UO was wrecked a bit in later incarnations and it became a footnote in the industry. Full loot FFA PvP as it exists NOW and any decent crafting don't/won't mix well, if that is more clear.
Good ideas, but this game will fail for one reason... there's no safer areas for people to just do some PvE without being forced to constantly watch their backs.
EvE Online has shown, that you need these safer areas to make open world FFA PvP work.
Eve has safer areas like you said. This game might have that as well. He said you could be killed everywhere. It might be possible some areas are simply more gaurded and when you kill someone changes are you die as well. Like EvE.
Originally posted by kosac full loot system or not? thx
This is taken from the indiegogo page.
****
Divergence Means HARD-CORE
Open-PVP everywhere. No exceptions. If you don't like the way that alien is checking out your girl, put a bullet in his face. Just be prepapred to lose faction with the establishments bouncers who with enough ruckus may elect to toss your ass out.
Lootable Corpses. You won't have an inventory full of thousands of ridiculous objects. All objects have a mass equivalent and slow you down based on your physical ability to carry loads. Don't carry your valuables on you!
Limited Permanent-Death. The most controversial of the controversial. Cloning in Divergence is common but not guaranteed. You'll need clone insurance, a few clones in storage, to be within the sphere of a cloning beacon and a race which can actually clone in order to avoid starting over on your character after death. Death means something, and thus life means something. Dancers, don't despair. Most NPC and player towns have their own cloning spheres."
Ya it sounds like the guy really has a love for his project but think whole kickstarter thing IMO is crazy. Banks and companies that invest in project make sure their money is not being given to companies that dont know how to manage the money. Also if I am going to invest I dont want some digitial items, or access to beta, I want a return on my money. I am sure this guy is really driven to give a good game but can he run a company? (((shrugs)))
At least they are only after 15k instead of 1 or 2 million like some crazy and greedy indie devs are after.
15K ?
What are they going to do with that ? Buy a new coffee machine ?
I guess all the developers of this game are working for free ? Because 15K won't cover anything for more than a month or two.
Yes, the developer has been pretty much working for free.
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
Looks interesting and wish this project the best of luck, though it's not the game for me.
You can tell he was influenced by SWG by the style of the structures and the "cloning" feature. Then comes right out and says he's proud to call his game a refuge for former SWG fans.
What I don't get is why people keep associating SWG with "hardcore" sandboxes? Yes, it was a sandbox but there was nothing hardcore about SWG. Combat was easy and pvp was completely voluntary unless players went jedi.
Just another in a long list of so called hard core games. There is going to be a lot of games fighting over a small group of players interested in this type of game. I wish them luck, but their chances are not very good..
The safest area is the one your guild/clan/corp controls. Just like real life. So long as we have the sandbox freedom to provide our own security, i dont need any carebear safezones.
Originally posted by mCalvert The safest area is the one your guild/clan/corp controls. Just like real life. So long as we have the sandbox freedom to provide our own security, i dont need any carebear safezones.
Comments
I'm sold.
/signed
gonna back it as soon as I have decided which reward tier to get... hm, difficult
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.
.
The Return of ELITE !
This. Hopefully developers like this learn that it's a good idea to run servers that don't have those designs.
those designs are bad design and will ruin what could have been better. Darkfall learned this the hard way, although I wouldn't say that's a Sandbox.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.I never know why every single sandbox feels that it has to have FFA PVP......ITs like an unwritten rule or something.....While it may be a great experience for a handful of people (usually the biggest jerks in the game), it is no fun for the rest who are just trying to enjoy playing.
You never played Ultima Online did you?
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
Well then you already have plenty of FFA PVP sandbox choices to pick from . Perhaps the PVE crowd would just like ONE PVE sandbox to pick from. I remember back in the day when most PVE games at least had one FFA PVP server for folks that liked PVP. Guess it does not go both ways aye?
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
Good interview!
I have talked to Ethan personally in various emails and i do love the commitment and the backstory, which shows great vision for a project in this stage. He is a very smart and open person with great ideas.
I hope that he gets funded and has a chance to continue with his project. It's a modest sum to ask compared to some outrageous projects that only exist on paper and want 2 million.
I am looking forward to hear more from this project in the future.
Best of luck to you Ethan,
Cheers | taus01
Thank you!
What we're experiencing is essentially the millions of younger gamers that WoW brought to the franchise starting to see games like this ("oldschool" mmos you might call it) and think, "What? PFFT that could NEVER work!", only because they don't really have the experience to know that it does... in fact work.
As has been outlined many times when people bring up this game, "It's an ecosystem and every ecosystem balances itself". What this basically means is that, with NPC guards that protect only people with high enough faction to who they themselves are tight with, the chance and lossing your stuff on death and the risk involved, it's much more likely that there won't be genocide in the streets.
I see these, "if everyone can attack anyone then there will be Babylonian anarchy rampant" arguements being made constantly, but nobody can really point out where it's been attempted and truly "failed". The most people can say is, "Oh this one game Darkfall totally failed because they tried it." Really? Pardon me if I'm wrong but I don't think that game is closed down yet. Even with it's dated graphics and limited appeal, their audience is older... and more loyal. So the only thing that "hardcore" games like this lose are (forgive me for my bluntness) a few sissies in the first couple months of live.
If you don't want to get PK'd, cowboy-the-f*ck-up and wall up your property. Travel in a pack with friends or in a heavily armored vehicle of some kind. People who are against the ability of being attacked without their consent are just against actually having to sit up in your chair and pay attention to what's going on in the game world.
And to the person who mentioned that there's like 9K now at only like 140 funders... That should tell you something man. The people who are into this kind of game and what it stands to bring to us all are some devoted, loyal people and I would much rather game alongside those people than thousands of minmaxing kids in world of warcraft any day.
Hype it up and lets get some front page exposure! I'm not stopping until that final fantasy rehash is knocked off that board and replaced by this lol
I guess I'm just let down by too many FFA PvP MMOs in the past, that simply didn't get this part of the equation right.
Also. You need some amount of easily consumable PvE for the carebears to support a living game-universe, which is shown by EvE Online aswell, where 75% of the players never leave high-sec.
Agreed, nice to see some sandbox games coming out, but the fact still remains there is a finite number of gamers that will put up with a Full loot PvP game period, but every sandbox dev thinks they need that in their "sandbox" Whats going to happen is simple, all these sandbox full looters are going to come out and the same small number of players are just going to get further spread out. Meaning most will never achive any real success numbers wise, and just limp along like DF and Mortal have.
They will all just canabiize each other. No the rest of the gamers wont come around to Full Loot, its just not going to happen, dream on indies.
Yeah, my opinion is about the same. I wish the indie developers would get off the full open PvP thing, it brings out the worst parts of the MMO community. Full loot PvP and crafting a centric economy do not go together. EvE has pushed that about as far as that will go, and even then a lot of people don't like that system. Open world is fine, and even good, but open world and always flagged PvP would be hard to do well, if there were a reason for there to be dedicated crafters. Personally, I think SWG had the right mix: open world PvP, but must be flagged for it or acquire a TEF (temporary enemy flag) by helping or dealing with a flagged player. Full on all the time PvP is bad for crafters and a crafting based economy.You never played Ultima Online did you?
A great balance of PvP, PvE, and Crafting - The struggle between the PK'ers and the PK Killers are by far the most fun I have had in any MMORPG.
You had actual risk for reward - there was actual adrenaline and excitement everytime you logged on.
If a gaming community wants easy mode, with only a challenge of a grind, than I no longer want to be a part of that community.
I did actually play some UO and what you say is not wholly wrong. But fast forward 12 years and the kinds of players that PK'd then and now are totally different. Not nearly as much E-peen back then and yes, PK'ers were controlled to a degree. People PK now in games like DF and MO just to be D-bags and ruin other people's fun and I never saw that back then (but MMO communities were far better back then, as a function of who was playing them and who wasn't). But then UO was wrecked a bit in later incarnations and it became a footnote in the industry. Full loot FFA PvP as it exists NOW and any decent crafting don't/won't mix well, if that is more clear.Eve has safer areas like you said. This game might have that as well. He said you could be killed everywhere. It might be possible some areas are simply more gaurded and when you kill someone changes are you die as well. Like EvE.
This is taken from the indiegogo page.
****
Divergence Means HARD-CORE
15K ?
What are they going to do with that ? Buy a new coffee machine ?
I guess all the developers of this game are working for free ? Because 15K won't cover anything for more than a month or two.
Yes, the developer has been pretty much working for free.
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
Looks interesting and wish this project the best of luck, though it's not the game for me.
You can tell he was influenced by SWG by the style of the structures and the "cloning" feature. Then comes right out and says he's proud to call his game a refuge for former SWG fans.
What I don't get is why people keep associating SWG with "hardcore" sandboxes? Yes, it was a sandbox but there was nothing hardcore about SWG. Combat was easy and pvp was completely voluntary unless players went jedi.
Favorite quote of the day.
(It sucks you dont wanna see it)