For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
CU is a low budget game being developed by a indie developer. Its main selling points is its a rip off of DAoC, and has Mark Jacobs on its team.
its Cons.
Low budget which has not actually yet been met.
Inexperienced team being lead by MJ the guy that made Warhammer (if you love warhammer and are still playing it consider it a positive, but then if thats true why are you here? ), and the same guy that put the nail in DAoC's coffin with TOA
Game itself is not actually in developement yet. Threy are currently showing off the software and tools that they are working on to develop the game.
Many elements that made DAoC grrat will not be in CU. No PVE means no dungeons, no, monsters and no Darkness falls type dungeons to fight over. In theory if you log in on a slow night there will be no one to fight.
Never forget that DAoC was actually an indie game developed by an indie company. But it turned to be a huge success.
I feel like most mmo's out there have greath bredth, but poor depth. Said another way, they are good at a lot of things, but masters of nothing.
I foresee CU as being master of what it attempts to do, but don't look to it for your one stop shop for everything. Also I think a large portion of the fun gameplay is going to be player generated.
This fills a niche I definitely want to play, that no other mmo is doing well. However I may still wanna go mindlessless bash NPC skulls in, or raid, or quest, or whatever.... so I may play other games still, which is fine.
I prefer that, so that I get the quality RVR type experience I want, and can look elsewhere for the other things.
I think people are just used to games having EVERYTHING in them, but modern (newer) mmoers don't realize they're sacrificing quality of content/gameplay for quantity of content/gameplay.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
May i ask if you supported other kickstarters ?
I also agree that pvp only is a turn off to a majority of people.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I liked the idea, but I am on the fence, because I usually do a lot of crafting, harvesting, pve, pvp, I play everything, and having the variety keeps me from getting burned out/bored. I was a fan of DAoC, but I do not know how I feel about my aspects of long term play without PvE. I really debated giving money, but the limits of the game nagged me.
I am not being critical about his choice, I understand they have a budget, a game only centered on pvp is probably the best way to balance it and fastest....Usually pve skills will break pvp, or vice versa. Like Vanguard, they announced they were not supporting PvP any longer and people left, they had some horrible imbalances on the pvp server, due to pve fixes/patches...They threw the towel in on pvp, sooner than they did the rest of the game, back then.
Their is a decent chance I will give it a spin when it comes out, if it looks decent, but for my style of play, I do not know if it's limits fit me well. I do wish them luck on the kickstarter, I have been watching. I worry that a lot of the people that were going to give may have done so already, but hopefully it will fund for all of those wanting this vision of a game. I know how it is to be waiting, as I am not playing any mmo atm, and waiting on ArcheAge/EQNext and other titles that have more sandbox type play in them.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
1) He has nothing to show. The game seems to simply be a concept in his head at the moment with little to no actual development done yet. This would imply they are waiting to invest in the development until after the kickstarter succeeds or fails.
2) Without PvE I fear the game will lack variety. I like PvP and prefer it but I have learned over the years that PvP only MMO's are to slow paced to be all I need to keep me playing. Something like LoL, Age of Chivalry, and Battlefield are much faster paced than MMOs and thus can keep players entertained an MMO on the other hand lacks the pace and "On demand" type of PvP that those types of games offer. The PvE serves to fill in the gap and offer a change of pace. This game will lack this so I don't see it having lasting appeal for me.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
I agree on the latter part, but that's why MJ's made no attempts at hiding what this games trying to do. He's said time and time again it's going to be a niche game (lower player numbers, but more concentrated interests), and RVR/crafting/housing with little to no PVE may not be for most people. In a lot of his blog posts he talks about how he thinks there's a strong market for a niche game that offers this, because most mmo's don't do those specific items as well as they could of if focused on exclusively.
I agree I was hesitant to back something on kickstarter (which I'd never used before) when there's no real product to speak of yet, just ideas/principles/talk etc... However I think what it comes down to is that I enjoyed what he did in DAOC so much, and to an extent I really enjoyed WAR for a couple years too before it started to die.
What he's talking about, and offering, is what I've been craving for nearly a decade now, and I would gladly throw some of my spare money at the project for even a 10% chance that this turns into what I hope it will. I've tried mmo after mmo looking to recapture what I loved those 3 or 4 years in daoc, and a year or two in WAR, but none of them do it. For all I know, it could happen with this too, but I highly doubt it. I've read nearly everything he's posted and all the videos/websites, and his head's definitely in the right place on this one. Having your head in the right place BEFORE everything's been set in stone is a good thing. Obviously there's risk in going from theory to implementation, but that's why he wants so much of the backers feedback during the 2 year development. Sure there is risk it won't turn out exactly how we want or whatever, but also I think you take that risk with other games whether they have a playable demo or not. Just becuase there are some pretty graphics/basic gameplay, doesn't mean the long term gameplay will be there to keep you in it. TBH I'm more intrigued by everything he's said so far for the last 6 months, than some flashy demo would have achieved.
I'm also intrigued by the idea of having a voice in the early development of it with the backers forums/internal/alpha testing.
I guess I see it as backers like all the ideas he's put forward, and want to contribute towards making it happen, both financially with the kickstarter, as well as with feedback during internal/alhpa/beta testing.
if you're not in that boat, that's fine, you can check it out in 2 years at release. I'm sure the game will have 10X more players than original backers (just throwing out a random number).
Personally, I WANT to be on the ground floor of something that sounds revolutionary and epic. As with ANYTHING in life, there's risk of failure, but I think you take that risk with your money no matter what you do. I think you take that risk when you buy a game off a shelf too, because the endgame may suck haha.
As crazy as it sounds, most players prefer PvE. Even today when I play DAOC on a not-to-be-mentioned-on-MMORPG.COM-server, most folks are rolling alts doing PvE. When I bring up CU on that server that I can't mention on MMORPG because i'll be banned, the #1 complaint is the no-PvE aspect of the game; "every game needs some PvE" is the common reply.
If you look at WAR, most folks did PvE 90% of the time. Even going back to Shadowbane, where I was in a guild dedicated to PvP only action and we recruited PvP only players, we still had folks who would log out of thier guild toons and log on an alt to get their PvE fix.
Yet, when you read forums, or listen to people boast about how they love to do PvP, remember that almost all of them also like to PvE, but they don't mention it because it's not cool to like PvE.
All I'm trying to say is that a game that is 100% PvP w/crafting isn't going to appeal to that many people. I think it will be a close call to see if they hit the $2 million mark by the end of the month.
As crazy as it sounds, most players prefer PvE. Even today when I play DAOC on a not-to-be-mentioned-on-MMORPG.COM-server, most folks are rolling alts doing PvE. When I bring up CU on that server that I can't mention on MMORPG because i'll be banned, the #1 complaint is the no-PvE aspect of the game; "every game needs some PvE" is the common reply.
If you look at WAR, most folks did PvE 90% of the time. Even going back to Shadowbane, where I was in a guild dedicated to PvP only action and we recruited PvP only players, we still had folks who would log out of thier guild toons and log on an alt to get their PvE fix.
Yet, when you read forums, or listen to people boast about how they love to do PvP, remember that almost all of them also like to PvE, but they don't mention it because it's not cool to like PvE.
All I'm trying to say is that a game that is 100% PvP w/crafting isn't going to appeal to that many people. I think it will be a close call to see if they hit the $2 million mark by the end of the month.
Well I've always played multiple mmo's at once, because no single one does everything best or what I need.
I think they've got the right idea going after RVR/crafting/housing hardcore, with a semi-sandbox approach with the tri realm.
I don't agree that every games needs PVE. I think that's what we've been spoon feed a lot the last 10 years, becuase all these triple A mmo's want themselves to be the one stop shop for everything, but they don't do anything that well.
I'd much rather play one mmo that does RVR/crafting/housing/trirealm/sandbox the best, and for my PVE fix go play another game like GW2/TESO/WOW/whatever.
To be honest I think most mmo players are slaves to the modern mmo market, and their brains have been so rewired by the devs to think that an mmo HAS to have EVERYTHING (but be great at nothing). It keeps them from really having to get good at any particular thing.
DAoC was pretty grindy, especially ToA.... but even before then.
CU is supposed to have zero grind. Zilch. Nada. All exp is gained in RvR.
Like PerfArt said, it should be nearly impossible for CU to have any grind as there is no game before RvR, the game is RvR. You will not kill rats and deliver care packages to one NPC from another, you will start the game and immediately be able to participate in the conflict, either by fighting, crafting, or building.
I love that.
There won't be a PVE grind, doesn't mean there won't be any grind at all in terms of having to earn the gold to pay for better crafted gear, grind to level up your crafter character to top levels, grind to level up your realm abilities (whatever they call them) to a higher level etc.
My guess is that while you'll be able to participate in the conflict from the get go, you're still going to find yourself at a significant disadvantage in terms of Realm abilities, gear and just plain experience to the more seasoned character and you'll be "grinding" to improve these things to be able to compete more effectively.
Wouldn't be a MMORPG without some form of significant progression curve, which people frequently call "the grind"
Well, by that definition of "the grind," perhaps. However, I only call things a "grind" if they are not fun and what I actually want to be doing. To me, the word has negative connotations, and thus I do not associate it with positive things.
If I want to be crafting and RvRing, and I am doing that, even if I am not at the "top" of the progression curve, I personally do not find that to be grindy. But, everyone's opinion on the subject varies.
Well, once you throw the term "fun" into the mix, the defintion becomes entirely subjective. I find grinding in PVE to advance my character to be fun (a la DAOC) and I spent far more time in DAOC doing that than ever doing RVR/PVP. (had like over 10 level 50's in my long career)
Others of course didn't find that fun, and they are really looking forward to a title that won't have this mechanic, which I understand, glad to see a game is finally being made for them. (well hopefully)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are people blind to reality? Are people that rabid & disdainful that they just need to point the finger of blame so blindly to help ease the burden of disappointment from bad games / bad decisions of the past?
Never mind the fact that it is pretty god damn stupid and ignorant to blame the failures and all the problems of those two games (DAoC & Warhammer) on a single person like he did all the work and built both games entirely himself.
That is not to say MJ didn't make mistakes, he openly admits to that. But if you ever want to point blame on a single entity for both games problems then you should honestly look no further than EA, if you want to scapegoat, point fingers, and drag someone / something through the mud the entity your looking for is EA, evil, nazi, money grubbing, mentally retarded, EA.
You do realize the people with the power in these situations are the people with the money right? aka publishers / investors
They are the ones paying for the shit and if the developers and people like MJ don't appease them and either do what they say or atleast convince them that what they are doing is the right choice then the publishers / investors back out and take their money with them (the business equivently of taking your ball and going home ) leaving the developer high and dry which alot of the times means the game never finishes development and gets cancelled because it is very hard and unlikely to get another publisher / investor to pick up your project after it was dropped by someone else.
They don't care about making good games, they care about parting you of as much of your money as they possible can at all times.
If publishers / investors cared about making good games Kickstarter wouldn't be such a good option for developers.
Atleast now with Kickstarter developers can stay true to the vision of their games, make great games (the games they want to make not the ones the publishers / investors "think" will make the most money (aka WoW clones)), keep their promises to customers, and actually listen to their customers and react upon it since Kickstarter puts them in the position of power since they have the money so they can make the calls they need to in order to make people happy and make a great game.
People make mistakes, teams make mistakes, but mistakes can be identified and eventually fixed if your main goal is to make great games... But when your goal is to just make as much money as possible (aka EA) then you ignore everything else and just reach for the collective pockets of all gaming consumers.
Is any of this making sense?
PS EA not only destroyed DAoC & Warhammer, they also destroyed UO with the Trammel crap, and I'm still sore about that as well.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
May i ask if you supported other kickstarters ?
I also agree that pvp only is a turn off to a majority of people.
The reason most people dislike PvP is because it is done poorly.
Even DAoC had its share of problems with balancing, but it was a game founded on historical myths and legends, and was designed specifically towards RvR.
First of all, let me say I am a big fan of this project (as most of the regulars here know). That being said, I do think the people on the fence, or who are a bit skeptical of this game, and the backers here have been pretty fair about their points in this thread.
I just wanted to make a few points about some of the things being discussed here (and in other places).
I often hear people say: "There will be no PVE. This game will never appeal to most gamers. It will fail."
I don't think anyone would dispute those first two statements (although I fully expect something like a DF dungeon at one point or another in CU's lifetime but thats simply guessing at this point). You won't level up or gain power through fighting cpu driven opponents. It also will not appeal to most MMO players because of that fact - this is something the community and Mark Jacobs himself has pretty much stated from the get go. But, just because it won't be big or attract the average gamer, doesn't mean it will fail.
The first MMOs were a much smaller niche market back in the day and without those relatively small (by many in today's standard) pioneers we would have never seen the likes of mmorpgs with 10 million subscribers. It has certainly become a larger market, but there were a core of niche gamers that liked many of the features found in those classic MMO's, and I don't think they have ever gone away - they simply aren't a big enough group to matter to most game companies these days. So, I don't believe CU has to cater to typical MMO player to be successful. There are many different levels of success. For a game such as this, a low, dedicated, player base would be such IMO.
Finally, I know there is a little issue of hype about this game and many, who see little reason to get excited about the game in it's current state, often appear annoyed with fans who are trying to spread it's word or whom are very excited about this project. I think the message these doubters or skeptics are saying as a whole is valid (although not always delivered with tact), but please consider: If this project doesn't fund, this game will not be made. The mmo industry has seemed to forget this niche of gamers. For every 9 gamers who are turned off by CU, there is 1 who has been looking for this exact type of game (it could be 1 out of 20 - but you get the point). Many of us feel a responsibility to reach out to that 1 out of 10, whether they are players who love crafting, rvr, an old school type of mmo, whatever, and to make them aware there is a project that they may be interested in. It's a fine line to walk as a community and for CSE, between hype and getting the word out, but it must be walked as close as possible (and it's easy to cross even from the best intentioned!). If we don't help, there is a good chance that this won't happen.
Finally, I hope, and believe, that the supporters understand it probably won't be the greatest game ever, because that only leads to dissapointment, but I think there is good reason to have faith that if anyone can pull this type of game off that Mark, Andrew, and the team will do it. Also, although there isn't much in stone right now as far as CU goes, one thing is true: the group of fans supporting this game have been very supportive and a postive group to be around. As someone who has been playing these games for way too long, from UO to GW2, the community has been refreshing and something that will lend much to making this game successful for the niche it is targeting.
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
May i ask if you supported other kickstarters ?
I also agree that pvp only is a turn off to a majority of people.
The reason most people dislike PvP is because it is done poorly.
Even DAoC had its share of problems with balancing, but it was a game founded on historical myths and legends, and was designed specifically towards RvR.
Reguardless if DAoC was designed with the RvR in mind, the systems was incredibly simple, which is good. What we have seen now is horribly over engineered games when it comes to pvp. Systems upon systems that just make it a total cluster-fuck. What people miss out on is the simplcity of it. Why was pvp in wow so pipular before battlegrounds? Because it was simple. However, some people dont like to just kill other people they like the idea of going to an area nad killing things. Some people DO enjoy that aspect of the game, while i do not understand the idea of farming a single mob for hours to get something. People do it and enjoy it and they are a large chunk of the player base.
I personally belive that we are not as niche as people think we are, and if this game funds im sure we will have alot of people.
TOA, WAR, EA were all hard lessons that needed to be experienced to be learned, IMO. Now that they are behind Mark Jacobs and part of his work history, he can use that experience to sidestep design pitfalls. The greatest sluggers in baseball history had to strike out way more times than they hit homeruns to become great players. I personally feel that MJ is "seasoned" in this respect and is in his element within a small studio.
As to the comment about vaporware...I would be more willing to side with that statement if Mark didn't already have a proven track record with DAoC, and several other games that were not WAR.
I agree that a lot of people out there won't be able to get past the concept of no PVE. MMOers are just so accustomed to the comfort of the rail PVE quest grind.
Its also true that not that many people will appreciate the design concepts outlined in the FPs as opposed to a flashy gameplay video.
I suppose that is the risk of taking a niche game that requires strong MMO RvR knowledge to KS.
TOA, WAR, EA were all hard lessons that needed to be experienced to be learned, IMO.
TOA was not a hard lesson that needed to be experienced. It was just copying&pasting things EQ did that was explicitly rejected when DAOC was originally designed. A major original selling point of the game was that it was not another EQ where you had to camp mobs for hours or days and kill them over and over to get a rare drop or go on hours long raids with dozens of other players in order to acquire the best gear. And then they released an expansion that prominently featured all of that. Mark got greedy and tried to expand out of the successful niche he had created to chase after EQ's player base and $. This was repeated with the Catacombs expansion that added many short "kill 10 x" quests to make DAOC more like the just released MMO World of Warcraft.
It's an easy lesson that shouldn't have needed to be learned. Stick to your principles and vision. Don't try to turn your game into somebody else's game just because that other game has more players. Let's hope the lesson sticks this time.
I agree that a lot of people out there won't be able to get past the concept of no PVE. MMOers are just so accustomed to the comfort of the rail PVE quest grind.
Its also true that not that many people will appreciate the design concepts outlined in the FPs as opposed to a flashy gameplay video.
I suppose that is the risk of taking a niche game that requires strong MMO RvR knowledge to KS.
I think the weird thing about it is that while players might be so used to PvE grind that they don't know how to adopt to something else, I'm pretty sure that developers have seen the financial pitfalls of a PvE game and are doing everything they can to minimize PvE themeparks going forward. It just isn't financially viable to make a WoW clone, as proven time and time again. Content cannot be created fast enough.
Somehow, the success of EVE and other sandbox oriented games MUST become the mainstream MMO, purely for financial reasons. PvE grind games are going to be a thing of the past.
But after seeing how WAR Online died, I fear spending money on Camelot Unchained.
Monthly fee in a PvP game is not solid these days.
There's no gameplay or anything yet from this game so I have to hold back.
People who PvP rarely buy cosmetic stuff.
Supporter here but I feel it should be noted, plenty of people in games like LoL buy extra skins for their characters. So this statement isn't entirely true. Yes I would imagine most of the revenue comes from buying actual heroes but the skins exist for a reason and continue to be made for a reason so they have to be profitable. Regardless I totally understand how people can be distrustful of something that doesn't exist especially with a game like CU, with the little physical or digital evidence they have shown. I, like others, felt the passion and time that has been put in by CSE thus far was enough to warrent backing. Plenty of time left on the kickstarter and it's up to CSE to show you enough information about the game to make you a backer. All the current backers can do is spread the word. If they can't provide enough information to gather enough support to fund the failure falls on them. I want this game to succeed as do many others. The lack of areas such as PvE are a turn off but perhaps through stretch goals or just more information being released they can draw some of those people in (RvR/PvE dungeons gained through owning the most objectives anyone?).
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
I have to admit i am on the fence on this one also and wont part with my hard earned money till it can be proved to me it will be a good game.
I am one of those folks who likes a little PvE mixed in with lots of PvP so i am going to have to wait because this to my understanding wont be coming out for along time anyway.
I don't think this game is a hard sell to the people that want this type of game. A lot of you couldn't wait for KS to begin. The problem being in this day and age how many people want this game? Dont take that as an insult. Don't get all defensive. I wish nothing but the best for this project but it is a question that KS will in part answer.
So far the project only has 5,146 backers. Yes, they are very passionate backers and it's only been a few days. I understand that. It could be a sign though that this style of game does not interest enough people or it could be that a lot of people do not trust KS. It could also be that no one knows about it. Either way this game is not a hard sell. It will really be the only modern MMO of it's kind. I really hope this project does amazingly well and ushers in a new wave of MMORPG development that focuses on niche games.
Camelot: Unchained has so much promise for a new style of online gaming...
There has been nothing said by Jabocs that points to something actually new, just a bunch of old ideas with some newer ones thrown together to update DaoC.
The one and only MMO announced over the last few years that actually points to something ACTUALLY new is Shroud of the Avatar and I have no intention of backing that game either despite some of the actual great ideas being spoken about, the overall game design doesnt interest me.
And there lies the problem for CU...its DaoC, a hard sell because the only people that thought it was good, are some of the players which wasnt many...no, it doesnt actually matter that it seemed like a lot for its time...because it wasnt. UO, EQ1, SWG, Lineage 1, FFXI all had more players and it was at a time when there werent many MMORPGers. It would be like a company trying to sell betamax 2 or Laserdisc 2, few would care other than those that had the first iteration.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Camelot: Unchained has so much promise for a new style of online gaming...
There has been nothing said by Jabocs that points to something actually new, just a bunch of old ideas with some newer ones thrown together to update DaoC.
The one and only MMO announced over the last few years that actually points to something ACTUALLY new is Shroud of the Avatar and I have no intention of backing that game either despite some of the actual great ideas being spoken about, the overall game design doesnt interest me.
And there lies the problem for CU...its DaoC, a hard sell because the only people that thought it was good, are some of the players which wasnt many...no, it doesnt actually matter that it seemed like a lot for its time...because it wasnt. UO, EQ1, SWG, Lineage 1, FFXI all had more players and it was at a time when there werent many MMORPGers. It would be like a company trying to sell betamax 2 or Laserdisc 2, few would care other than those that had the first iteration.
Shroud of the Avatar is not an MMORPG, though.
Edit: To clarify, Shroud of the Avatar will have a couple online modes, but they are not the same as an actual MMORPG.
Comments
For the people that are on the fence about this. May i ask whats holding you back? Is it because the game is mostly an idea with some art ? Is it the fact that theres only PvP in the game? Is it because of MJ himself?
I ask because we are early enough that there can be a discussion about things going forward. Mark has said in a few posts that he loved Darkness Falls. Maybe it wont work the same way in terms of drops and the like but it could be something where theres crafter nodes in there that have some value. What if a DF style area had a forge for making items from the matierls inside. People would have to fight over it to get to that area to make the items, perhaps making the items takes some time so now it becomes something that needs to be held. The other realms dont want you to have it so it becomes a fight wheil you try to protect your crafters.
While it does not include the pve mobs of the past the value is still there for players to attack and hold this area. So i ask what would you want to see/hear to make you change your mind.
Never forget that DAoC was actually an indie game developed by an indie company. But it turned to be a huge success.
The tip for
The win is
cooperation.
I feel like most mmo's out there have greath bredth, but poor depth. Said another way, they are good at a lot of things, but masters of nothing.
I foresee CU as being master of what it attempts to do, but don't look to it for your one stop shop for everything. Also I think a large portion of the fun gameplay is going to be player generated.
This fills a niche I definitely want to play, that no other mmo is doing well. However I may still wanna go mindlessless bash NPC skulls in, or raid, or quest, or whatever.... so I may play other games still, which is fine.
I prefer that, so that I get the quality RVR type experience I want, and can look elsewhere for the other things.
I think people are just used to games having EVERYTHING in them, but modern (newer) mmoers don't realize they're sacrificing quality of content/gameplay for quantity of content/gameplay.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
I am on the fence because this game is just a concept. Nothing solid is done. There is no playable demo, etc. Why support something that MAY OR MAY NOT EVER EXSIST? VAPOURWARE is just that VAPOUR. Until there is something concrete, I will reserve my support or judgement.
Also, just having PvP is a turn off to most people and that is a fact.
May i ask if you supported other kickstarters ?
I also agree that pvp only is a turn off to a majority of people.
I liked the idea, but I am on the fence, because I usually do a lot of crafting, harvesting, pve, pvp, I play everything, and having the variety keeps me from getting burned out/bored. I was a fan of DAoC, but I do not know how I feel about my aspects of long term play without PvE. I really debated giving money, but the limits of the game nagged me.
I am not being critical about his choice, I understand they have a budget, a game only centered on pvp is probably the best way to balance it and fastest....Usually pve skills will break pvp, or vice versa. Like Vanguard, they announced they were not supporting PvP any longer and people left, they had some horrible imbalances on the pvp server, due to pve fixes/patches...They threw the towel in on pvp, sooner than they did the rest of the game, back then.
Their is a decent chance I will give it a spin when it comes out, if it looks decent, but for my style of play, I do not know if it's limits fit me well. I do wish them luck on the kickstarter, I have been watching. I worry that a lot of the people that were going to give may have done so already, but hopefully it will fund for all of those wanting this vision of a game. I know how it is to be waiting, as I am not playing any mmo atm, and waiting on ArcheAge/EQNext and other titles that have more sandbox type play in them.
1) He has nothing to show. The game seems to simply be a concept in his head at the moment with little to no actual development done yet. This would imply they are waiting to invest in the development until after the kickstarter succeeds or fails.
2) Without PvE I fear the game will lack variety. I like PvP and prefer it but I have learned over the years that PvP only MMO's are to slow paced to be all I need to keep me playing. Something like LoL, Age of Chivalry, and Battlefield are much faster paced than MMOs and thus can keep players entertained an MMO on the other hand lacks the pace and "On demand" type of PvP that those types of games offer. The PvE serves to fill in the gap and offer a change of pace. This game will lack this so I don't see it having lasting appeal for me.
I have other concerns but these are the main two.
I agree on the latter part, but that's why MJ's made no attempts at hiding what this games trying to do. He's said time and time again it's going to be a niche game (lower player numbers, but more concentrated interests), and RVR/crafting/housing with little to no PVE may not be for most people. In a lot of his blog posts he talks about how he thinks there's a strong market for a niche game that offers this, because most mmo's don't do those specific items as well as they could of if focused on exclusively.
I agree I was hesitant to back something on kickstarter (which I'd never used before) when there's no real product to speak of yet, just ideas/principles/talk etc... However I think what it comes down to is that I enjoyed what he did in DAOC so much, and to an extent I really enjoyed WAR for a couple years too before it started to die.
What he's talking about, and offering, is what I've been craving for nearly a decade now, and I would gladly throw some of my spare money at the project for even a 10% chance that this turns into what I hope it will. I've tried mmo after mmo looking to recapture what I loved those 3 or 4 years in daoc, and a year or two in WAR, but none of them do it. For all I know, it could happen with this too, but I highly doubt it. I've read nearly everything he's posted and all the videos/websites, and his head's definitely in the right place on this one. Having your head in the right place BEFORE everything's been set in stone is a good thing. Obviously there's risk in going from theory to implementation, but that's why he wants so much of the backers feedback during the 2 year development. Sure there is risk it won't turn out exactly how we want or whatever, but also I think you take that risk with other games whether they have a playable demo or not. Just becuase there are some pretty graphics/basic gameplay, doesn't mean the long term gameplay will be there to keep you in it. TBH I'm more intrigued by everything he's said so far for the last 6 months, than some flashy demo would have achieved.
I'm also intrigued by the idea of having a voice in the early development of it with the backers forums/internal/alpha testing.
I guess I see it as backers like all the ideas he's put forward, and want to contribute towards making it happen, both financially with the kickstarter, as well as with feedback during internal/alhpa/beta testing.
if you're not in that boat, that's fine, you can check it out in 2 years at release. I'm sure the game will have 10X more players than original backers (just throwing out a random number).
Personally, I WANT to be on the ground floor of something that sounds revolutionary and epic. As with ANYTHING in life, there's risk of failure, but I think you take that risk with your money no matter what you do. I think you take that risk when you buy a game off a shelf too, because the endgame may suck haha.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
As crazy as it sounds, most players prefer PvE. Even today when I play DAOC on a not-to-be-mentioned-on-MMORPG.COM-server, most folks are rolling alts doing PvE. When I bring up CU on that server that I can't mention on MMORPG because i'll be banned, the #1 complaint is the no-PvE aspect of the game; "every game needs some PvE" is the common reply.
If you look at WAR, most folks did PvE 90% of the time. Even going back to Shadowbane, where I was in a guild dedicated to PvP only action and we recruited PvP only players, we still had folks who would log out of thier guild toons and log on an alt to get their PvE fix.
Yet, when you read forums, or listen to people boast about how they love to do PvP, remember that almost all of them also like to PvE, but they don't mention it because it's not cool to like PvE.
All I'm trying to say is that a game that is 100% PvP w/crafting isn't going to appeal to that many people. I think it will be a close call to see if they hit the $2 million mark by the end of the month.
Well I've always played multiple mmo's at once, because no single one does everything best or what I need.
I think they've got the right idea going after RVR/crafting/housing hardcore, with a semi-sandbox approach with the tri realm.
I don't agree that every games needs PVE. I think that's what we've been spoon feed a lot the last 10 years, becuase all these triple A mmo's want themselves to be the one stop shop for everything, but they don't do anything that well.
I'd much rather play one mmo that does RVR/crafting/housing/trirealm/sandbox the best, and for my PVE fix go play another game like GW2/TESO/WOW/whatever.
To be honest I think most mmo players are slaves to the modern mmo market, and their brains have been so rewired by the devs to think that an mmo HAS to have EVERYTHING (but be great at nothing). It keeps them from really having to get good at any particular thing.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Well, once you throw the term "fun" into the mix, the defintion becomes entirely subjective. I find grinding in PVE to advance my character to be fun (a la DAOC) and I spent far more time in DAOC doing that than ever doing RVR/PVP. (had like over 10 level 50's in my long career)
Others of course didn't find that fun, and they are really looking forward to a title that won't have this mechanic, which I understand, glad to see a game is finally being made for them. (well hopefully)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are people blind to reality? Are people that rabid & disdainful that they just need to point the finger of blame so blindly to help ease the burden of disappointment from bad games / bad decisions of the past?
Never mind the fact that it is pretty god damn stupid and ignorant to blame the failures and all the problems of those two games (DAoC & Warhammer) on a single person like he did all the work and built both games entirely himself.
That is not to say MJ didn't make mistakes, he openly admits to that. But if you ever want to point blame on a single entity for both games problems then you should honestly look no further than EA, if you want to scapegoat, point fingers, and drag someone / something through the mud the entity your looking for is EA, evil, nazi, money grubbing, mentally retarded, EA.
You do realize the people with the power in these situations are the people with the money right? aka publishers / investors
They are the ones paying for the shit and if the developers and people like MJ don't appease them and either do what they say or atleast convince them that what they are doing is the right choice then the publishers / investors back out and take their money with them (the business equivently of taking your ball and going home ) leaving the developer high and dry which alot of the times means the game never finishes development and gets cancelled because it is very hard and unlikely to get another publisher / investor to pick up your project after it was dropped by someone else.
They don't care about making good games, they care about parting you of as much of your money as they possible can at all times.
If publishers / investors cared about making good games Kickstarter wouldn't be such a good option for developers.
Atleast now with Kickstarter developers can stay true to the vision of their games, make great games (the games they want to make not the ones the publishers / investors "think" will make the most money (aka WoW clones)), keep their promises to customers, and actually listen to their customers and react upon it since Kickstarter puts them in the position of power since they have the money so they can make the calls they need to in order to make people happy and make a great game.
People make mistakes, teams make mistakes, but mistakes can be identified and eventually fixed if your main goal is to make great games... But when your goal is to just make as much money as possible (aka EA) then you ignore everything else and just reach for the collective pockets of all gaming consumers.
Is any of this making sense?
PS EA not only destroyed DAoC & Warhammer, they also destroyed UO with the Trammel crap, and I'm still sore about that as well.
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The reason most people dislike PvP is because it is done poorly.
Even DAoC had its share of problems with balancing, but it was a game founded on historical myths and legends, and was designed specifically towards RvR.
First of all, let me say I am a big fan of this project (as most of the regulars here know). That being said, I do think the people on the fence, or who are a bit skeptical of this game, and the backers here have been pretty fair about their points in this thread.
I just wanted to make a few points about some of the things being discussed here (and in other places).
I often hear people say: "There will be no PVE. This game will never appeal to most gamers. It will fail."
I don't think anyone would dispute those first two statements (although I fully expect something like a DF dungeon at one point or another in CU's lifetime but thats simply guessing at this point). You won't level up or gain power through fighting cpu driven opponents. It also will not appeal to most MMO players because of that fact - this is something the community and Mark Jacobs himself has pretty much stated from the get go. But, just because it won't be big or attract the average gamer, doesn't mean it will fail.
The first MMOs were a much smaller niche market back in the day and without those relatively small (by many in today's standard) pioneers we would have never seen the likes of mmorpgs with 10 million subscribers. It has certainly become a larger market, but there were a core of niche gamers that liked many of the features found in those classic MMO's, and I don't think they have ever gone away - they simply aren't a big enough group to matter to most game companies these days. So, I don't believe CU has to cater to typical MMO player to be successful. There are many different levels of success. For a game such as this, a low, dedicated, player base would be such IMO.
Finally, I know there is a little issue of hype about this game and many, who see little reason to get excited about the game in it's current state, often appear annoyed with fans who are trying to spread it's word or whom are very excited about this project. I think the message these doubters or skeptics are saying as a whole is valid (although not always delivered with tact), but please consider: If this project doesn't fund, this game will not be made. The mmo industry has seemed to forget this niche of gamers. For every 9 gamers who are turned off by CU, there is 1 who has been looking for this exact type of game (it could be 1 out of 20 - but you get the point). Many of us feel a responsibility to reach out to that 1 out of 10, whether they are players who love crafting, rvr, an old school type of mmo, whatever, and to make them aware there is a project that they may be interested in. It's a fine line to walk as a community and for CSE, between hype and getting the word out, but it must be walked as close as possible (and it's easy to cross even from the best intentioned!). If we don't help, there is a good chance that this won't happen.
Finally, I hope, and believe, that the supporters understand it probably won't be the greatest game ever, because that only leads to dissapointment, but I think there is good reason to have faith that if anyone can pull this type of game off that Mark, Andrew, and the team will do it. Also, although there isn't much in stone right now as far as CU goes, one thing is true: the group of fans supporting this game have been very supportive and a postive group to be around. As someone who has been playing these games for way too long, from UO to GW2, the community has been refreshing and something that will lend much to making this game successful for the niche it is targeting.
Reguardless if DAoC was designed with the RvR in mind, the systems was incredibly simple, which is good. What we have seen now is horribly over engineered games when it comes to pvp. Systems upon systems that just make it a total cluster-fuck. What people miss out on is the simplcity of it. Why was pvp in wow so pipular before battlegrounds? Because it was simple. However, some people dont like to just kill other people they like the idea of going to an area nad killing things. Some people DO enjoy that aspect of the game, while i do not understand the idea of farming a single mob for hours to get something. People do it and enjoy it and they are a large chunk of the player base.
I personally belive that we are not as niche as people think we are, and if this game funds im sure we will have alot of people.
TOA, WAR, EA were all hard lessons that needed to be experienced to be learned, IMO. Now that they are behind Mark Jacobs and part of his work history, he can use that experience to sidestep design pitfalls. The greatest sluggers in baseball history had to strike out way more times than they hit homeruns to become great players. I personally feel that MJ is "seasoned" in this respect and is in his element within a small studio.
As to the comment about vaporware...I would be more willing to side with that statement if Mark didn't already have a proven track record with DAoC, and several other games that were not WAR.
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I agree that a lot of people out there won't be able to get past the concept of no PVE. MMOers are just so accustomed to the comfort of the rail PVE quest grind.
Its also true that not that many people will appreciate the design concepts outlined in the FPs as opposed to a flashy gameplay video.
I suppose that is the risk of taking a niche game that requires strong MMO RvR knowledge to KS.
TOA was not a hard lesson that needed to be experienced. It was just copying&pasting things EQ did that was explicitly rejected when DAOC was originally designed. A major original selling point of the game was that it was not another EQ where you had to camp mobs for hours or days and kill them over and over to get a rare drop or go on hours long raids with dozens of other players in order to acquire the best gear. And then they released an expansion that prominently featured all of that. Mark got greedy and tried to expand out of the successful niche he had created to chase after EQ's player base and $. This was repeated with the Catacombs expansion that added many short "kill 10 x" quests to make DAOC more like the just released MMO World of Warcraft.
It's an easy lesson that shouldn't have needed to be learned. Stick to your principles and vision. Don't try to turn your game into somebody else's game just because that other game has more players. Let's hope the lesson sticks this time.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
I think the weird thing about it is that while players might be so used to PvE grind that they don't know how to adopt to something else, I'm pretty sure that developers have seen the financial pitfalls of a PvE game and are doing everything they can to minimize PvE themeparks going forward. It just isn't financially viable to make a WoW clone, as proven time and time again. Content cannot be created fast enough.
Somehow, the success of EVE and other sandbox oriented games MUST become the mainstream MMO, purely for financial reasons. PvE grind games are going to be a thing of the past.
Supporter here but I feel it should be noted, plenty of people in games like LoL buy extra skins for their characters. So this statement isn't entirely true. Yes I would imagine most of the revenue comes from buying actual heroes but the skins exist for a reason and continue to be made for a reason so they have to be profitable. Regardless I totally understand how people can be distrustful of something that doesn't exist especially with a game like CU, with the little physical or digital evidence they have shown. I, like others, felt the passion and time that has been put in by CSE thus far was enough to warrent backing. Plenty of time left on the kickstarter and it's up to CSE to show you enough information about the game to make you a backer. All the current backers can do is spread the word. If they can't provide enough information to gather enough support to fund the failure falls on them. I want this game to succeed as do many others. The lack of areas such as PvE are a turn off but perhaps through stretch goals or just more information being released they can draw some of those people in (RvR/PvE dungeons gained through owning the most objectives anyone?).
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
I have to admit i am on the fence on this one also and wont part with my hard earned money till it can be proved to me it will be a good game.
I am one of those folks who likes a little PvE mixed in with lots of PvP so i am going to have to wait because this to my understanding wont be coming out for along time anyway.
I don't think this game is a hard sell to the people that want this type of game. A lot of you couldn't wait for KS to begin. The problem being in this day and age how many people want this game? Dont take that as an insult. Don't get all defensive. I wish nothing but the best for this project but it is a question that KS will in part answer.
So far the project only has 5,146 backers. Yes, they are very passionate backers and it's only been a few days. I understand that. It could be a sign though that this style of game does not interest enough people or it could be that a lot of people do not trust KS. It could also be that no one knows about it. Either way this game is not a hard sell. It will really be the only modern MMO of it's kind. I really hope this project does amazingly well and ushers in a new wave of MMORPG development that focuses on niche games.
There has been nothing said by Jabocs that points to something actually new, just a bunch of old ideas with some newer ones thrown together to update DaoC.
The one and only MMO announced over the last few years that actually points to something ACTUALLY new is Shroud of the Avatar and I have no intention of backing that game either despite some of the actual great ideas being spoken about, the overall game design doesnt interest me.
And there lies the problem for CU...its DaoC, a hard sell because the only people that thought it was good, are some of the players which wasnt many...no, it doesnt actually matter that it seemed like a lot for its time...because it wasnt. UO, EQ1, SWG, Lineage 1, FFXI all had more players and it was at a time when there werent many MMORPGers. It would be like a company trying to sell betamax 2 or Laserdisc 2, few would care other than those that had the first iteration.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Shroud of the Avatar is not an MMORPG, though.
Edit: To clarify, Shroud of the Avatar will have a couple online modes, but they are not the same as an actual MMORPG.
For 25$ is a cheap game you can try out in about 2 years.
For those who haven't played a three realm open world mmo the concept may sound strange, but give this game a chance to surprise you.