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Why pledge ? there's nothing to see yet ! : my point of view
BowbowDAoC
Member UncommonPosts: 472
I know many people are a bit sceptical about pledging the Camelot Unchained Kickstarter, wich in somewhat understandable, but if you give me a few minutes i'll explain to you why i did pledge, while having the exact same "visual information" as anyone
The conception that the more money you put into making a game, the better it will be, is a no go for me, and i'll explain my thoughts the best i can.
I'll use WAR and DAoC to explain it.
I think there was too much work done in WAR, too many "useless" things implemented, i dont remember much since i did not play very long. But i remember that you didnt have much thing to actually look for, since everything was shown to you on your mini map, quests were not quests, they were merely technicalities, as you were told from beginning to end what you had to do, where, when, and almost how. There was too many different skills/spells that were maybe different from each others, but didnt actually bring depth to the game itself.
Emphasis was put where it didnt really matter (my guess is lets say a big thank you to EA for that, for trying to copy WoW), i dont know how much WAR costed to make, but i'm guessing alot more than DAoC.
DAoC (pre ToA no need to mention) had on the other hand exactly what it needed, no more, no less. good combat system, REAL quests (compared to WAR where on top of the quest, there was all the extras around it that also needed time and money invested in). in DAoC for your quest oyu had a text to read, than the rest was up to you. it made the quests feels like real quests, and doing it so simple actually cost much less. keep capturing didnt involve insta gratification that needs more programming, more items created, more of evertyhing.... DAoC you had bonuses or minues, thats it...Much simpler, but way more effective.
The animations attached to each skills or spells were pretty simple, but it was perfect.
Even if we go down to small details, like i.e. the icons representing your spells and skills. in DAoC there were so simple ! you had a symbol, with some triangles on some of the 4 sides of the swuare to indicate what was the positionnal attack for that skill. in WAR they were much more detailed (so it also means more work), but tell me, did that small icon made the game better because it was bright and shiny ? not really.
There is tons of examples like that we could go on and on, but just those few are enough for me to come down to one single point.
Even a small Studio like CSE can make a great game without needed 50 millions. if you removed all the extra useless things found in most mmos todays, those mmos would probably be even better than what they are now, because most studios are blinding us with "omg everything is so cool and shiny looking!", they put money on stuffs that are simply too much.
So when Mark Jacobs tells us he hates throwing money out the window while making a game, it also means what i described above.
He can make a greater mmo than most of whats out there, with less, simply because putting too much cost money, and remove quite a few fun factors.
And on a side note, (although i dont have the numbers) i think they are as many people who are still playing DAoC as people playing WAR, and remember DAoC is 12-13 years old...DAoC's graphics are much lower quality than WAR, but the game's QUALITY is so much better in DAoC, and in DAoC, Mark Jacobs had much more control on what was put in the game, compared to WAR with EA and Games Workshop behind him.
So to those still doubting about CU, because there is no footage yet, not much to look at, remember that if they had wanted to blind you it could have been so easy to do, instead he's being honest, so honest he simply wont accept to lure you into his game with some magician's trick to make you one way while the "real stuff" is happening the other way.
Its simple, really...
You should not judge a book by his cover.
Thanks for reading, hoping it provided another perspective to your dilemna or decision about pledging.
I hope to see you all in CU !
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR
Comments
Nice post.
Things are really weird around here today. Lots of negativity and people afraid that the KS might not fund. There's still a long way to go and I am absolutely sure that CSE has plenty more info to share over the course of the campaign and already has their updates planned out well in advance. Keep in mind we are still really early into the campaign. There's still plenty of time left to go and there will be plenty of new stuff to see in the very near future.
I have never pledged to a KS but I have been considering throwing $25-50 bucks at this one. And I only am considering it because of who is involved and the concept they have.
I started playing DAoC the week of release and played for over 5 years. I was in the early closed Beta of Warhammer, and played that at release and for about a year after. So I do love the idea of CU and have high hopes.
I know Mark and his team are legit and will make a great game or give it a hell of a try either way. I just personally dont like the idea of kickstarter. Charitable donations for a video game just is not what I would usually give money too. There are alot of causes to give for and for me thats just not one. Thats jusy my opinion and I have no problem with what other people do with their money. Not my business or concern.
Having said that I will probably donate a little to KS. It would be a 1st and probably only time tho. Either way I wish Mark and his team all the best. If they get it up and released they have a buyer and supporter here for sure.
My take is more "why pledge ever" as opposed to just this game. MMO's have terrible track records for the past decade and false promises and overexaggeration run rampant with every development. At this point you just don't care about money at all or you are a fool to support any project like this. Paying people before they work never breeds a solid product.
None of that even includes how out of touch Mark Jacobs is with the MMO world in 2013, having only Warhammer Online(one of the worst MMO's i've ever played) to show for himself since DAoC, a lifetime ago. Good developers in the year 2000 != a good developer in 2015, I predict a player funded Vanguard.
You make some fair points about MMO's. I would normally agree with you about paying before something is made being a bad concept, but I think for this type of game, we (this niche of gamers) may not have many other options as far as games like this, (dedicated fantasy based old school RVR mmo with crafting and housing). This was the first KS project I ever backed.
About Warhammer, my family and I played it for quite a bit - almost two years (although it wasn't perfect), so there are people that feel strongly the opposite when you in that regard - even if addmittedly in the minority. The people that will support this game at this stage are a relatively small amount but as a fan of RVR centric games, I think you can't go wrong supporting one of the main people behind DAoC and Warhammer - they did it as well or better than any other imo.
I would be terribly worried if there were a lot to see. This is supposed to be a "kickstart." If the game were in late Beta stage and then they went to KS to raise the funding to finish, wouldn't that indicate a huge management issue (not as bad as the U.S. government, but still huge)?
One of the things that draws me to this project is the possibility of offering suggestions to make it better. That wouldn't be possible if it were already polished and ready to go.
I had never heard of KS before this game, and I have never paid more than $100 for a game before playing it (i.e. for a pretty box) prior to this (and trust me, it's not because I don't have the money to spend), but I'm in for over $400 if this funds, maybe more depending on how things go in the next few weeks. I played DAOC, and still play WAR. I know Mark can put together a good MMO, so I'm confident this game will function. The only question I have is: will the player base be the kind that jump from game to game, or will it be a long term community? As long as it settles into the latter, my pledge will be more than worth it.
I have pledged to several KS's and all of then had significantly more information and specifics established than CU, this is it's weakness and that's the main reason I won't pledge to this one despite being a DAoC player for 9 years.
I am still watching it, maybe a few months after it releases I might try it depending on how well it's done.
It's not blinding, it's just very very dark in there and I for one will wait for the lights to turn own instead of stumbling in the gloom.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
It's a 30-day information marathon.
If you are hesitant, just wait and read all the updates as they come... if you at the end still feel that it's not for you...just don't pledge.
This is a sales pitch for the investors, the backers are the investors and we will have allot of power over how the game will look at the end.
Mark Jacobs lost much credibility in many peoples eyes with WAR, but he's been very open about CU and I think he has learned allot from the games he's been part over the years.
I have been involved in a couple of KS-games and I must say this is the most open and informative one I have been involved in so far.
Fair enough; however, regarding "maybe a few months after it releases I might try it," if it does not get funded, it may not be developed at all. This is why I pledged - if it does not get made we will never know how it would have turned out.
Sometimes I just don't understand the hype on this game...There isn't a single gameplay or movie clip on the internet and people say: This is the best game ever...i read it all before (remember swtor?)
Stop overhyping a game, the more the dissapointment hurts.....
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
Edgar Allan Poe
I do not believe gameplay or trailers from early development are always very useful. How many games had great footage and sucked? Many! Aliens: Colonial Marines is a great recent example.
Also, I do not recall anyone saying this is the best game ever - it is not even a game yet! It is a great concept for those into RvR. As to how it turns out, well, hopefully it will get made and be great, but right now it is just a good idea some people want to see funded.
Thank you so much for your deep concern of our mental state. I have not seen anyone say this is the best game ever... I have seen a few people say that this COULD be the best game ever.. A bit of difference there if I am not mistaken.
You went there? Yes it is useful to see the game and how it develops. Right now all we have is a beggar on the street saying this will be great. Sorry - not going there.
If you know what this game is all about and you still don't understand why we are excited, then you probably aren't included in the niche they are targetting. This game is NOTHING like swtor, and to compare it to that is just ridiculous. This is an RvR ONLY game with no PvE and nothing else to water down the core gameplay. THAT is why we are excited.The thing that I fail to understand is why people like you feel the need to come in here and drop your negativity on us and try to bring us down. I'm sorry if you aren't into the concept, but a lot of us are. Feel free to go frequent the forums of a more established game like WoW if that is your forte.
Just inform yourself. If you have interest in a decent rvr game with a dedicated community, you will be excited about this one.
All I can say about the missing gameplay clips for camelot unchained: MJ is good in creating immersive worlds with great gameplay.
MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
We as gamers have shown that we will throw our money at anything with the right advertisement even if it is the worst game ever created. Look at why MMOs are the way the are and why gaming companies don't want a long running game, they will loose money and have over inflated the cost of production. We let it all happen we have to take responsability for this and for the changes that need to be made. True gamers unite!
We as gamers have shown that we will throw our money at anything with the right advertisement even if it is the worst game ever created. Look at why MMOs are the way the are and why gaming companies don't want a long running game, they will loose money and have over inflated the cost of production. We let it all happen we have to take responsability for this and for the changes that need to be made. True gamers unite!
You have a good point, but that's also the reason I backed this game. There isn't really nonsense marketing being thrown in your face. They are laying out their plan for the game, and making it clear they are targeting a niche audience. Kickstarter is a great way to break away from those mainstream games.Sure there is marketing being thrown in our face - the fans are doing for them. Why should they pay to have it done when people will do it for you.....
A beggar? All I see is a guy who gives us the oppertunity of a daoc (rvr-part only) successor. I can't see why people react so emotional in their postings against CU
MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
I don't mind throwing $250 at this for even the 1% chance it brings back the epicness of DAOC rvr, but with a more modern twist to it all. If it succeeds, I will play this for AT LEAST 3 or 4 years, if not 10 years. If it fails, I don't feel like $250 was a big loss to at least give it a shot.
To be honest I'm bored of PVE, even though I enjoyed it a lot in many gamers over the past 10 years. All these new mmos add a twist to the same old PVE experience, but after a few months it just feels like more of the same.
I guess different people have different tolerance levels for how much money they put into what, but man, if I were to add up how much money I've spent on mmo's the past 10 years, $250 is nothing compared to that. I would gladly pay that for a chance that this will succeeed.
Plus I agree with all the principles, and want to see this succeed, so I'm going to try to help both financially as well as in the design phase (internal/alpha/beta).
I guess it comes down to a personal choice for people. I'm paying for a chance this will give me what I've not been able to find since DAOC in 2004, whereas others think to put ANY money towards this kickstarter, they need all sorts of guarantees of what they're going to get. Different mindsets I guess.
If this doesn't interest you, you probably aren't a part of the target market/niche. If you are interested, but aren't compfortable putting money towards something to start it, rather than a finished project, I don't know what to say except that this is the first kickstarter I've ever funded, and I think it's WELL worth it. If you even think there's a chance this might be worthwhile, I'd suggest that even putting a little money towards it makes sense. If it doesn't fund because of your hesitation, you'll never know what you missed.... and the triple A mega millions developers win forever....
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
I look at it this way its their money and if folks want to do a kickstart with it let them.
For me i am just not sold on it yet.
I think the strong response from the community comes from, in part, that there is a real chance this may not get funded, and they feel lots of negativity amongst people that don't like these types of games or KS in general will impact the success of the project by swaying people on the fence to move on. Negativity is just as easy to snowball around a game and sink it as anything. I doubt that the goal of the people speaking out about this game it to see it not get funded, and I'd like to think it would be in their benefit to see indie projects succeed - but what do i know.
So, as a backer, I don't have a problem with many here not liking the project - most won't, but there could be a chance that it's survival may be indirectly impacted by your negativity towards it. So, there ends up being this strange struggle between the people for and against and they almost seem to feed off eachother - polarizing really. Personally, Ive got no problem with criticism and I think things will cool down once/if this game funds. My only problem is with those who haven't really read much about the game and say things that simply aren't true based on the information we've been given by CSE.
Well said sir.
+1
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/