Originally posted by OgreRaper F2P is fine for some games. But not an RvR focused one where community is important. Having a bunch of random people come and go is not going to build the type of community that DAOC had.
If you think CU will have a community anywhere near as good as DAoC your in lala land.
For that matter it's highly unlikely any mmo will ever have anything as good as the SWG community.
If your definition of good community = size, than most likely CU will not match DAoC or SWG. IMO smaller/niche community can be just as good as any large community, if not more so due to the community being more personal and tight knit. Large communities can sometimes make a player's voice get lost in the millions.
I was never part of SWG, but I heard good things about it from friends until SWG got fubar'd.
Originally posted by MarkJacobs And this reason, above any other, is why I chose to do this via Kickstarter. If I can't convince enough people to back this project, it makes little sense to go to investors to get $10M. OTOH, if we get $2M from our Kickstarters, I'm putting in my money and an additional $1M to make this game a reality.
/hands Mark some trollsbane poison
They are out in full force today... (not referring to OP)
I've been waiting for it. I knew some of my FPs would piss people off and frankly, the show of support CU has gotten here I also knew would piss people off and even getting close to 1M would do that too (since some people expected/hoped that this project would be a total face-plant) so...
Beyond the trolls, I'm sure there are some big money interest who are getting worried that CU will succeed because it will impact their business model(s). If you are successful, it's going to be harder for the industry to ask for $100+M budgets which means the people who make money off of money changing hands will not be pleased.
Friday is almost here which means I'll be looking forward to becoming a backer. At a higher level then I originally had planned at.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall. Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Karraptathid
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Wazluk
Originally posted by MarkJacobs And this reason, above any other, is why I chose to do this via Kickstarter. If I can't convince enough people to back this project, it makes little sense to go to investors to get $10M. OTOH, if we get $2M from our Kickstarters, I'm putting in my money and an additional $1M to make this game a reality.
/hands Mark some trollsbane poison
They are out in full force today... (not referring to OP)
I've been waiting for it. I knew some of my FPs would piss people off and frankly, the show of support CU has gotten here I also knew would piss people off and even getting close to 1M would do that too (since some people expected/hoped that this project would be a total face-plant) so...
Beyond the trolls, I'm sure there are some big money interest who are getting worried that CU will succeed because it will impact their business model(s). If you are successful, it's going to be harder for the industry to ask for $100+M budgets which means the people who make money off of money changing hands will not be pleased.
Friday is almost here which means I'll be looking forward to becoming a backer. At a higher level then I originally had planned at.
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
As to the trolls, well, I do think the Publisher-VC complex is incredibly threatened by Kickstarter and not by our little project. I've seen stories from panels, spoken to a few VCs and the reaction is pretty consistent (not all VCs) that KS puts more power/money into the hands of the developers which reduces the leverage that Publishers/VCs have when talking to developers. Obsidian could now, if they wanted, go to a VC and say "We have millions in the bank and we want additional sums to expand. Since we have those sums we want the following terms" which they couldn't do before. That's the same thing I said to both TA and then to companies like Ubi/EA/etc. who were looking to acquire us and we got much better terms than we would have otherwise. Same with publishers of course. Again, I know the trolls are not paid lackeys of the Pub/VC complex but I do know that outside of this little slice of heaven, that Pubs/VC are not happy about KS success stories and will be unhappier when more and more fo them come to fruition.
Personally I dont ever see this game gaining more then a 100k sub base but then again Im pretty sure they want to have as narrow and small base as possible. CU is about as niche as a game can get.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by bcbully Sure if it's good, people will pay. I'm not ready to "spread the word" until I see, even more until I play. I've learned from last years crop.
Pretty much this.
I'll pay a sub to any game I think is "worth it" and good.
Understandable attitude, however, in order to be able to play / consume a "good game" you need to have people who are willing to take the risk to make this game in the first place. They are doing their market research with the kickstarter.
Its not really an attitude, it's a sensible position. I happen to be there as well.
I think you putting too much emphasis on the kickstarter equalling market research. Sure, it is indicative of people interested enough to invest in the project, however MJ wouldn't have gone to the extent he has if he wasn't fairly certain there was a more than average chance of success. So, he did market research beforehand to get to the point of pitching his project plans, getting a team, and whatever else to get ready- market research that did not include kickstarter funding.
If the product is good, I will subscribe. From this potential customer, that is all the market research he needs.
Originally posted by azzamasin Personally I dont ever see this game gaining more then a 100k sub base but then again Im pretty sure they want to have as narrow and small base as possible. CU is about as niche as a game can get.
Yup, Mark has mentioned wanting to have a smaller player base. Of course he needs enough to fund and keep the game profitable. He wants to be able to continue to be part of the community. That would be fairly impossible with a mega large playerbase. No way he could make a dent in responding to the playerbases' concerns. A smaller playerbase should(and hopefully) keep him grounded and connected to the community aka his true "employers".
As to the trolls, well, I do think the Publisher-VC complex is incredibly threatened by Kickstarter and not by our little project.
Which I find strange, to be honest. As an investor I would want to have as clear an idea as possible about the return my investment is going to make. What better predictor of customer interest is there then a kickstarter project where people are actually putting their money where their mouth is?
I mean you said yourself that the game is not possible without additional funding over and above the kickstarter and your personal investement. I'm pretty sure in hindsight EA/Bioware are kicking their backsides about having poured millions into SWTOR, if a Kickstarter project with a close community dialogue like CU could have told them: guys you're barking up the wrong tree with your voiceover kfuffle!
As to the Trolls: I work in Mental Health care, so I have my own theories about geezers who derive pleasure from wasting their time and energy on forums pouring out vitriol without having anything constructive to contribute...
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Ulorik
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
As to the trolls, well, I do think the Publisher-VC complex is incredibly threatened by Kickstarter and not by our little project.
Which I find strange, to be honest. As an investor I would want to have as clear an idea as possible about the return my investment is going to make. What better predictor of customer interest is there then a kickstarter project where people are actually putting their money where their mouth is?
I mean you said yourself that the game is not possible without additional funding over and above the kickstarter and your personal investement. I'm pretty sure in hindsight EA/Bioware are kicking their backsides about having poured millions into SWTOR, if a Kickstarter project with a close community dialogue like CU could have told them: guys you're barking up the wrong tree with your voiceover kfuffle!
As to the Trolls: I work in Mental Health care, so I have my own theories about geezers who derive pleasure from wasting their time and energy on forums pouring out vitriol without having anything constructive to contribute...
As to some of the VCs, some do get it and others don't. VCs always want a really big return on their money, especially if they get in early. Now, while some of the guys I've talked to like KS because it does prove that there is interest in the project, they also acknowledged that they lose some of their leverage with companies that can go to KS. For them, the loss of leverage means that they can't get as good of a deal from the company for a relatively small investment. Larger investments aren't hurt all that much but smaller deals are. As to the publishers that are left, for those that do third-party games, I imagine that they know their ask of "piece/all the IP or deriviative rights, etc.) is not as feasible for *some* developers any more. I know I've had those conversations with people since EA and I parted ways and it was depressing, especially when distributors were/are asking that. Publishers asking for that is fairly common but distributors, that was new.
As to EA, no comment.
As to trolls, I'm much better than I used to be handling them.
I must admit pure PVP MMO games are rare and smaller community that can handle playing that kind of game.. But if you build it PVP guilds always turn up especially if CU will be using a single server for all players they will be plenty of players..
Please nerf paper Scissors are fine Signed rock...
Are there enough people willing to pay a subscription for a pure RvR game?
Of course there are.
If there were enough people around to sustain 4 such type of games (Darkfall, WAR, Eve and to a minute extent, MO), surely the crowd is big enough to support 1 very well made one.
I must admit pure PVP MMO games are rare and smaller community that can handle playing that kind of game.. But if you build it PVP guilds always turn up especially if CU will be using a single server for all players they will be plenty of players..
has their ever been a pure PVP mmo with NO PVE? I cant think of any and if none come to mind if they do exist they cant be all that popular. Im just not seeing how CU is going to attract and keep a sub paying population. PVPers are very fickle and there have been so many pvp centric games come and go that the pvp crowd never seems to stay with.
Personally, I would much rather pay one flat subscription rate than mess around with pay to win f2p games, or b2p games with "convenience/cosmetic items" only.
Cash shops look like a ripoff to me. The whole idea is to get paying customers to pay MORE. Plus, you always run the risk of hurting the community when you can play without spending a penny.
Personally, I would much rather pay one flat subscription rate than mess around with pay to win f2p games, or b2p games with "convenience/cosmetic items" only.
For RvR/PvP mmos, definitely agree.
For PvE games... well f2p might be better as you can much more easily have the option to drop it when you get bored with it.
I will not play a F2P ( pay to win) MMO ever again... I miss the old subscription games that were actually good. I really hope CU gets the backing it deserves and yes I am backing it.
Comments
If your definition of good community = size, than most likely CU will not match DAoC or SWG. IMO smaller/niche community can be just as good as any large community, if not more so due to the community being more personal and tight knit. Large communities can sometimes make a player's voice get lost in the millions.
I was never part of SWG, but I heard good things about it from friends until SWG got fubar'd.
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us!
Wazluk - Legionnaire of Terminus
Draken Stalker
Beyond the trolls, I'm sure there are some big money interest who are getting worried that CU will succeed because it will impact their business model(s). If you are successful, it's going to be harder for the industry to ask for $100+M budgets which means the people who make money off of money changing hands will not be pleased.
Friday is almost here which means I'll be looking forward to becoming a backer. At a higher level then I originally had planned at.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
As to the trolls, well, I do think the Publisher-VC complex is incredibly threatened by Kickstarter and not by our little project. I've seen stories from panels, spoken to a few VCs and the reaction is pretty consistent (not all VCs) that KS puts more power/money into the hands of the developers which reduces the leverage that Publishers/VCs have when talking to developers. Obsidian could now, if they wanted, go to a VC and say "We have millions in the bank and we want additional sums to expand. Since we have those sums we want the following terms" which they couldn't do before. That's the same thing I said to both TA and then to companies like Ubi/EA/etc. who were looking to acquire us and we got much better terms than we would have otherwise. Same with publishers of course. Again, I know the trolls are not paid lackeys of the Pub/VC complex but I do know that outside of this little slice of heaven, that Pubs/VC are not happy about KS success stories and will be unhappier when more and more fo them come to fruition.
Time to do that interview thing. See ya.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Its not really an attitude, it's a sensible position. I happen to be there as well.
I think you putting too much emphasis on the kickstarter equalling market research. Sure, it is indicative of people interested enough to invest in the project, however MJ wouldn't have gone to the extent he has if he wasn't fairly certain there was a more than average chance of success. So, he did market research beforehand to get to the point of pitching his project plans, getting a team, and whatever else to get ready- market research that did not include kickstarter funding.
If the product is good, I will subscribe. From this potential customer, that is all the market research he needs.
Yup, Mark has mentioned wanting to have a smaller player base. Of course he needs enough to fund and keep the game profitable. He wants to be able to continue to be part of the community. That would be fairly impossible with a mega large playerbase. No way he could make a dent in responding to the playerbases' concerns. A smaller playerbase should(and hopefully) keep him grounded and connected to the community aka his true "employers".
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us!
Wazluk - Legionnaire of Terminus
Draken Stalker
Hmmm .... monthly sub for a pvp only title.... that's never been done before ....
I'll pass
That's CU in a nutshell! It will basically be like playing Halo with swords(melee) and grenades(magic) only... Nothing more to it. Please fund now.
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us!
Wazluk - Legionnaire of Terminus
Draken Stalker
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Don't before the complex housing system with classes(Contractor, Realtor, Interior Designer, Landscaper).
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Wazluk - Legionnaire of Terminus
Draken Stalker
Which I find strange, to be honest. As an investor I would want to have as clear an idea as possible about the return my investment is going to make. What better predictor of customer interest is there then a kickstarter project where people are actually putting their money where their mouth is?
I mean you said yourself that the game is not possible without additional funding over and above the kickstarter and your personal investement. I'm pretty sure in hindsight EA/Bioware are kicking their backsides about having poured millions into SWTOR, if a Kickstarter project with a close community dialogue like CU could have told them: guys you're barking up the wrong tree with your voiceover kfuffle!
As to the Trolls: I work in Mental Health care, so I have my own theories about geezers who derive pleasure from wasting their time and energy on forums pouring out vitriol without having anything constructive to contribute...
As to some of the VCs, some do get it and others don't. VCs always want a really big return on their money, especially if they get in early. Now, while some of the guys I've talked to like KS because it does prove that there is interest in the project, they also acknowledged that they lose some of their leverage with companies that can go to KS. For them, the loss of leverage means that they can't get as good of a deal from the company for a relatively small investment. Larger investments aren't hurt all that much but smaller deals are. As to the publishers that are left, for those that do third-party games, I imagine that they know their ask of "piece/all the IP or deriviative rights, etc.) is not as feasible for *some* developers any more. I know I've had those conversations with people since EA and I parted ways and it was depressing, especially when distributors were/are asking that. Publishers asking for that is fairly common but distributors, that was new.
As to EA, no comment.
As to trolls, I'm much better than I used to be handling them.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I must admit pure PVP MMO games are rare and smaller community that can handle playing that kind of game.. But if you build it PVP guilds always turn up especially if CU will be using a single server for all players they will be plenty of players..
Please nerf paper
Scissors are fine
Signed rock...
Of course there are.
If there were enough people around to sustain 4 such type of games (Darkfall, WAR, Eve and to a minute extent, MO), surely the crowd is big enough to support 1 very well made one.
has their ever been a pure PVP mmo with NO PVE? I cant think of any and if none come to mind if they do exist they cant be all that popular. Im just not seeing how CU is going to attract and keep a sub paying population. PVPers are very fickle and there have been so many pvp centric games come and go that the pvp crowd never seems to stay with.
Personally, I would much rather pay one flat subscription rate than mess around with pay to win f2p games, or b2p games with "convenience/cosmetic items" only.
Cash shops look like a ripoff to me. The whole idea is to get paying customers to pay MORE. Plus, you always run the risk of hurting the community when you can play without spending a penny.
For RvR/PvP mmos, definitely agree.
For PvE games... well f2p might be better as you can much more easily have the option to drop it when you get bored with it.
I will not play a F2P ( pay to win) MMO ever again... I miss the old subscription games that were actually good. I really hope CU gets the backing it deserves and yes I am backing it.
Cheers!
Cypz/Cypress
MLF(Alb)/Mordred/Lamorak(Mid)