I m not a D&D series fan though I had the impression that every RPG is actually a D&D clone (and I mean levels, classes, quests were introduced to us by D&D games), the same way that every epic fantasy novel is a LotR clone one way or another. Of course an electronic product can never simulate the real life "playing D&D with friends" experience, so I can't understand the "it's not D&D" statement.
But beside this, after I spent some hours during last beta, I must say that the game feels a bit... amateur. I ve played Darkfall (which is created by a small greek company if u believe it) and it felt better in many ways. I found the graphic art lacking (it actually reminds me of low quality fantasy art from the 80s... or this is exactly the devs purpose?), controls that reminded me of a diablo clone and, please oh please remove that mage's kung-fu-I-bless-you-all battle stance.
Ofc it's free to play but imho it felt like a hasty, low budget project rather than an ambitious new MMO. I hope the devs (and mostly the Forge mechanic) will prove me wrong, but until then I would pass.
(And btw 200$ for the "colelctor's" isn't it a bit... well pricey?)
So, given that the majority of the playerbase are in private instances, and thus not able to interact with 99% of the rest of the people, I would argue that heavily instanced game are NOT MMORPGs, by its very definition.
More over, instances are NOT persistent and with the majority of the gameworld in instances, then again that is a point of argument if heavily instanced games are MMOs or not. I say not.
Then neither are WoW, EQ2, Aion, TERA, TSW, Lineage 2 or any other game that revolves around instanced end games.
Your definition would leave this site pretty sparse. I mean what does that really leave? Vanguard and Runescape probably.
Seeing as how Neverwinter Nights was D&D and this game is basically that game in online form...it is D&D.
It can be as solo or group oriented as YOU want it to be, if you are a ture D&D player you would be ROLEPLAYING your character and not trying to solo anyway but instead finding ways to play grouped...and there will be no shortage in group content with the foundry in place and being able to set difficulty.
How is this game D&D? It's a complete Action-RPG, basicly a Tera. Where do you see any bit of D&D in it? You dont even notice any role-check (dmg-wise) and I've found stats not to be that important as it is in any more RPGish singeplayer game. Or even DDO itself (which I never played for long, since I was saying byebye to MMOs @that time).
Over the last couple of years I have played a couple of 4E PnP campaigns. There is alot I dont like about 4e but it has begun to grow on me. It always seemed to us that many on the 4e rules were balanced in the style of an mmo, and maybe it would make a better MMO than a PnP game.
I got into the last open beta weekend and I was really surprised to find its really nothing like 4e DnD, Yes its got the name, yes the fast recharge attacks are called "at will powers", the slower recharge attacks are called "encounter powers" and the "on fully charged" energy powers are called Daily powers. But its more like somebody has put a D&D skin on a typical action MMO. I mean anyone could sit down with a new unbranded MMO and say lets call that an encounter power, that X, that Y, Put D&D in the title and bingo we got a new D&D MMO.
This is particulairly obvious where lots of standard MMO stats that have no place in 4E D&D creep in, Power, Crit rating etc etc.
In an already oversaturated market where many consumers are already unhappy with how similiar many MMO's are I think it was a mistake to sacrifice the specific character of the 4E system to reskin the standard mmo system using in games such as SWTOR , Rfits or whatever.
Still it free so maybe I will give it another try, just a little disappointing
Over the last couple of years I have played a couple of 4E PnP campaigns. There is alot I dont like about 4e but it has begun to grow on me. It always seemed to us that many on the 4e rules were balanced in the style of an mmo, and maybe it would make a better MMO than a PnP game.
I got into the last open beta weekend and I was really surprised to find its really nothing like 4e DnD, Yes its got the name, yes the fast recharge attacks are called "at will powers", the slower recharge attacks are called "encounter powers" and the "on fully charged" energy powers are called Daily powers. But its more like somebody has put a D&D skin on a typical action MMO. I mean anyone could sit down with a new unbranded MMO and say lets call that an encounter power, that X, that Y, Put D&D in the title and bingo we got a new D&D MMO.
This is particulairly obvious where lots of standard MMO stats that have no place in 4E D&D creep in, Power, Crit rating etc etc.
In an already oversaturated market where many consumers are already unhappy with how similiar many MMO's are I think it was a mistake to sacrifice the specific character of the 4E system to reskin the standard mmo system using in games such as SWTOR , Rfits or whatever.
Still it free so maybe I will give it another try, just a little disappointing
My heart is with and always will be with AD&D 2.5 but it doesnt mean that a video game based on 4e is bad, I'll never play 4e on P&P but you cant transition the true heart of the pen and paper experience to a video format and as such I will play any D&D game in video form if the game is fun.......and NWO is tons of fun.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Most people who liked Neverwinter in the beta weekends and what the developers said about the cash shop and how it is truly F2P, etc., are going to be in for a nice surprise in open beta and launch, that is all I will say.
Oh, they may even roll it out in the fourth beta weekend. The forums are going to be on fire.
Originally posted by Scot If anything says wait until the game is released and see what the reviews say, then this thread does.
how does that make any sense for a f2p game.. why not just try it yourself then let someone elses opinion tell you if its good or not
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
edit: that 3.0 vs 3.5 vs 4.0 arguement is what landed D&D were it is now with D&D next. Losing parts of their customer base every time they made changes became a serious problem, and they are trying to adress the point I was making now.
True enough, although D&D next would have come anyway. 2014 is the 40'th anniversary...
So the foundry will only be used to create dungeon runs with a storyline and a reward?.....
I was expecting the foundry to be a full in depth modding system like the Skyrim workshop.
I guess i expected too much? Now im sad and not caring about the foundry anymore.
There will never, nor should there ever be a modding system like that for an MMO. It would be impossible to keep the game balanced if it allowed people to create armor/weapons/items/creatures without a massive restriction in design which would then make it...not...like that modding anyway.
If they open the foundry so we can make non-fighting quests, like a town with NPCs with a party going on for example it would open up the heavy RPing aspects needed which is more than enough.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Excuse me but if that pos that is World of Tanks can be called an MMO and not only that WIn the Golden Joystick MMO award then sure as hell Neverwinter is an MMO!!
Seriously WoT NEVER has more than 16 v 16 so it does not fit the bill yet wins awards.
The same comments about being an MMO or not were made about swtor. I didn't understand before I played that game how someone could claim it wasn't an MMO- clearly by the definition both tor and neverwinter are MMO's. But the technical definition is lacking because TOR proved its possible to satisfy those requirements without delivering anything that feels massively multiplayer.
The "neverwinter isn't D&D" complaint is probably a similar issue for many D&D fans. Clearly Neverwinter is a D&D product, but that doesn't mean playing it will feel the least bit D&D to them. Just because somthing meets a technical definition doesn't mean it captures the essence of a thing.
This response is priceless.
If there was ever an example of someone still insisting white is black and black is white the comment above encapsulates it.
MMO or not, it may be now, but I still wish they had stayed on their original course of making Neverwinter a co-op online RPG. This game had a lot more appeal to me then than it does now.
Most people who liked Neverwinter in the beta weekends and what the developers said about the cash shop and how it is truly F2P, etc., are going to be in for a nice surprise in open beta and launch, that is all I will say.
Oh, they may even roll it out in the fourth beta weekend. The forums are going to be on fire.
And this is where hyperbole is at its finest. Or where you are dead wrong.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by tmr819 MMO or not, it may be now, but I still wish they had stayed on their original course of making Neverwinter a co-op online RPG. This game had a lot more appeal to me then than it does now.
I never would of bothered to look at the game then. There is something about an MMO that makes people look at the game just as sure as drives them away from the game but your statement is something I would expect to see on PCGamer.com not on MMORPG.com.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The same comments about being an MMO or not were made about swtor. I didn't understand before I played that game how someone could claim it wasn't an MMO- clearly by the definition both tor and neverwinter are MMO's. But the technical definition is lacking because TOR proved its possible to satisfy those requirements without delivering anything that feels massively multiplayer.
The "neverwinter isn't D&D" complaint is probably a similar issue for many D&D fans. Clearly Neverwinter is a D&D product, but that doesn't mean playing it will feel the least bit D&D to them. Just because somthing meets a technical definition doesn't mean it captures the essence of a thing.
This response is priceless.
If there was ever an example of someone still insisting white is black and black is white the comment above encapsulates it.
I'm not insisting anything at all, just stating an opinion. I don't enjoy games like these and won't be spending my money on them. Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will, but thats not going to change for me.
Not enough choices... To laid out. To make the world change and open the rest of things up you have to move the main story quest along. No choice to be evil or just dirty and shady. Its a fun MMO based on DND, but it is not DND.
I would like to address this quote from the article
There is no question that Neverwinter fits every part of that definition. Are there instances? Are there a LOT of instances? You better believe it. But in between all of those instances, there are large areas to explore and to interact with other players in. There are gathering spots, places to cooperatively quest and much more, all while thousands of players are simultaneously connected to the game. If that’s not an MMO, what is?
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there are large areas to explore and to interact with other players in.
I love that word "LARGE".
For those that don't remember I am that nerd who used to argue the size of MMO game worlds
FWIW one of the worlds I have info on is Cryptic's Champions Online. So I have seen this game engine. A lot of people claimed that CO was "huge" too.
But the thing is our perception of distance and size (particularly in virtual words) is often wrong. This is because one of the things that influences our perception of distance is how hard it is to get somewhere. IOW a world with lots of wandering mobs can seem far bigger than a world with none.
So, when Champions Online was new I actually 'measured' it in comparison to some other games and this was the result
Well, FWIW I had a tour around Canada tonight.
What surprised me most was thet even on foot my character moved very fast and had no difficulty with most slopes (except the very steepest ones)
Results:
Canada E-W (along south edge of map) 7:00 mins to run 80% of the way. Had to stop because mountains in SW corner are too steep. So... 8.75 mins to travel across Canada W-E.
Traveled S-N along west edge of map (east edge might be better?) 4:00 minutes for 50% of the way. So...8:00 mins to travel across Canada N-S.
So, Canada instance is about 8 min x 8 min on foot.
Additional
Managaged to do a run around MillenuimCity last night with the following results: Ran 33% of the way from West to East (before dyiing - Level 10 Force Character) took 4 minutes Estimate of total time W-E 12 minutes
Running North to South 100% of the way in 5 minutes.
So Millenium City 12 minutes x 5 minutes.
So the total size of the game world is: Tutorial 3min x 1.5 min Desert and Canada 8 min x 8 min each Millenium City 12 min x 5 min Monster Island and others not yet measured.
But based on what is measured to put it in context: CO is about 1/5th the size of PotBS or about 1/25th the size of WoW (actually smaller since there have been some new continents added recently) or about 1/150th the size of Darkfall or about 1/5000ththe size of the playable area of WWIIoL
Please remember though – this is an out and out size comparison – it does NOT refer to content or game 'fun'.
Please remember this is old data now as WoW has had at least two(?) expansions since then but the point still stands. The Cryptic engine produces worlds that only seem big. In reality they are actually some of the smallest MMO worlds out there. You only think they are big because you spend a lot of time doing "fed ex" and "kill mob X" quests - which keeps you busy.
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There are gathering spots, places to cooperatively quest and much more, all while thousands of players are simultaneously connected to the game. If that’s not an MMO, what is?
Do you want me to dig up my link to "FARMTOWN vs MMORPG.com"?
The Cryptic Engine is "Instance director software" for a graphical lobby game.
It's a step backward in what is defined as an MMO game.
Lets not forget the big daddy to date.. Citadel of Sorcery and its 900 million kilometer virtual planet. To date the devs still havent been able to explore the entire planet and its been several years since it was built.
I havew absolutely no faith in Cryptic to give players a good Neverwinter game only because everything Cryptic touches becomes over hyped and under performing. Star Trek Online is a money pit and its supposedly thier mainstream title game.
100% instanced.. enough that it makes you yearn for the open world of azeroth once again.
Linear quests.. all i can say is.. OMFG another one? As much as these dipsh*t developer companies make youd think theyed figure out how to make a game that players dont play connect the dots ....
oh did i mention instances... the whole freakin game is one giant instance that you play in for the main event.. the loading screen.. Its so low tech
MAKE A GAME WITHOUT LOADING SCREENS ... thatd be a challenge for Crypitc..
Neverwinter... it has a flowing rich history, and so many things to do in it.. and they gave it to a lame duck Developer like Cryptic? did they not take a look at the complaints about the other games Cryptic screwed up or lied about? Anyone else remember the three years of lies about Klingon content?
I had high hopes for Neverwinter.. een beta tested it.. and after doing so feel that Cryptic could have done loads more and dropped the ball once again. They had a premier title handed to them and they bumbled around and did the same crap they have done in the past.. Crappy game design.
- clearly by the definition both tor and neverwinter are MMO's. But the technical definition is lacking because TOR proved its possible to satisfy those requirements without delivering anything that feels massively multiplayer.
Oh, really? And how would that be? Played since day 1 and had great feeling of massively multiplayer. Truth is normal questing could be soloed (I would not even bother to play otherwise) but there was so much group content for willing one that I have rarely seen.
Comments
I m not a D&D series fan though I had the impression that every RPG is actually a D&D clone (and I mean levels, classes, quests were introduced to us by D&D games), the same way that every epic fantasy novel is a LotR clone one way or another. Of course an electronic product can never simulate the real life "playing D&D with friends" experience, so I can't understand the "it's not D&D" statement.
But beside this, after I spent some hours during last beta, I must say that the game feels a bit... amateur. I ve played Darkfall (which is created by a small greek company if u believe it) and it felt better in many ways. I found the graphic art lacking (it actually reminds me of low quality fantasy art from the 80s... or this is exactly the devs purpose?), controls that reminded me of a diablo clone and, please oh please remove that mage's kung-fu-I-bless-you-all battle stance.
Ofc it's free to play but imho it felt like a hasty, low budget project rather than an ambitious new MMO. I hope the devs (and mostly the Forge mechanic) will prove me wrong, but until then I would pass.
(And btw 200$ for the "colelctor's" isn't it a bit... well pricey?)
Then neither are WoW, EQ2, Aion, TERA, TSW, Lineage 2 or any other game that revolves around instanced end games.
Your definition would leave this site pretty sparse. I mean what does that really leave? Vanguard and Runescape probably.
How is this game D&D? It's a complete Action-RPG, basicly a Tera. Where do you see any bit of D&D in it? You dont even notice any role-check (dmg-wise) and I've found stats not to be that important as it is in any more RPGish singeplayer game. Or even DDO itself (which I never played for long, since I was saying byebye to MMOs @that time).
My heart has always been with 3.0 and 3.5.
Over the last couple of years I have played a couple of 4E PnP campaigns. There is alot I dont like about 4e but it has begun to grow on me. It always seemed to us that many on the 4e rules were balanced in the style of an mmo, and maybe it would make a better MMO than a PnP game.
I got into the last open beta weekend and I was really surprised to find its really nothing like 4e DnD, Yes its got the name, yes the fast recharge attacks are called "at will powers", the slower recharge attacks are called "encounter powers" and the "on fully charged" energy powers are called Daily powers. But its more like somebody has put a D&D skin on a typical action MMO. I mean anyone could sit down with a new unbranded MMO and say lets call that an encounter power, that X, that Y, Put D&D in the title and bingo we got a new D&D MMO.
This is particulairly obvious where lots of standard MMO stats that have no place in 4E D&D creep in, Power, Crit rating etc etc.
In an already oversaturated market where many consumers are already unhappy with how similiar many MMO's are I think it was a mistake to sacrifice the specific character of the 4E system to reskin the standard mmo system using in games such as SWTOR , Rfits or whatever.
Still it free so maybe I will give it another try, just a little disappointing
My heart is with and always will be with AD&D 2.5 but it doesnt mean that a video game based on 4e is bad, I'll never play 4e on P&P but you cant transition the true heart of the pen and paper experience to a video format and as such I will play any D&D game in video form if the game is fun.......and NWO is tons of fun.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Most people who liked Neverwinter in the beta weekends and what the developers said about the cash shop and how it is truly F2P, etc., are going to be in for a nice surprise in open beta and launch, that is all I will say.
Oh, they may even roll it out in the fourth beta weekend. The forums are going to be on fire.
how does that make any sense for a f2p game.. why not just try it yourself then let someone elses opinion tell you if its good or not
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The game is pretty awesome.. looking forward to the end of the month for open beta!!
True enough, although D&D next would have come anyway. 2014 is the 40'th anniversary...
Norden
There will never, nor should there ever be a modding system like that for an MMO. It would be impossible to keep the game balanced if it allowed people to create armor/weapons/items/creatures without a massive restriction in design which would then make it...not...like that modding anyway.
If they open the foundry so we can make non-fighting quests, like a town with NPCs with a party going on for example it would open up the heavy RPing aspects needed which is more than enough.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Excuse me but if that pos that is World of Tanks can be called an MMO and not only that WIn the Golden Joystick MMO award then sure as hell Neverwinter is an MMO!!
Seriously WoT NEVER has more than 16 v 16 so it does not fit the bill yet wins awards.
NW sounds more mmo that that.
This response is priceless.
If there was ever an example of someone still insisting white is black and black is white the comment above encapsulates it.
And this is where hyperbole is at its finest. Or where you are dead wrong.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I never would of bothered to look at the game then. There is something about an MMO that makes people look at the game just as sure as drives them away from the game but your statement is something I would expect to see on PCGamer.com not on MMORPG.com.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It is Cryptic. They make mediocre MMOs, at best.
My gaming blog
I'm not insisting anything at all, just stating an opinion. I don't enjoy games like these and won't be spending my money on them. Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will, but thats not going to change for me.
Lets not forget the big daddy to date.. Citadel of Sorcery and its 900 million kilometer virtual planet. To date the devs still havent been able to explore the entire planet and its been several years since it was built.
I havew absolutely no faith in Cryptic to give players a good Neverwinter game only because everything Cryptic touches becomes over hyped and under performing. Star Trek Online is a money pit and its supposedly thier mainstream title game.
100% instanced.. enough that it makes you yearn for the open world of azeroth once again.
Linear quests.. all i can say is.. OMFG another one? As much as these dipsh*t developer companies make youd think theyed figure out how to make a game that players dont play connect the dots ....
oh did i mention instances... the whole freakin game is one giant instance that you play in for the main event.. the loading screen.. Its so low tech
MAKE A GAME WITHOUT LOADING SCREENS ... thatd be a challenge for Crypitc..
Neverwinter... it has a flowing rich history, and so many things to do in it.. and they gave it to a lame duck Developer like Cryptic? did they not take a look at the complaints about the other games Cryptic screwed up or lied about? Anyone else remember the three years of lies about Klingon content?
I had high hopes for Neverwinter.. een beta tested it.. and after doing so feel that Cryptic could have done loads more and dropped the ball once again. They had a premier title handed to them and they bumbled around and did the same crap they have done in the past.. Crappy game design.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
Oh, really? And how would that be? Played since day 1 and had great feeling of massively multiplayer. Truth is normal questing could be soloed (I would not even bother to play otherwise) but there was so much group content for willing one that I have rarely seen.