This would be much better with 2 major factions

TheScavenger · April 2013

WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

Just imagine

A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

(edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

Caliburn101 · April 2013

I don't think this argument holds water.

Zenimax have already stretched the ES in ESO with 3 fixed factions.

2 would be even less choice and by no means guarantee better mass PvP.

I can't think of a clear example in the MMO world where a 2-way was better than a 3-way.

azzamasin · April 2013

Spoken like the WoW fanboi you are OP. I suppose you're one of those who insist WoW was the first MMO too.

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Livnthedream · April 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

muffins89 · April 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Spoken like the WoW fanboi you are OP. I suppose you're one of those who insist WoW was the first MMO too.

it was the first truley Massive on.

GroovyFlower · April 2013

Originally posted by TheScavenger
WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

Just imagine

A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

(edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

At launch you had world pvp no BG or other instance pvp huge wars at tarrenmil but poeple whined so much that eventually world pvp died and BG/arena was main pvp.

So yeh that worked out fine 2 factions lol

muffins89 · April 2013

Originally posted by GroovyFlower
Originally posted by TheScavenger
WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

Just imagine

A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

(edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

At launch you had world pvp no BG or other instance pvp huge wars at tarrenmil but poeple whined so much that eventually world pvp died and BG/arena was main pvp.

So yeh that worked out fine 2 factions lol

how would the amount of factions affect wether or not people like world pvp or bg/arena pvp more?

azzamasin · April 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap. 2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.

TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did. No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no cause for killing other then to gain artificial points. Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).

PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.

Squeak69 · April 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap. 2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.

TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did. No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no cause for killing other then to gain artificial points. Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).

PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.

in TSW and GW2 while not exactly friendly they where not in open war with each other. also in GW2 you where not fighting people from the same server but a diffrent server. and in TSW PvP????? really cause aside from arenas there was no real PvP in that game.

useing examples that have major diffrence form the subject you are useing them as examples aginst dose ot work.

Alders · April 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap. 2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.

TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did. No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no cause for killing other then to gain artificial points. Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).

PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.

Doesn't change the fact that he's right. Times and players have changed. No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go. 2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.

DAS1337 · April 2013

You've clearly never played a three faction game.

The third faction balances the unbalance of two factions. Since one is always more popular than the other. If one faction is strong, the two weaker factions balance it out. Midgard was usually the least populated due to ugly races, however, I never had a problem taking keeps or finding a good fight. I'm seen first hand, two factions temporarily forming an alliance to knock the stronger faction down a peg or two.

Just because WoW did it, doesn't mean that it's the best.

JimmyYO · April 2013

Wow's success had nothing to do with having 2 factions over three and everything to do with how smooth the gameplay was compared to all else out there. A fact which holds true to this day.

The sad part is GW2 is still the games only competition but luckily for blizzard, arenanet chose to give few to no incentives for doing anything and no competitive raid kills or pvp ladders. Otherwise they would have actually killed WoW and that's coming from someone that HATED GW2.

Alders · April 2013

Originally posted by DAS1337
You've clearly never played a three faction game.

The third faction balances the unbalance of two factions.

Again, this isn't the case anymore. It is still better than 2 though.

DAS1337 · April 2013

Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap. 2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.

TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did. No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no cause for killing other then to gain artificial points. Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).

PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.

Doesn't change the fact that he's right. Times and players have changed. No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go. 2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.

It doesn't become a fact just because you will it to. The weaker insecure players will go to the strong side, while the stronger PvP'ers will join the weak side. This is how it's always worked, and it still works today.

Arun · April 2013

3 is just more interesting than 2.

Drakynn · April 2013

Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap. 2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.

TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did. No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no cause for killing other then to gain artificial points. Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).

PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.

Doesn't change the fact that he's right. Times and players have changed. No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go. 2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.

It doesn't become a fact just because you will it to. The weaker insecure players will go to the strong side, while the stronger PvP'ers will join the weak side. This is how it's always worked, and it still works today.

I also have to disagree.The reason why recent games have failed to engender faction pride IMO is because the factiosn are all generic and exactly the same.In games like DAoC and War each faction had it's own unique lore,races and classes with unique clothing and animations.

The games mentioned here the factions are interchangeable with the same classes with the same animations and the same races.TSW has a little variation in the clothing and lore but that is it.

Of course now that someone is trying to engender said pride again by making unique factions we see people crying liek babies about not being able to have all the races,classes and content available from day one.Seems today's gamer wants sameness and bland content.

rojoArcueid · April 2013

i think the game would do better without the 3 player factions (or even 2 like OP says).

Let everyone hang out together in game. All PvE. You would have the freedom to choose to join a real Elder Scroll faction in game (dark brotherhood, thieves, mages, etc) and through them you can do all different types and modes of PvP that would benefit your faction as a hole. Everyone will be neutral out in the world. You can only be flagged for pvp to other faction if you choose to go against them for the overall benefit of your own faction. Once you start looking for trouble you will stay enemy of the members of that faction you offended in some way (giving you the option to redeem yourself and be forgiven by betraying your faction and joiniing them, otherwise you stay enemy to them)

Sideras · April 2013

Did you really play DAoC? The little guy usually waited for the right moment while the middle faction was thinning out the Zerg and then the underdogs came in for the clean up. That happend alot.

There is a very big problems in MMO's today and that's the whole balance whine, MMO's shouldn't be over-balanced, WoW was to the point where it bored me to tears.

And 2 factions has even less chance of being balanced considering population.

Slapshot1188 · April 2013

Originally posted by Alders

No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore

Umm... I do...

Sideras · April 2013

Originally posted by DAS1337
You've clearly never played a three faction game.

The third faction balances the unbalance of two factions. Since one is always more popular than the other. If one faction is strong, the two weaker factions balance it out. Midgard was usually the least populated due to ugly races, however, I never had a problem taking keeps or finding a good fight. I'm seen first hand, two factions temporarily forming an alliance to knock the stronger faction down a peg or two.

Just because WoW did it, doesn't mean that it's the best.

Really? Midgard was always the middle pop faction in on the EU servers, but I suppose that's thanks to the Scandinavians I guess.

But yeah underdogs balance it out, that's the idea anyways but you can always fuck it up like in GW2.

sketocafe · April 2013

There are plenty of sites that'll list wow's realm population. None of them are balanced and most are highly skewed in favor of one faction or the other. If it "works" as you say, it's only because the pvp which happens in wow takes place in balanced instances. This is not the case with ESO.

TheScavenger · April 2013

Originally posted by Slapshot1188
Originally posted by Alders

No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore

Umm... I do...

I guess that should have been the main point in my post, though I did bring it up. Maybe 2 factions wouldn't work either, since someone did bring up that WoW is mostly balanced due to instancing.

But, while there are people with server/faction pride...I even saw it in some larger GW2 servers and the RP-PvP servers in WoW (I played Emerald Dream). However...I'll say it again.

The MMO community (and gaming community in general) in modern times...is very different.

Most/A lot of people will almost always go to the faction that is winning. Heck, when GW2 had free server transfers...almost everyone transferred to the servers that had the best PvPers or who were winning the most. I guess WoW had the same problem in a lot of servers (like Illidan and Tichondrius).

So maybe factions just don't really work at all, in these modern times. Though I never did play WAR, I did hear of very unbalanced sides...but never really looked into it, since not a big fan of the lore of the fantasy version (though I like WAR 40k quite a bit).

But, recent MMOs are a great example of people joining the biggest or/and the most powerful PvP guilds. Along with whatever side is winning. And I guess 2, 3 or 4 or 5 don't make that big of a difference.

With 3, I guess it may be a bit better than 2...but there is a high chance people will go after the weak, easy to kill faction. A lot of modern gamers want easy kills and an easy game. Just take a look at some of the open world deathmatch PvP full loot MMOs. High levels going around pwning level 1s (or in EVE's case, low skilled (actual skill level, not how good/bad they are at the game) players) and newbies to said MMO...no challenge. Just going around pwning everything that is easy to kill.

So, maybe ESO won't attract that...but there is a high chance with these new type of gamers, that two factions will ally and always pwn the weak faction. And then "everyone" joins the winning side(s) and the 3rd faction can't barely do anything. As seen in other games.

But I guess the same can easily be done with 2 factions...and if there is a population cap in one faction (that has been done before), everyone hates it.

ScriptZ · April 2013

Originally posted by rojo6934
i think the game would do better without the 3 player factions (or even 2 like OP says).

Let everyone hang out together in game. All PvE. You would have the freedom to choose to join a real Elder Scroll faction in game (dark brotherhood, thieves, mages, etc) and through them you can do all different types and modes of PvP that would benefit your faction as a hole. Everyone will be neutral out in the world. You can only be flagged for pvp to other faction if you choose to go against them for the overall benefit of your own faction. Once you start looking for trouble you will stay enemy of the members of that faction you offended in some way (giving you the option to redeem yourself and be forgiven by betraying your faction and joiniing them, otherwise you stay enemy to them)

I dunno I think if you join one of the ingame factions ppl of the other factions should be flagged to you, if you was gonna go that route just to make it feel more realistic. Me a member of the dark brotherhood able to kill a mage and what not would be really cool. The reason I do like the 3 faction setup or even 2 faction is for the pride factor and the hate that I start to develop in game for the other faction/s. But your way has some merit to it also being able to be Dark brotherhood and everyone hate me and wanna kill me with me still able to be any race would be kinda nice aswell. But I'm not picky I'll take either way as long as I can attack my enemy and be able to recognize my enemy from a distance.

Nanfoodle · April 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

Communities dont just show up. It takes time for servers to gell and learn to work together. DAoC took about a year or so before things really got rolling. Before that people were zerging as well. What else do you do? GW2 will find its grove but not as well as ESO will do. In ESO you are not part of some 2 week war. You will get to know each factions, the guilds you face and the players. In time your conflict will learn who is the underdog and tatics and alliances will form. But that does not happen a few months from launch.

P.S. 3 faction war all the way, sorry OP unless you been there you dont get it.

versulas · April 2013

Someone never played WAR where the faction imbalance of 2 realms got to be so bad on -most- servers that they had to offer incentives like +xp rate in order to get people to roll on the less populated factions. Hell, even today look at SWTOR, not a single damn realm is balanced anywhere near the 50/50 ratio line (admittedly hard to gauge with free accounts being created).

At least with 3 factions an underpopulated realm has the chance to make a difference in the larger scheme of things and isn't simply getting rolled over constantly.

Nanfoodle · April 2013

Originally posted by versulas
Someone never played WAR where the faction imbalance of 2 realms got to be so bad on -most- servers that they had to offer incentives like +xp rate in order to get people to roll on the less populated factions. Hell, even today look at SWTOR, not a single damn realm is balanced anywhere near the 50/50 ratio line (admittedly hard to gauge with free accounts being created).

At least with 3 factions an underpopulated realm has the chance to make a difference in the larger scheme of things and isn't simply getting rolled over constantly.

I was on a under dog server in DAoC. Mid faction had the highest population and hib and ab had 1/2 of what midguard had. We had tatics and guilds working together. Was a lot of fun winning and being the underdog. Took a few years work to get there but it was so worth it. Even had a battle where 40 of us took out over a 100 Midgaurds. Most fun I have ever had PvPing.

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