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What game mechanics have ruined PvP in other MMO's?
morfidon
Member Posts: 245
Straying from the trinity (no healers / true support)
GW2's stupid fucking down state
No publicly visible stats (ex. I Remain Standing, solo kills)
Too much instancing / sharding and not enough persistence
Skill bloat
Maps with no choke points
"Glass" canons that can tank
No punishing interrupt system
Form over function (Animation vs Combat)
Extremely fast OOC healing
Not balancing over/under powered classes for months
All cooldown based abilities
No enemy name plates in PvP
No killspam with player names, zone name
Cross server anything
Implementing daily/monthly aspects into PvP
No form of non-gear related progression (ex. Realm Points / abilities)
i would also add:
- casting while moving
- addons that takes fun of making moves yourself (like the one that decides which spell to use based on enemy / ally HP)
- no skill development everything from above is ready to be used like in diablo3 / gw 2
- giving people benefits for taking keeps instead of making them lose something (bonuses etc.)
What do you think guys?
I think it's very important topic.
Comments
I think one of the top reasons is
Forceing players to pve grind for gear to be fully maxed out stats vise.
Thankfully here you only have to protect and/or pay crafters to get stuff
- (Almost) Insta-travel all over the maps without a need to deploy your troops properly
- mindless keep swapping deteriorating into Zerg-PvE
- A big objective at the end of PvP efforts that can suddenly be conquered twice a day (aka Enemy Capital City in WAR)
One example for good/bad PvP that has rarely been referred to on these forums is the early Alterac Valley Battlefield in WoW. I remember fondly the huge battles going on in the early days where one battle/instance could last up to 10 hours (hehe logging off after 4 hours of battling at midnight, next morning the battle was still going on). This was imho actually a very good PvP experience, especially due to the need of gathering/defending resources in order to summon bad ass Boss-mobs, reinforcing your positions etc.
However what happened was sadly after some stupid changes to the system that the two opposing factions just made a speed run to the opposite boss, completely avoiding battling each other and just going for the quickest boss kill. (instances now taking 10 minutes instead of 10 hours)
- so what to avoid: any game mechanic that turns PvP into mass PvE
We will miss you. AFAIK there won't be casting while moving.
However there will be probably instant casts? Who knows? I think they are pretty good if they are on cooldown. Not sure tho, nothing has been mentioned on this topic yet AFAIK.
WoW:
- Resilience
- You have to play the game as a second job to keep up. If you want to have fun, you sure as hell has to work for it.
Guild Wars 2:
- Combat mechanics
- No gear progression at all
- Zerg WvWvW with no rewards.
Defiance:
- Very little gear progression.
Warhammer Online:
- Not enough population.
all whats mentioned and too fucking smaller maps with too fewer objectives in them, i could go on for hours about how terrible guilwars 2 and WARs maps were with only 1 spawn in them (generally for GW2 anyway) and the funneling of players, the zergball back and forthbetween the southern towers in GW2 gets old, with a proper designed map thats alot larger, this wouldn't happen. variety is key to keeping playing long term in pvp, and the southern zerg isnt that. also the map was a cluster fuck and you could only really place siege at certain points and most of the time you could shell from inside your own fortifications...le boring...bring back big open terrains and large maps.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
instant spawning,no death penalty I.E Death Simulation,dying is not dying its actually fast travel to armors dealer etc I.E death rewarding.
Let's internet
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Some pet hates of mine.
The homogenisation of classes, i.e. ensuring all classes are relatively tanky, have plenty of CC, can do a lot of damage, and have a (self)heal or two. This is born from imbalance fear, WoW slowly removed the contrast between roles, Guild Wars took this a qantum step further, giving the industry something that it wasn't asking for. Glass cannons that can tank is an example of this homogenisation.
Skill systems conducive to spam. See no punishing interupt system. The first point i made is also loosely linked to this. To make roles like the glass cannon that is actually a glass cannon work, the timing of interupts needs to define outcomes. WAR was an example of this done very poorly, it encouraged button mashing and simple 1-2-3-4 routines rather than emphasis on situational, timed counterattacks based on what your opponent does.
Video killed the radio star, and cross-server killed the community, then instanteous travel and anywhere-in-the-world queueing for instanced PvP proceeded to piss on its grave. The death of spontaneous PvP events such as dare i say it, griefing, by making games where you are able to PvP without ever leaving the capital city (rendering 90% of the in-game world useless and unused). This takes away spontaneous PvP encounters in the open world, where the emotional stakes are greatly increased because player A has a primary objective other than PvP e.g. gathering crafting mats, or travelling to the other side of the zone. When player A stumbles across opposition player B going for that same node, or travelling across his path, the emotion of the outcome is amplified.
Simple tenants of knowing thy enemy, and losing having consequence play a huge part in the feel of PvP. I am not advocating hardcore PvP consequences, but theres a lot more emotion involved in defeating your arch enemy than a player or guild you've barely seen before from another server, or steamrolling another group for access to a key crafting element etc.
This, this a thousand times this!!
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
You should change the title to "What game mechanics make noobs QQ".
Main reason why PvP isn't as good in many newer games is they are built so is almost impossible for players to make mistakes through execution or poor decision making. Unfortunately this is something thats lost on 99% of MMO players, so MMOs will still just be grinding stats/gear/abilities then facerolling.
CU hopefully will at least be fun.
Good one! and so unfortunately true. Games are being made for everyone, to faceroll everything without even thinking. That's why I hate all new games.
In general, they get too repetetive.
This was definitely the case in WoW, where the game wasn't built for RvR. Battlegrounds quickly became boring, and combat rarely felt like it mattered. The insta-respawn made death feel annoying, and killing someone rarely felt that good.
Same problem with WAR in the battlegrounds. WAR had many issues, RvR wasn't really among the biggest ones. 2 factions was clearly a mistake though, and the strategic elements of combat were far, far from DAoC and EVE.
EVE has great context for PvP, and quite a lot of stategic elements. The tactical elements are lacking though, and combat is pretty dull and shallow compared to, say, DAoC.
As for DAoC itself, it failed with ToA of course, and the gear grind that followed. It separated the strength of players more than necessary. Then, New Frontiers made a ton of bad decisions, by homogenizing almost all RAs, and making the PvP areas flatter and duller. Introducing water and underwater fighting was also a huge mistake.
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Recently I've seen a few people say that CD is bad for a PvP game.
Could someone please explain why they feel this? Personally I loved it in WAR as it made tanks useable.
1. Long duration stuns, fears, or anything that removes the ability to interact with your character without appropriate immunity timers, or item/spell cures. (I'M LOOKING AT YOU WORLD OF WARCRAFT)
2. World of Warcraft
Absolute biggest thing? Instancing/Arenas.
Second? Slapping a FFA pvp system on a PvE game that wasn't purposefully designed for it.
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
I always thought that CD was a great idea and fairly enjoyed it in WAR. I also thought it gaves Tanks a 'purpose' or role to play that was more than just lumbering around. Of course, I played a healer, so what do I know?
Someone made the point in another post here that changed my thinking on it a bit by explaining that far from givng tanks a 'role', it pigeon-holed them into doing only one thing, and that was standing in front of a choke point. They were no longer viable for any other form of protection or damage, they were essentially just another 'door' to beat through for the enemy. If I were to play a tank, I could definitely understand why this would suck.
They also pointed out that it failed to punish healers / casters for bad positioning, and planning. As long as they stood behind the tank, they didn't really have to do much else but stand there and mash 1,2,3 - (or whatever else their rotation might have been).
It encouraged lazy play and no planning. Everything boiled down to 1) Stick your tanks in front of a choke point, 2) Everyone else stand behind them and mash buttons, 3) melee dps - take your shots where you can.
After looking at it that way, it took a lot of the skill out of things, a lot of tactics that *could* have been employed were effectively destroyed for having to use one tactic, which I listed above.
I would say now that while I was previously *for* CD... I will most definitely be bringing up these flaws with it in IT and going forward. If MJ is dead set on implementing it, he needs to be aware of the many many flaws there are with it and address them right away.
Balancing is fine....but classes will.never be truly balanced. Developers need to stop catering to all the crybabies that are bad at their classes.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Yep. Sticking on instanced PvP as an afterthought that will always be balanced around PvE crap was the death of pure RvR.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.