Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
Oh i would probabely look less on my skill bar if i had to stand still i mean i have to see if anyone is coming at me from any angle,
if i can just run around i would just spam lesser skills and keep kiting that way were i see its cleared while looking at skillbar to see when i can use the better skills.
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
It is always the case. All casting while moving does is turn PvP into a festival of rabbits, as everyone is jumping all over the place casting their spells. This = silly and no fun.
If you're looking at your skill-bar... you're doing it wrong.
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
Oh i would probabely look less on my skill bar if i had to stand still i mean i have to see if anyone is coming at me from any angle,
if i can just run around i would just spam lesser skills and keep kiting that way were i see its cleared while looking at skillbar to see when i can use the better skills.
You know that made no sense. If you stand still it means movement and position is not really imporant you are the target of an attack and will be hit no matter what. It turns into WoW, just wait for cooldown and attack.
With movement you HAVE to look at your surroundings otherwise feel the sweet release of death...
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
It is always the case. All casting while moving does is turn PvP into a festival of rabbits, as everyone is jumping all over the place casting their spells. This = silly and no fun.
If you're looking at your skill-bar... you're doing it wrong.
Lol nope it doesn't. You saying it doesn't make it a reality. You can have pvp with movement that does not eliminate the usefulness of non-ranged classes. If you play it that way doesn't mean everyone does.
The other option is like WoW, look at skill bar and wait for cooldowns. Only move when target is out of reach or to go out of reach...
This was definitely the case in WoW, where the game wasn't built for RvR. Battlegrounds quickly became boring, and combat rarely felt like it mattered. The insta-respawn made death feel annoying, and killing someone rarely felt that good.
I would tend to disagree in one point here: The aforementioned vanilla Alterac Valley battleground (being closest in size to a RvR lake in WAR) did something right here that kept people excited in battles over hours and hours and also over many months (personally that was the only of PvP I enjoyed after coming via DaoC and moving on to WAR):
- Multiple opjectives braking up the zerg
- necessity to work on smaller objectives like the mines or gathering leather in order to get a potential game decider = Boss mob spawn
- Ranking list (up to General/Warlord) and connected rewards/permanent title kept people interested over longer time
- Token loot system from your slain enemies
For me it was really the fact that if one side was able to deploy their forces properly, i.e. sending stealthers to certain objectives, sending smaller groups out to conquer others while a correctly sized defensive group was holding objectives you were actually able to beat the Zerg. This was something that DoaC did right before New Frontiers as well, however I haven't seen this in RvR centred games after (WAR/GW2)
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
It is always the case. All casting while moving does is turn PvP into a festival of rabbits, as everyone is jumping all over the place casting their spells. This = silly and no fun.
If you're looking at your skill-bar... you're doing it wrong.
Lol nope it doesn't. You saying it doesn't make it a reality. You can have pvp with movement that does not eliminate the usefulness of non-ranged classes. If you play it that way doesn't mean everyone does.
The other option is like WoW, look at skill bar and wait for cooldowns. Only move when target is out of reach or to go out of reach...
If WoW is what you're basing your beliefs on, you need to get out more. WoW is a PvE game with PvP tacked on... not a good example.
- keep trading where you never see enemy players (or rarely)
- no CC (only way for a small group to stand any chance against larger force)
- culling ala GW2
- poor performance with large number of players in same area
- buffbots
- jack of all trades classes rather than specific roles (even if class has choice between specific roles thats better than being able to do everything)
- instant respawn / back into fight - endless tug of war between spawn points because you get back into fight too fast
- instanced PVP - areas or bgs, hate instanced pvp - I want it to feel real and a part of the real game world, not some fake/arbitrary area
- group sizes too small - mmmmmm I miss 8 person groups... now games go for 3, 4, or 5 meh
- no meaningful benefits to greater world from pvp/rvr - need some incentives to fight
- gear creep where gear becomes more important than skill in pvp/rvr
- mirrored classes - same classes just reskinned to look different between realms... I know it helps with balance, but still.... brings no "flavor" to the realms
- too easy to respec to FOTM specs - you should pick one, and get good at it, and get noteriety from your foes and allies for it...
-no sting from death - need some kind of penalty, even if its just time wasted traveling back... don't want it to be too harsh, but other games theres literally NO penalty, and you don't care if you die
- not sure how I feel about collision detection, but some people are diehard for it, others are diehard against it
- stealthers - same as above, I know some are diehard for, and some diehard against
No diminishing returns on stuns/roots/knockdowns. It's not fun being able to do nothing to defend yourself while PvPing.
2 faction systems do not work for a PvP game. 1 side gets too large because you have these fairweather people jumping on that side blowing up the already dominant side which kills the smaller side.
What game mechanics have ruined pvp in other mmos? what else.....mirroring classes for the sake of balance. You get a little bit of balance from that but end up with the same limited clases on every faction with a different name. That reduces replayability from each side's perspective by a lot. Everyone is the same and being gear based make it worse when everyone is the same.
What else? mmmmh, gear based pvp. If i spend a lot of time learning my class and i get slaughtered by the new guy who was just geared up by his guild friends that is bullshit. Make pvp based on real player skill or it will always suck.
Im personally a PvE player, and will stay a PvE player until i try a really meaningful PvP based on player skill and not a sad mirror from every side of the spectrum. Different factions from different continents? they didnt go to combat lessons together, how come they learned the exact same moves and tricks? stop mirroring classes.....
Recently I've seen a few people say that CD is bad for a PvP game.
Could someone please explain why they feel this? Personally I loved it in WAR as it made tanks useable.
I always thought that CD was a great idea and fairly enjoyed it in WAR. I also thought it gaves Tanks a 'purpose' or role to play that was more than just lumbering around. Of course, I played a healer, so what do I know?
Someone made the point in another post here that changed my thinking on it a bit by explaining that far from givng tanks a 'role', it pigeon-holed them into doing only one thing, and that was standing in front of a choke point. They were no longer viable for any other form of protection or damage, they were essentially just another 'door' to beat through for the enemy. If I were to play a tank, I could definitely understand why this would suck.
They also pointed out that it failed to punish healers / casters for bad positioning, and planning. As long as they stood behind the tank, they didn't really have to do much else but stand there and mash 1,2,3 - (or whatever else their rotation might have been).
It encouraged lazy play and no planning. Everything boiled down to 1) Stick your tanks in front of a choke point, 2) Everyone else stand behind them and mash buttons, 3) melee dps - take your shots where you can.
After looking at it that way, it took a lot of the skill out of things, a lot of tactics that *could* have been employed were effectively destroyed for having to use one tactic, which I listed above.
I would say now that while I was previously *for* CD... I will most definitely be bringing up these flaws with it in IT and going forward. If MJ is dead set on implementing it, he needs to be aware of the many many flaws there are with it and address them right away.
Glad you understood what I was trying to explain, most people don't and escape back to the " ITS MORE REAL " excuse to add it, gotta look at big picture for things like CD that can drastically change how combat is approached.
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
It is always the case. All casting while moving does is turn PvP into a festival of rabbits, as everyone is jumping all over the place casting their spells. This = silly and no fun.
If you're looking at your skill-bar... you're doing it wrong.
Lol nope it doesn't. You saying it doesn't make it a reality. You can have pvp with movement that does not eliminate the usefulness of non-ranged classes. If you play it that way doesn't mean everyone does.
The other option is like WoW, look at skill bar and wait for cooldowns. Only move when target is out of reach or to go out of reach...
If WoW is what you're basing your beliefs on, you need to get out more. WoW is a PvE game with PvP tacked on... not a good example.
WoW was aside from the point that casting while moving is NOT a problem that happens in every game.
- keep trading where you never see enemy players (or rarely)
- no CC (only way for a small group to stand any chance against larger force)
- culling ala GW2
- poor performance with large number of players in same area
- buffbots
- jack of all trades classes rather than specific roles (even if class has choice between specific roles thats better than being able to do everything)
- instant respawn / back into fight - endless tug of war between spawn points because you get back into fight too fast
- instanced PVP - areas or bgs, hate instanced pvp - I want it to feel real and a part of the real game world, not some fake/arbitrary area
- group sizes too small - mmmmmm I miss 8 person groups... now games go for 3, 4, or 5 meh
- no meaningful benefits to greater world from pvp/rvr - need some incentives to fight
- gear creep where gear becomes more important than skill in pvp/rvr
- mirrored classes - same classes just reskinned to look different between realms... I know it helps with balance, but still.... brings no "flavor" to the realms
- too easy to respec to FOTM specs - you should pick one, and get good at it, and get noteriety from your foes and allies for it...
-no sting from death - need some kind of penalty, even if its just time wasted traveling back... don't want it to be too harsh, but other games theres literally NO penalty, and you don't care if you die
- not sure how I feel about collision detection, but some people are diehard for it, others are diehard against it
- stealthers - same as above, I know some are diehard for, and some diehard against
Why only 3? maybe go above that? Is there any mmo that has attempted more than 3?
Not sure if anyone has attempted more than 3, however 3 adds a major benefit of controlling the over powered realms, with 4 theres just more options to isolate the low pop because you don't have to partner with them to take on the big guy, you can partner with the other mid realm.
Originally posted by Kuppa OP why is casting while moving a problem???
Because it encourages kiting, and thus minimizes or eliminates the usefulness of non-ranged classes.
You say it like it's always the case. When well executed this is not a problem and offers skill play and more fun(to some), instead of static gameplay based on looking at your skillbar.
Oh i would probabely look less on my skill bar if i had to stand still i mean i have to see if anyone is coming at me from any angle,
if i can just run around i would just spam lesser skills and keep kiting that way were i see its cleared while looking at skillbar to see when i can use the better skills.
You know that made no sense. If you stand still it means movement and position is not really imporant you are the target of an attack and will be hit no matter what. It turns into WoW, just wait for cooldown and attack.
With movement you HAVE to look at your surroundings otherwise feel the sweet release of death...
yes becouse the enemy can only come from infront of you when standing still, if mages are allowed to run around and cast their spells how do you catch them as a melee char?
if you solve that riddle maybe it can be in game, that or lets say the spells only take 1% hp each attack. ( but who the hell would want that ^_^ )
Not sure if anyone has attempted more than 3, however 3 adds a major benefit of controlling the over powered realms, with 4 theres just more options to isolate the low pop because you don't have to partner with them to take on the big guy, you can partner with the other mid realm.I dunno I think 3 is the best, controls a lot.
I'm not sure about that. I think more than 3 realms could help balance things even further. The main problem is that it adds more work to develop classes and artwork for more realms. If classes aren't mirrored, balance becomes an even trickier issue with more realms.
- keep trading where you never see enemy players (or rarely)
- no CC (only way for a small group to stand any chance against larger force)
- culling ala GW2
- poor performance with large number of players in same area
- buffbots
- jack of all trades classes rather than specific roles (even if class has choice between specific roles thats better than being able to do everything)
- instant respawn / back into fight - endless tug of war between spawn points because you get back into fight too fast
- instanced PVP - areas or bgs, hate instanced pvp - I want it to feel real and a part of the real game world, not some fake/arbitrary area
- group sizes too small - mmmmmm I miss 8 person groups... now games go for 3, 4, or 5 meh
- no meaningful benefits to greater world from pvp/rvr - need some incentives to fight
- gear creep where gear becomes more important than skill in pvp/rvr
- mirrored classes - same classes just reskinned to look different between realms... I know it helps with balance, but still.... brings no "flavor" to the realms
- too easy to respec to FOTM specs - you should pick one, and get good at it, and get noteriety from your foes and allies for it...
-no sting from death - need some kind of penalty, even if its just time wasted traveling back... don't want it to be too harsh, but other games theres literally NO penalty, and you don't care if you die
- not sure how I feel about collision detection, but some people are diehard for it, others are diehard against it
- stealthers - same as above, I know some are diehard for, and some diehard against
Why only 3? maybe go above that? Is there any mmo that has attempted more than 3?
I even like the more player driven faction system like in EVE far more than a 3 faction system. The amount of things that can happen... the politics, the betrayal, the amount of things that arise from alliances is one of the most interesting things I've ever experienced in an MMORPG. 3 faction systems are oversimplified and feel artificial to me.
If you want to feel "realm" pride in something you are a part of, try helping to build and/or be part of a player driven faction/alliance. Developer driven factions remove the intrigue and variance. It's always "us vs. them" instead of the more subtle, intricate relationships that can and should exist in my opinion.
We are all alike because we picked an option!
vs.
We are all alike because we chose to accept each other and have common goals!
any positive feedback, losers walk mentality mechanics. If winning enables you to more easily win, what happens? Somebody wins! Then what? The winners are left to flip keeps and gang-bang solos who are fool enough to wander out in the battlefield! Accept that as a truth. In a MMO it's no simple feat to jump on another side to keep the game going. You cannot design a game that is not supposed to end like a game that ends and starts over. Three factions will not change this, this is something that must be dealt with in the raw mechanics....it won't be but one can hope.
As a Veteran-MMO gamer (boast boast) it's very easy to say:
Repetitive maps - Auto-generated PvP-Maps, how awesome would that be? Bring it
Gear grind - no gear with stats works best, see GW2 or other PvP-Games
Rock, Paper, Scissor no doubt - pure PvP-titles dont have such a feature. Every class can beat every class. Done
Pure Healer classes - "Are you serious, Healing is fun!" No doubt, but we are here to meet ourselves at fairness when it comes to sports. So? We dont want unfair match-makins where one side has no healer. Everyone can heal himself.
No consequences - vary Age of Conan's Crime System to add more spice!
No impact on the overall world - ArcheAge will bring a brilliant example with court and prisons
Make it not too unforgiving as AoC is. The abusive PvP in AoC scared so many players away, it's insane.
and Most important: Make it possible to beat multiple opponents at once by how well you manage to play your class. Having the feeling of being able to beat only one Player at a time feels very restricted. I know this is very hard to implement, especially when every class can beat every class. That being said, burst and clever CD-usage has to be a key factor.
Now, bring this into an MMO and you really have an outstanding Game. If you like the idea and want more detail? Feel free to contact me and offer me a well-paid job, with enough creative freedom.
In addition to the many items brought up I would like to add the dumbing down (general dumbing down of MMOs would be a much longer post) of stats and classes in general. The EVE learning curve image that is still floating around the internet is a great illustration of this. Basically if you think about the huge amount of depth that game has in terms of ship types, fittings, mods, weapon types, skill reqs, balancing your power and cpu usage, etc you have something that creates an enormous amount of possiblities and allows people to completely shoot themselves in the foot if they fail to get it. Look at DAoC and you originallly had resists that mattered, resists to magical types of damage as well as to types of physical damage. Additionally I don't remember there being any cursor that told you what class they were, you had to figure that out by what race they were, what armor/weapons they had, what abilities they used, etc. It even helped to figure out what spec they were as there was not simply one spec to rule them, this allowed for the emergence of sub-classes rather than the relatively cookie cutter X class system most games have now. The skill point system and broader skill set in general made this possible but the notion of 3 or 4 "trees" in other games only per class killed this and in many cases only made 1 or 2 viable options. Damage types have been reduced to either physical or maybe 4ish types of magical, as opposed to say 5 or 6 magical types and at least 3 physical types. Useful stats have been reduced to number 4 (con/str/dex/int) rather than 6 (str/dex/con/int/wis/char) and once again this detracts from the many possiblities of what could have been.
In short, I want to see depth make a comeback in MMOs, or at the very least in MMOs I hope to play.
Wow... I feel out of place here. I'm an old school PvP'er and my views seem to be completely different.
What game mechanics have ruined PvP in other MMO's?
1) The Holy Trinity - For me this has ruined PvP in more MMO's than any other mechanic is the histroy of gaming. The first issue it has caused is the whole rock, paper, scissor balancing act crap. Every class has to be weak to another class to balance things out. This creates a situation where PvP is largely decided by what class or classes you are facing rather than whom. It completely ruins 1 vs. 1 dueling, 2 vs. 2 and 3 vs. 3 matches. Its all about the classes you are facing rather than whom and their skill level. Next is the fact that the trinity drags combat out beyond what it needs to be. If you are doing 5 vs. 5 the rule is focus down the healer then engage in combat. Both sides are doing this repeatedly.
Whats the point of PvP if my class simply beats yours regardless of our skill differences or vice versa? If I or you win simply because my or your class can't compete with the other, what is the victory worth? If I or you lose simply because we didn't have a healer that match, what is the victory worth?
2) Levels - This has always been asinine to me. I would have played many games for the Open world PvP servers if levels didn't exist. Essentially you are a wipping boy until you get to cap, then you can finally be on par with others and simply wtfpwn anyone 5 or more levels below you. Thats asinine and again I must ask, what is the victory against lower level players worth?
3) Gear - This little mechanic likes to come into play after the level mechanics just to screw with you some more. Alright, finally I'm level 50! So now I'm on par and can compete with other capped level players! Wrong, because they obtained their rank 1337 PvP prestiege gear of noob slaying already and you have to go through this asinine grind to get it before you can compete. When you are decimating others simply because you have better gear, again I must ask... what is the victory worth?
4) Stealth - Don't get me wrong here, I actually like stealth. The problem I have is how its used. Thanks to the god awful existance of the holy trinity rock paper scissor crap stealth is used as a means of allowing squishy rouges to compete with their scissor, rock or paper (Which ever they are meant to counter at the time). So yeah, I have a problem with the backstab stun insta kill crap that has become of stealthed in trinity.
Thats my short list. These are the top 4 things that have ruined PvP in other MMO's for me. I could easily give you 20 more, but these are the main ones.
Comments
Oh i would probabely look less on my skill bar if i had to stand still i mean i have to see if anyone is coming at me from any angle,
if i can just run around i would just spam lesser skills and keep kiting that way were i see its cleared while looking at skillbar to see when i can use the better skills.
It is always the case. All casting while moving does is turn PvP into a festival of rabbits, as everyone is jumping all over the place casting their spells. This = silly and no fun.
If you're looking at your skill-bar... you're doing it wrong.
You know that made no sense. If you stand still it means movement and position is not really imporant you are the target of an attack and will be hit no matter what. It turns into WoW, just wait for cooldown and attack.
With movement you HAVE to look at your surroundings otherwise feel the sweet release of death...
Lol nope it doesn't. You saying it doesn't make it a reality. You can have pvp with movement that does not eliminate the usefulness of non-ranged classes. If you play it that way doesn't mean everyone does.
The other option is like WoW, look at skill bar and wait for cooldowns. Only move when target is out of reach or to go out of reach...
I would tend to disagree in one point here: The aforementioned vanilla Alterac Valley battleground (being closest in size to a RvR lake in WAR) did something right here that kept people excited in battles over hours and hours and also over many months (personally that was the only of PvP I enjoyed after coming via DaoC and moving on to WAR):
- Multiple opjectives braking up the zerg
- necessity to work on smaller objectives like the mines or gathering leather in order to get a potential game decider = Boss mob spawn
- Ranking list (up to General/Warlord) and connected rewards/permanent title kept people interested over longer time
- Token loot system from your slain enemies
For me it was really the fact that if one side was able to deploy their forces properly, i.e. sending stealthers to certain objectives, sending smaller groups out to conquer others while a correctly sized defensive group was holding objectives you were actually able to beat the Zerg. This was something that DoaC did right before New Frontiers as well, however I haven't seen this in RvR centred games after (WAR/GW2)
If WoW is what you're basing your beliefs on, you need to get out more. WoW is a PvE game with PvP tacked on... not a good example.
1v1 balance. And then after homogenising all classes, they add in absurd stats on gear that breaks the balance they have strived so hard to acheive.
I would prefer a rock, paper, scissors set up in an mmo.
- 2 faction instead of 3
- keep trading where you never see enemy players (or rarely)
- no CC (only way for a small group to stand any chance against larger force)
- culling ala GW2
- poor performance with large number of players in same area
- buffbots
- jack of all trades classes rather than specific roles (even if class has choice between specific roles thats better than being able to do everything)
- instant respawn / back into fight - endless tug of war between spawn points because you get back into fight too fast
- instanced PVP - areas or bgs, hate instanced pvp - I want it to feel real and a part of the real game world, not some fake/arbitrary area
- group sizes too small - mmmmmm I miss 8 person groups... now games go for 3, 4, or 5 meh
- no meaningful benefits to greater world from pvp/rvr - need some incentives to fight
- gear creep where gear becomes more important than skill in pvp/rvr
- mirrored classes - same classes just reskinned to look different between realms... I know it helps with balance, but still.... brings no "flavor" to the realms
- too easy to respec to FOTM specs - you should pick one, and get good at it, and get noteriety from your foes and allies for it...
-no sting from death - need some kind of penalty, even if its just time wasted traveling back... don't want it to be too harsh, but other games theres literally NO penalty, and you don't care if you die
- not sure how I feel about collision detection, but some people are diehard for it, others are diehard against it
- stealthers - same as above, I know some are diehard for, and some diehard against
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
No diminishing returns on stuns/roots/knockdowns. It's not fun being able to do nothing to defend yourself while PvPing.
2 faction systems do not work for a PvP game. 1 side gets too large because you have these fairweather people jumping on that side blowing up the already dominant side which kills the smaller side.
- Taking away the Guard and Protect skills for tanks, I really liked that in DAoC.
What game mechanics have ruined pvp in other mmos? what else.....mirroring classes for the sake of balance. You get a little bit of balance from that but end up with the same limited clases on every faction with a different name. That reduces replayability from each side's perspective by a lot. Everyone is the same and being gear based make it worse when everyone is the same.
What else? mmmmh, gear based pvp. If i spend a lot of time learning my class and i get slaughtered by the new guy who was just geared up by his guild friends that is bullshit. Make pvp based on real player skill or it will always suck.
Im personally a PvE player, and will stay a PvE player until i try a really meaningful PvP based on player skill and not a sad mirror from every side of the spectrum. Different factions from different continents? they didnt go to combat lessons together, how come they learned the exact same moves and tricks? stop mirroring classes.....
Glad you understood what I was trying to explain, most people don't and escape back to the " ITS MORE REAL " excuse to add it, gotta look at big picture for things like CD that can drastically change how combat is approached.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
WoW was aside from the point that casting while moving is NOT a problem that happens in every game.
Why only 3? maybe go above that? Is there any mmo that has attempted more than 3?
Not sure if anyone has attempted more than 3, however 3 adds a major benefit of controlling the over powered realms, with 4 theres just more options to isolate the low pop because you don't have to partner with them to take on the big guy, you can partner with the other mid realm.
I dunno I think 3 is the best, controls a lot.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
yes becouse the enemy can only come from infront of you when standing still, if mages are allowed to run around and cast their spells how do you catch them as a melee char?
if you solve that riddle maybe it can be in game, that or lets say the spells only take 1% hp each attack. ( but who the hell would want that ^_^ )
I'm not sure about that. I think more than 3 realms could help balance things even further. The main problem is that it adds more work to develop classes and artwork for more realms. If classes aren't mirrored, balance becomes an even trickier issue with more realms.I even like the more player driven faction system like in EVE far more than a 3 faction system. The amount of things that can happen... the politics, the betrayal, the amount of things that arise from alliances is one of the most interesting things I've ever experienced in an MMORPG. 3 faction systems are oversimplified and feel artificial to me.
If you want to feel "realm" pride in something you are a part of, try helping to build and/or be part of a player driven faction/alliance. Developer driven factions remove the intrigue and variance. It's always "us vs. them" instead of the more subtle, intricate relationships that can and should exist in my opinion.
We are all alike because we picked an option!
vs.
We are all alike because we chose to accept each other and have common goals!
What game mechanics have ruined PvP in other MMO's?
As a Veteran-MMO gamer (boast boast) it's very easy to say:
Now, bring this into an MMO and you really have an outstanding Game. If you like the idea and want more detail? Feel free to contact me and offer me a well-paid job, with enough creative freedom.
We, appreciate it.
In addition to the many items brought up I would like to add the dumbing down (general dumbing down of MMOs would be a much longer post) of stats and classes in general. The EVE learning curve image that is still floating around the internet is a great illustration of this. Basically if you think about the huge amount of depth that game has in terms of ship types, fittings, mods, weapon types, skill reqs, balancing your power and cpu usage, etc you have something that creates an enormous amount of possiblities and allows people to completely shoot themselves in the foot if they fail to get it. Look at DAoC and you originallly had resists that mattered, resists to magical types of damage as well as to types of physical damage. Additionally I don't remember there being any cursor that told you what class they were, you had to figure that out by what race they were, what armor/weapons they had, what abilities they used, etc. It even helped to figure out what spec they were as there was not simply one spec to rule them, this allowed for the emergence of sub-classes rather than the relatively cookie cutter X class system most games have now. The skill point system and broader skill set in general made this possible but the notion of 3 or 4 "trees" in other games only per class killed this and in many cases only made 1 or 2 viable options. Damage types have been reduced to either physical or maybe 4ish types of magical, as opposed to say 5 or 6 magical types and at least 3 physical types. Useful stats have been reduced to number 4 (con/str/dex/int) rather than 6 (str/dex/con/int/wis/char) and once again this detracts from the many possiblities of what could have been.
In short, I want to see depth make a comeback in MMOs, or at the very least in MMOs I hope to play.
cc+cc+cc then dead
arenas = repetition
no realm ranks WITH rewards... killing = no reward
Nothing for the realm to defend or gain collectively
Wow... I feel out of place here. I'm an old school PvP'er and my views seem to be completely different.
What game mechanics have ruined PvP in other MMO's?
1) The Holy Trinity - For me this has ruined PvP in more MMO's than any other mechanic is the histroy of gaming. The first issue it has caused is the whole rock, paper, scissor balancing act crap. Every class has to be weak to another class to balance things out. This creates a situation where PvP is largely decided by what class or classes you are facing rather than whom. It completely ruins 1 vs. 1 dueling, 2 vs. 2 and 3 vs. 3 matches. Its all about the classes you are facing rather than whom and their skill level. Next is the fact that the trinity drags combat out beyond what it needs to be. If you are doing 5 vs. 5 the rule is focus down the healer then engage in combat. Both sides are doing this repeatedly.
Whats the point of PvP if my class simply beats yours regardless of our skill differences or vice versa? If I or you win simply because my or your class can't compete with the other, what is the victory worth? If I or you lose simply because we didn't have a healer that match, what is the victory worth?
2) Levels - This has always been asinine to me. I would have played many games for the Open world PvP servers if levels didn't exist. Essentially you are a wipping boy until you get to cap, then you can finally be on par with others and simply wtfpwn anyone 5 or more levels below you. Thats asinine and again I must ask, what is the victory against lower level players worth?
3) Gear - This little mechanic likes to come into play after the level mechanics just to screw with you some more. Alright, finally I'm level 50! So now I'm on par and can compete with other capped level players! Wrong, because they obtained their rank 1337 PvP prestiege gear of noob slaying already and you have to go through this asinine grind to get it before you can compete. When you are decimating others simply because you have better gear, again I must ask... what is the victory worth?
4) Stealth - Don't get me wrong here, I actually like stealth. The problem I have is how its used. Thanks to the god awful existance of the holy trinity rock paper scissor crap stealth is used as a means of allowing squishy rouges to compete with their scissor, rock or paper (Which ever they are meant to counter at the time). So yeah, I have a problem with the backstab stun insta kill crap that has become of stealthed in trinity.
Thats my short list. These are the top 4 things that have ruined PvP in other MMO's for me. I could easily give you 20 more, but these are the main ones.