When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
There is a huge difference between just watching or reading something and actually having to participate. It is way easier to lose yourself in a movie or a book. You don't have to actually do anything. In a MMORPG you participate on a constant basis so it is very easy to be reminded how "fake" the world is.
The attitude toward mmo's has changed over time and the "old timers" can't figure out why so they blame all the new stuff. Their lack of immersion, what ever that means to them, has not been caused by dungeon finders or faster leveling or whatever. It's being bored of doing the same shiz over and over. It was great "way back when" only because it was new to humanity. Humans must advance or we get bored. We always hit a tech wall right after a tech speed boost. Hell yeah you old timers thought you had it good. You were playing with Pick Up Sticks before mmo's came out!
You're partially correct, in that technology has been advancing for all MMOs. It's the creativity which has gone backward, as megacorps have been repeatedly copying the "same shiz over and over" thinking this is the formula for MMO success.
Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and Eve Online are examples of games that didn't follow the text MUD trend.
Everquest and then Warcraft went for the tried-and-true MUD formula and improved on it. When Warcraft hit incredible success, everyone ran with the MUD formula from that point on, and thus was born the "same shiz" until the present day.
Keep an eye out for Star Citizen, where we will see Chris Roberts re-introduce the world to creative game design with a focus on world immersion.
I don't like all these new tools because they take people out of the game world. With Dungeon Finder it teleports a group to the Dungeon, correct? (not sure since I have never used one) Well that takes away the requirement that the group has to actually travel to the dungeon. The side effect of this is that other players don't encounter that group and the group itself is not vulnerable to attack.
So many MMORPGs have built these beautiful worlds and then they try to find every possible way to make sure that people don't have to travel through it. You've got teleports, recalls, portals, flying unicorns, wagons, trains, and all manner of goofy stuff. Even worse you have Battlegrounds, the absolute worst idea ever added to an MMORPG. You take all the PVP and put it in this nice little boring arena. Bleh. By doing this people only spend their time in certain portions of this virtual world, usually instanced. That means much less player interaction, and a SEVERE reduction in PVP (i refuse to use the abominable term: world pvp).
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Originally posted by Adamai Ok without boreing you. Immersion = realism in game. If it doesnt feel real from a mevhanics point of view then the emersion is gone. Thats practically what emersion is . People want to be part of the game world as if it were real.. Dungeon finders = not realistic.
Let me bring you in on a little secret:
MMORPGs = not realistic
Everything in a MMORPG is not realistic because they are games. We are simply willing to suspend our disbelief enough that we can immerse ourself in the unrealism of it. Realisticly most of the players in a fantasy MMORPG would be peasants who work their fields all day and never leave their village. It is unrealistic for the characters to all go adventuring and exploring dungeons and fighting dragons.
Let me bring you in on a little secret
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
keyword - Role Playing Game
Define Role Play
to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation inan effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction:
When people say realistic on a gaming forum. Don't take it so literally. People seem to forget for some reason that realism can exist within the parameters of the game.
I fully understand that when people say "realistic" on this forum they actually mean "feature I like" and use "unrealistic" to describe features they do not like. I are perfectly fine with unreaslistic features if they fit in with their view how the game has to be played but as soon as another feature is suggested that they disagree with, it si "unrealistic" and "breaks immersion".
So you're claiming that when a player says its immersion breaking its just because they dont like it..
and yet in the comment above you say..
Realism in an MMORPG is not realistic because they are games..
i cant tell if you want to make a point or just argue.
Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?
Honestly... the argument that something 'breaks immersion' is one of the worst ones we have in games.
This basically gets into suspension of disbelief, and is something that largely applies to movies over games. Simple put, 'immersion' is mostly beneficial to games that are trying to tell a story to the detriment of everything else. People looking for this are looking for an interactive movie, and not necessarily a game. Games, on the other hand, have to make sacrifices in some of these areas if they want to have good gameplay.
There are definitely some exceptions (i.e. Daeus Ex, Shadow of the Collosus, and certain other RPGs), but that's mostly the reality of the beast. And of those exceptions, pretty much all of them are centered around stories that support the gameplay, and visa versa.
When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
There is a huge difference between just watching or reading something and actually having to participate. It is way easier to lose yourself in a movie or a book. You don't have to actually do anything. In a MMORPG you participate on a constant basis so it is very easy to be reminded how "fake" the world is.
Before there were books or movies (ancient days), there was group storytelling, and that's really the tradition we are talking about. Tabletop roleplaying games actually owe a lot to the tradition. Computers have come along, and we've been experimenting with them as a medium to replicate the group storytelling experience (with mixed success - you could argue that Zork was more "immersive") Another group has been experimenting with them as pure game vechicles (e.g. PacMan - little imagination required). For group storytelling, I'd argue that they get in the way more than they facilitate. "Old timers" will argue that the earlier games tried harder to replicate that tabletop experience, but there really isn't a computer replacement for straight imagination.
I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Immersion is the ability to pull you into the game world. This includes story, lore, combat, and all aspects of the game THAT STAY TRUE TO AN ACTUAL WORLD.
Dungeon finders that put you in groups with players from another world breaks that rule to me. Especially if you have no contact with that other world normally. If its a RVR server, then it doesnt break this rule that badly. Everyone from the other real should be your enemy, thus not able to group with them. But its not that bad if its allowed.
1) YOu haven't heard of parallel dimensions? They are all over sci-fi and fantasy. So what if you pull some people from another parallel universe and group with them. Why should that break immersion?
2) Secondly, even if it does, most don't care. I don't care. I am using a MOUSE to control a animated graphical elf on a 2D computer screen. It is not like you don't know you are playing a video game. It is not like you feel you are walking when your legs are not even moving.
When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
I pay attention of where i sit, and whether i get a good view .. then i emerge in the story of the movie. Not very different from clicking on LFD, figure out what i want to play, then go in .. and immerse myself in a 30 min dungeon run.
When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
I pay attention of where i sit, and whether i get a good view .. then i emerge in the story of the movie. Not very different from clicking on LFD, figure out what i want to play, then go in .. and immerse myself in a 30 min dungeon run.
I think your Idea of immersion is really weird. Just an opinion. They way you have it sound is so generic. Your immersion starts when you get into the dungeon, while mine starts as soon as i have control of my character. Even if im only logging on to check if items on the auction house sold, im still immersed in the game. Immersion shouldnt start when you want it to, its something thats happening as long as your in game.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
I pay attention of where i sit, and whether i get a good view .. then i emerge in the story of the movie. Not very different from clicking on LFD, figure out what i want to play, then go in .. and immerse myself in a 30 min dungeon run.
I think your Idea of immersion is really weird. Just an opinion. They way you have it sound is so generic. Your immersion starts when you get into the dungeon, while mine starts as soon as i have control of my character. Even if im only logging on to check if items on the auction house sold, im still immersed in the game. Immersion shouldnt start when you want it to, its something thats happening as long as your in game.
My "immersion" starts when i get into the "play session". Whether it is LFD into the dungeon, or a lobby game into a pvp arena .. is similar.
And why would it be weird? You never pause your TV, get a drink, and go back to "immersing in the story"? Never pause a game?
If immersion is part of the fun, damn right that i am turning it on and off as i wish. Heck, i even tab out of games to look at and update work, and then go back.
When you go to a movie, do you get overly attached to thinking that you are sitting in a seat and that there is a light projector showing images on the screen? When you read a book, do you focus more on the bound paper and ink in front of you?
Or do you actually pay attention to the story being told?
I pay attention of where i sit, and whether i get a good view .. then i emerge in the story of the movie. Not very different from clicking on LFD, figure out what i want to play, then go in .. and immerse myself in a 30 min dungeon run.
I think your Idea of immersion is really weird. Just an opinion. They way you have it sound is so generic. Your immersion starts when you get into the dungeon, while mine starts as soon as i have control of my character. Even if im only logging on to check if items on the auction house sold, im still immersed in the game. Immersion shouldnt start when you want it to, its something thats happening as long as your in game.
My "immersion" starts when i get into the "play session". Whether it is LFD into the dungeon, or a lobby game into a pvp arena .. is similar.
And why would it be weird? You never pause your TV, get a drink, and go back to "immersing in the story"? Never pause a game?
If immersion is part of the fun, damn right that i am turning it on and off as i wish. Heck, i even tab out of games to look at and update work, and then go back.
So you use immersion breakers actually as immersion builders and when you pause your TV then you get immersed when its paused,this is interesting and it is bit weird but interesting.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Two things I've learned after years of browsing forums like these: 1. Immersion is important to almost everyone. 2. Almost everyone defines immersion differently.
I can only speak for myself and explain what immerses me the most. For me, it's all about how naturally my character fits in and interacts with the virtual world, and how captivating that world is. I won't tell any lengthy anecdotal stories like I have in other threads. I will simply say that my background begins with FFXI and then transitioned into WoW. While the cartoony style of WoW was a huge barrier for me initially, all of the distraction that came with that melted away the moment I first plummeted into a pond. As my camera dipped beneath the water's surface, I was completely drawn into the world in a way that FFXI had never managed. This continued as I jumped up the great Night Elf tree atop Teldrassil and hopped down onto the roofs below. I was free to interact with the world and environment, and it felt so liberating. My interaction with the world and its characters extended through the quest system. Each NPC had a story, and I played an integral role in that story. I don't hesitate to say I was deeply "immersed" right from the get-go.
If I were to give a quick definition for immersion, I would say it is that period where you lose yourself in the game; where you forget you're a human sitting there with a mouse in one hand, keyboard in the other, starting at a monitor; where, for a moment, you are the character in the game, exploring a new world gleefully.
One thing I do know, however, is that having to get up to go to the bathroom IRL is and always will be the biggest immersion breaker ever.
Firstly, I can't believe that I read through most all of this. But, more interesting to me is that in all this talk (though I did see some make allusion to it there was no sourced post that I noticed) I have not seen an actual definition of the word presented.
...With that in mind (sourced from the Oxfrod Dictionary of English) here is the actual definition of immersion:
Immersion n. [mass noun] 1 the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid: his back was still raw from immersion in the icy Atlantic sea.
- baptism by immersing a person bodily (but not necessarily completely)) in water.
2 deep mental involvement: her total immersion in work meant that she had few real friends.
- a method of teachinga foreign language by the exclusive use of that language.
3 [ASTRONOMY] the disappearence of a ceslestial body in the shadow of or behind another.
<ORIGIN> late 15th century: from late Latin immersio(n-), from immergere 'dip into' (see IMMERSE).
It actually does go on to describe the word immersion in use as an adjetive in relation to a computer or display system generating a three-dimensional image which apears to surround the user.
I feel that is important to post here for reference as it expands upon what many have stated that they 'take it to mean'. Notice, definition 2 talks about learning through doing (essentially). So an MMOG's emmersiveness could also be talked about in respects to how we involve our selves in learning how to play it. An MMOG could rightly be considered more immersive if you learn functions of the game less by documentation and more by actually doing an action relevant to what it pertains to within the game. So how easy and intuitive a game is to get into plays a big part.
Interestingly enough this can mean that the more generic of MMOG may have agreater level of immersiveness as we play more and more of them. This being, because having their engine, physics and controls work almost intuitively (given we already know how to use them having played the 'last 3 games like this'), means that we can jump right into them with little or no thought as to how to actually do things. Since we can associate any thing the game does differently to past experiences as well. And, since these games often mask shallow depth of play, storyline, and content with good graphics and sound.
It is reasonable to say that there is also an industry formula for false-immersivness. Where in we are presented an experience that is easy to get into and remain emmersed in. But, is not nescessarily engaging or enjoyable in the long run.
It is also possible by this that emmersivness as a factor has it breaking points, and we should not fully rely on a game ability to get us there as a definative factor for its level of enjoyability.
The attitude toward mmo's has changed over time and the "old timers" can't figure out why so they blame all the new stuff. Their lack of immersion, what ever that means to them, has not been caused by dungeon finders or faster leveling or whatever. It's being bored of doing the same shiz over and over. It was great "way back when" only because it was new to humanity. Humans must advance or we get bored. We always hit a tech wall right after a tech speed boost. Hell yeah you old timers thought you had it good. You were playing with Pick Up Sticks before mmo's came out!
There is no way to go back to that era unless we erase from our brains every mmo we ever played. The newness has worn off and it is not the dungeon finder's fault.
But yeah, someone need to define "immersion" if we continue to use the euphemism.
Sorry....but this is BS.
You could say the same about anyone who has played any game ever. Be it an FPS, RPG, RTS, MMORPG, etc.
It's the FACT that MMORPG's have become shells of their former selves. They've become funneled/linear reward handout games where players are more concerned with being "1st" in every category and racing to "end game"...where the game starts now, where as it started when you loaded and entered the world in older ones.
The term "end game" didn't exist in the time before WoW. Players weren't concerned with it...as exploration of the world, making adventure buddies, and just engaging in the many avenues that were available to occupy yourself (PvP..although not as big then, exploration, grinding mobs as loot was much more random, crafting that meant something, bartering, etc.) than getting to cap. End game is not a term that belongs in an MMORPG IMO. That is what console games are for...they have clear cut and deliberate endings. MMORPG's are meant to be never ending adventures.
Being at the level cap post-WoW meant something...as it took a lot of time and effort to get to it. Now if you are at cap it means nothing, as capped out players are a dime a dozen after a month out from release in most MMORPG's.
Lastly...I find it laughable many say grind sucks from old MMORPG's...where as said above....loot tables were more randomized...so you could get nice surprise drops from time to time on top of nice xp. Sure..grinding isn't for everyone, but you don't have to do it either in those old games if you didn't want to...as quests were endlessly found throughout the world, new areas to explore, etc.
Now you are funneled from one quest hub to the next where loot is set in place in an area, so grinding is pointless and surprises are nill.
Anyways, I must ask....what do you think raiding "end game" in modern MMORPG's is? I've done it (Since there is almost nothing to do once you hit cap now anyways except reroll), and it is definitely grinding the same content over and over no matter how you want to try and explain it.
Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion".
I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general.
Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's.
I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa.
So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?
This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.
Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?
You say you love competition and you want to be on top... Do you realize that a lot of these features that you embrace makes that much less meaningful? Cross server dungeon finders, cross server battleground matchmaking... I don't even feel I should have to explain the many, many ways these features as well as other features completely destroy that. If you don't have a sense of tight knit community or community period, then it's hard to be known as the top dog.
Originally posted by Ortwig I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Well in the context of the world why didn't Gandalf just call in that favor from the Eagles sooner and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom to drop the ring in? Not a teleporter but that is fast travel and it did exist in the universe as it is utilized in the books at one point.
People also keep pointing out "realism" in the most absurd sense. So 1+1 can't equal -8 in a universe where I can conjure fire and lightning and demons out of the very air? Why do they have to use the same math system? Also people talk about "physics," once again they don't have to conform to our world since it very clearly isn't meant to be our world, isn't that the whole point of immersing yourself in these other worlds you crave so badly?
Originally posted by Ortwig I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Originally posted by Ortwig I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Also this.
Which is absolutely impossible for developers to try to achieve.
Originally posted by Ortwig I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Also this.
Which is absolutely impossible for developers to try to achieve.
NO, which is impossible for business men to try to achieve...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
The french language example used is a good example. For MMO immersion, here is a brand new MMO. It has 10 classes and 2000 specials, unlimited combinations and gear to accent those combinations.
Three weeks later, wiki says this is the optimal fit for each class, it's all clutter. Welcome to cookie cutter online.
Nobody needs to immerse themselves, nobody needs to learn anything. Math is math, kiss it all good-bye.
Originally posted by Ortwig I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Well in the context of the world why didn't Gandalf just call in that favor from the Eagles sooner and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom to drop the ring in? Not a teleporter but that is fast travel and it did exist in the universe as it is utilized in the books at one point.
People also keep pointing out "realism" in the most absurd sense. So 1+1 can't equal -8 in a universe where I can conjure fire and lightning and demons out of the very air? Why do they have to use the same math system? Also people talk about "physics," once again they don't have to conform to our world since it very clearly isn't meant to be our world, isn't that the whole point of immersing yourself in these other worlds you crave so badly?
The eagles would have been spotted and shot out of the sky if they were to attempt it, probably by the Nazgul. As it was, the war in Gondor distracted Sauron (and the Nazgul) enough for the hobbits to slip in undetected. But that isn't even the point. The point is that the story would have been 10 pages long and very uninteresting. Easing "difficulty" is a slippery slope, and if you go too far with it, you are left with a 10 page, very uninteresting novel. The same goes for a game; on the other end of the spectrum, I don't want to have to play out in a game every time I hit the restroom, or act out every single meal, but a game that takes the need for food into account, or the weight of my gear is more "realistic" and possibly more interesting, depending on how it is implemented. I remember very clearly when we started questioning in our old D&D days, whether we could transport a million gold pieces out of a dungeon with 5 characters -- hence "bags of holding."
The point here is that a game can be more "interesting" or "immersive" when there are difficulties or challenges to overcome. The other end of the spectrum is to make everything too difficult and a slog to play.
As far as the physics of the world goes, it all depends on whether it jives with the lore and the world context. Better novels and games tend to have rules for their magic, and don't blindly allow magic to do anything and everything. A world like that would be chaotic, and "uninteresting." It's these rules (fictional though they are), that build in challenge and difficutly. It's finding that combination of things that allow you to overcome the challenge that makes them "immersive."
The more a novel or game breaks its own rules, the more uninteresting the novel or game becomes. We can argue about whether dungeon finders are good or bad, but in the end it's an argument about whether introducing them has broken the fictional rules the game has established.
Comments
There is a huge difference between just watching or reading something and actually having to participate. It is way easier to lose yourself in a movie or a book. You don't have to actually do anything. In a MMORPG you participate on a constant basis so it is very easy to be reminded how "fake" the world is.
You're partially correct, in that technology has been advancing for all MMOs. It's the creativity which has gone backward, as megacorps have been repeatedly copying the "same shiz over and over" thinking this is the formula for MMO success.
Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and Eve Online are examples of games that didn't follow the text MUD trend.
Everquest and then Warcraft went for the tried-and-true MUD formula and improved on it. When Warcraft hit incredible success, everyone ran with the MUD formula from that point on, and thus was born the "same shiz" until the present day.
Keep an eye out for Star Citizen, where we will see Chris Roberts re-introduce the world to creative game design with a focus on world immersion.
I don't like all these new tools because they take people out of the game world. With Dungeon Finder it teleports a group to the Dungeon, correct? (not sure since I have never used one) Well that takes away the requirement that the group has to actually travel to the dungeon. The side effect of this is that other players don't encounter that group and the group itself is not vulnerable to attack.
So many MMORPGs have built these beautiful worlds and then they try to find every possible way to make sure that people don't have to travel through it. You've got teleports, recalls, portals, flying unicorns, wagons, trains, and all manner of goofy stuff. Even worse you have Battlegrounds, the absolute worst idea ever added to an MMORPG. You take all the PVP and put it in this nice little boring arena. Bleh. By doing this people only spend their time in certain portions of this virtual world, usually instanced. That means much less player interaction, and a SEVERE reduction in PVP (i refuse to use the abominable term: world pvp).
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
So you're claiming that when a player says its immersion breaking its just because they dont like it..
and yet in the comment above you say..
Realism in an MMORPG is not realistic because they are games..
i cant tell if you want to make a point or just argue.
Honestly... the argument that something 'breaks immersion' is one of the worst ones we have in games.
This basically gets into suspension of disbelief, and is something that largely applies to movies over games. Simple put, 'immersion' is mostly beneficial to games that are trying to tell a story to the detriment of everything else. People looking for this are looking for an interactive movie, and not necessarily a game. Games, on the other hand, have to make sacrifices in some of these areas if they want to have good gameplay.
There are definitely some exceptions (i.e. Daeus Ex, Shadow of the Collosus, and certain other RPGs), but that's mostly the reality of the beast. And of those exceptions, pretty much all of them are centered around stories that support the gameplay, and visa versa.
Before there were books or movies (ancient days), there was group storytelling, and that's really the tradition we are talking about. Tabletop roleplaying games actually owe a lot to the tradition. Computers have come along, and we've been experimenting with them as a medium to replicate the group storytelling experience (with mixed success - you could argue that Zork was more "immersive") Another group has been experimenting with them as pure game vechicles (e.g. PacMan - little imagination required). For group storytelling, I'd argue that they get in the way more than they facilitate. "Old timers" will argue that the earlier games tried harder to replicate that tabletop experience, but there really isn't a computer replacement for straight imagination.
I pay attention of where i sit, and whether i get a good view .. then i emerge in the story of the movie. Not very different from clicking on LFD, figure out what i want to play, then go in .. and immerse myself in a 30 min dungeon run.
I think your Idea of immersion is really weird. Just an opinion. They way you have it sound is so generic. Your immersion starts when you get into the dungeon, while mine starts as soon as i have control of my character. Even if im only logging on to check if items on the auction house sold, im still immersed in the game. Immersion shouldnt start when you want it to, its something thats happening as long as your in game.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
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My "immersion" starts when i get into the "play session". Whether it is LFD into the dungeon, or a lobby game into a pvp arena .. is similar.
And why would it be weird? You never pause your TV, get a drink, and go back to "immersing in the story"? Never pause a game?
If immersion is part of the fun, damn right that i am turning it on and off as i wish. Heck, i even tab out of games to look at and update work, and then go back.
So you use immersion breakers actually as immersion builders and when you pause your TV then you get immersed when its paused,this is interesting and it is bit weird but interesting.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Dungeon findering is totally an immersion breaker.
/1 to ask for a dungeon across the whole server is where immersion is at.
- Yours Truly,
Old Schooler
Two things I've learned after years of browsing forums like these: 1. Immersion is important to almost everyone. 2. Almost everyone defines immersion differently.
I can only speak for myself and explain what immerses me the most. For me, it's all about how naturally my character fits in and interacts with the virtual world, and how captivating that world is. I won't tell any lengthy anecdotal stories like I have in other threads. I will simply say that my background begins with FFXI and then transitioned into WoW. While the cartoony style of WoW was a huge barrier for me initially, all of the distraction that came with that melted away the moment I first plummeted into a pond. As my camera dipped beneath the water's surface, I was completely drawn into the world in a way that FFXI had never managed. This continued as I jumped up the great Night Elf tree atop Teldrassil and hopped down onto the roofs below. I was free to interact with the world and environment, and it felt so liberating. My interaction with the world and its characters extended through the quest system. Each NPC had a story, and I played an integral role in that story. I don't hesitate to say I was deeply "immersed" right from the get-go.
If I were to give a quick definition for immersion, I would say it is that period where you lose yourself in the game; where you forget you're a human sitting there with a mouse in one hand, keyboard in the other, starting at a monitor; where, for a moment, you are the character in the game, exploring a new world gleefully.
One thing I do know, however, is that having to get up to go to the bathroom IRL is and always will be the biggest immersion breaker ever.
Firstly, I can't believe that I read through most all of this. But, more interesting to me is that in all this talk (though I did see some make allusion to it there was no sourced post that I noticed) I have not seen an actual definition of the word presented.
...With that in mind (sourced from the Oxfrod Dictionary of English) here is the actual definition of immersion:
Immersion n. [mass noun] 1 the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid: his back was still raw from immersion in the icy Atlantic sea.
- baptism by immersing a person bodily (but not necessarily completely)) in water.
2 deep mental involvement: her total immersion in work meant that she had few real friends.
- a method of teachinga foreign language by the exclusive use of that language.
3 [ASTRONOMY] the disappearence of a ceslestial body in the shadow of or behind another.
<ORIGIN> late 15th century: from late Latin immersio(n-), from immergere 'dip into' (see IMMERSE).
It actually does go on to describe the word immersion in use as an adjetive in relation to a computer or display system generating a three-dimensional image which apears to surround the user.
I feel that is important to post here for reference as it expands upon what many have stated that they 'take it to mean'. Notice, definition 2 talks about learning through doing (essentially). So an MMOG's emmersiveness could also be talked about in respects to how we involve our selves in learning how to play it. An MMOG could rightly be considered more immersive if you learn functions of the game less by documentation and more by actually doing an action relevant to what it pertains to within the game. So how easy and intuitive a game is to get into plays a big part.
Interestingly enough this can mean that the more generic of MMOG may have agreater level of immersiveness as we play more and more of them. This being, because having their engine, physics and controls work almost intuitively (given we already know how to use them having played the 'last 3 games like this'), means that we can jump right into them with little or no thought as to how to actually do things. Since we can associate any thing the game does differently to past experiences as well. And, since these games often mask shallow depth of play, storyline, and content with good graphics and sound.
It is reasonable to say that there is also an industry formula for false-immersivness. Where in we are presented an experience that is easy to get into and remain emmersed in. But, is not nescessarily engaging or enjoyable in the long run.
It is also possible by this that emmersivness as a factor has it breaking points, and we should not fully rely on a game ability to get us there as a definative factor for its level of enjoyability.
Sorry....but this is BS.
You could say the same about anyone who has played any game ever. Be it an FPS, RPG, RTS, MMORPG, etc.
It's the FACT that MMORPG's have become shells of their former selves. They've become funneled/linear reward handout games where players are more concerned with being "1st" in every category and racing to "end game"...where the game starts now, where as it started when you loaded and entered the world in older ones.
The term "end game" didn't exist in the time before WoW. Players weren't concerned with it...as exploration of the world, making adventure buddies, and just engaging in the many avenues that were available to occupy yourself (PvP..although not as big then, exploration, grinding mobs as loot was much more random, crafting that meant something, bartering, etc.) than getting to cap. End game is not a term that belongs in an MMORPG IMO. That is what console games are for...they have clear cut and deliberate endings. MMORPG's are meant to be never ending adventures.
Being at the level cap post-WoW meant something...as it took a lot of time and effort to get to it. Now if you are at cap it means nothing, as capped out players are a dime a dozen after a month out from release in most MMORPG's.
Lastly...I find it laughable many say grind sucks from old MMORPG's...where as said above....loot tables were more randomized...so you could get nice surprise drops from time to time on top of nice xp. Sure..grinding isn't for everyone, but you don't have to do it either in those old games if you didn't want to...as quests were endlessly found throughout the world, new areas to explore, etc.
Now you are funneled from one quest hub to the next where loot is set in place in an area, so grinding is pointless and surprises are nill.
Anyways, I must ask....what do you think raiding "end game" in modern MMORPG's is? I've done it (Since there is almost nothing to do once you hit cap now anyways except reroll), and it is definitely grinding the same content over and over no matter how you want to try and explain it.
You say you love competition and you want to be on top... Do you realize that a lot of these features that you embrace makes that much less meaningful? Cross server dungeon finders, cross server battleground matchmaking... I don't even feel I should have to explain the many, many ways these features as well as other features completely destroy that. If you don't have a sense of tight knit community or community period, then it's hard to be known as the top dog.
Well in the context of the world why didn't Gandalf just call in that favor from the Eagles sooner and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom to drop the ring in? Not a teleporter but that is fast travel and it did exist in the universe as it is utilized in the books at one point.
People also keep pointing out "realism" in the most absurd sense. So 1+1 can't equal -8 in a universe where I can conjure fire and lightning and demons out of the very air? Why do they have to use the same math system? Also people talk about "physics," once again they don't have to conform to our world since it very clearly isn't meant to be our world, isn't that the whole point of immersing yourself in these other worlds you crave so badly?
Originally posted by Ortwig
I think one of the earlier posts on this thread hit the mark when it mentioned Frodo teleporting to Mount Doom to drop off the ring. A big part of "immersion" is the threshold of difficulty and challenge in the world. We've got this scale between "realism" (within the context of the world) and convenience (efficient gameplay that doesn't bog you down as a player) and finding that "perfect" (very subjective) balance between the two.
Also this.
Which is absolutely impossible for developers to try to achieve.
NO, which is impossible for business men to try to achieve...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immersion
The french language example used is a good example. For MMO immersion, here is a brand new MMO. It has 10 classes and 2000 specials, unlimited combinations and gear to accent those combinations.
Three weeks later, wiki says this is the optimal fit for each class, it's all clutter. Welcome to cookie cutter online.
Nobody needs to immerse themselves, nobody needs to learn anything. Math is math, kiss it all good-bye.
The eagles would have been spotted and shot out of the sky if they were to attempt it, probably by the Nazgul. As it was, the war in Gondor distracted Sauron (and the Nazgul) enough for the hobbits to slip in undetected. But that isn't even the point. The point is that the story would have been 10 pages long and very uninteresting. Easing "difficulty" is a slippery slope, and if you go too far with it, you are left with a 10 page, very uninteresting novel. The same goes for a game; on the other end of the spectrum, I don't want to have to play out in a game every time I hit the restroom, or act out every single meal, but a game that takes the need for food into account, or the weight of my gear is more "realistic" and possibly more interesting, depending on how it is implemented. I remember very clearly when we started questioning in our old D&D days, whether we could transport a million gold pieces out of a dungeon with 5 characters -- hence "bags of holding."
The point here is that a game can be more "interesting" or "immersive" when there are difficulties or challenges to overcome. The other end of the spectrum is to make everything too difficult and a slog to play.
As far as the physics of the world goes, it all depends on whether it jives with the lore and the world context. Better novels and games tend to have rules for their magic, and don't blindly allow magic to do anything and everything. A world like that would be chaotic, and "uninteresting." It's these rules (fictional though they are), that build in challenge and difficutly. It's finding that combination of things that allow you to overcome the challenge that makes them "immersive."
The more a novel or game breaks its own rules, the more uninteresting the novel or game becomes. We can argue about whether dungeon finders are good or bad, but in the end it's an argument about whether introducing them has broken the fictional rules the game has established.